Basically, the pendulum, like any dynamic system has a natural frequency (period). This period is trivial to measure: all the DIY experimenter needs is a stopwatch to measure the period of oscillation.,
If the forcing function has the same frequency (period) as the natural frequency (period) of the pendulum, one should get a resonant response whose amplitude is only limited by the damping in the dynamic system.
The experimenter should pulse the EM Drive at the same frequency of the pendulum, just like pushing on a swing at the right frequency swings a child to ever higher amplitudes.
This is a very intelligent suggestion.
If there is no resonant response, there is no EM Drive thrust. Simple.
Just received the precision 250 Ω resistor, 0.1% tolerance, with ferrite choke from Dataq. This should greatly reduce the interference with the laser displacement sensor.
Good idea, add X,Y level bubbles and "remove and wine" and I have a vertical laser line. Note, it's best to remove any fluids from the glass before you turn the stem horizontally to shine the laser into.
The only problem I see with using a line rather than a laser dot is that post processing the laser dot to extract information is easier than the straight line. It's more a complication than a problem. The signal to noise ratio will be higher and the process more tedious.
Just received the precision 250 Ω resistor, 0.1% tolerance, with ferrite choke from Dataq. This should greatly reduce the interference with the laser displacement sensor.
Good idea, add X,Y level bubbles and "remove and wine" and I have a vertical laser line. Note, it's best to remove any fluids from the glass before you turn the stem horizontally to shine the laser into.
The only problem I see with using a line rather than a laser dot is that post processing the laser dot to extract information is easier than the straight line. It's more a complication than a problem. The signal to noise ratio will be higher and the process more tedious.
If you limit the perception of the sensor so that it only sees a small length along the ruler, such that the line appears as a dot, would this solve the problem for the sensor? It would be like putting blinders on a horse.
Dielectric insert for Dave's build: Dave's build is 80.015% smaller than the NASA frustum by volume. 80.015% volume of the NASA dielectric insert = 833.283 ccs. Matching the reduced diameter/height ratio to the reduced volume was time consuming or (@#$%&*). At any rate came very close on the volume and a little off on the ratio: .00474% and .0345%. Glad both builds are shaped differently! LOL Insert dimensions = 14.4 cm D x 5.1408 cm L![]()
PS: thanks to Monomorphic for exact dimensions!!!
FattyLumpkin, you sent me a message asking for the latest Cannae patent featuring a dielectric. Here it is:
http://www.google.com/patents/WO2016004044A1?cl=en
From that document, I pick out the phrase:
"The preferred embodiment is capable of generating 40-50 μΝ of force when 30 watts of power is transmitted into the waveguide as the EM energy."
Layman's question: Is that significant in the same magnitude that Shawyer was indicating? Just trying to understand the scale of claims here.
Thanks,
J
Dielectric insert for Dave's build: Dave's build is 80.015% smaller than the NASA frustum by volume. 80.015% volume of the NASA dielectric insert = 833.283 ccs. Matching the reduced diameter/height ratio to the reduced volume was time consuming or (@#$%&*). At any rate came very close on the volume and a little off on the ratio: .00474% and .0345%. Glad both builds are shaped differently! LOL Insert dimensions = 14.4 cm D x 5.1408 cm L![]()
PS: thanks to Monomorphic for exact dimensions!!!
FattyLumpkin, you sent me a message asking for the latest Cannae patent featuring a dielectric. Here it is:
http://www.google.com/patents/WO2016004044A1?cl=en
Dielectric insert for Dave's build: Dave's build is 80.015% smaller than the NASA frustum by volume. 80.015% volume of the NASA dielectric insert = 833.283 ccs. Matching the reduced diameter/height ratio to the reduced volume was time consuming or (@#$%&*). At any rate came very close on the volume and a little off on the ratio: .00474% and .0345%. Glad both builds are shaped differently! LOL Insert dimensions = 14.4 cm D x 5.1408 cm L![]()
PS: thanks to Monomorphic for exact dimensions!!!
FattyLumpkin, you sent me a message asking for the latest Cannae patent featuring a dielectric. Here it is:
http://www.google.com/patents/WO2016004044A1?cl=en
This patent should not have been granted and is likely unenforceable. It's based on prior published work by White et. al., announced on July 28, 2014. Cannae filed the patent nearly a year later (June 30, 2015) while claiming a priority date of June 30, 2014, conveniently a few weeks before White's publication.
Therefore, one first step would be to keep these wires in a thermally and electromagnetically steady state. This could be done by keeping the magnetron filament heated steadily and only switching on the high voltage when needed. Thus the experimenter could allow the wires (and the magnetron filament) to reach a steady temperature, let the system settle, and then start pulsing the high voltage (e.g. with an appropriate high voltage relay).
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Hello @rfmwguy,
thanks for the parameters in your previous post, and thanks to TheTraveller for reposting a pic and contextualizing your setup so that we clearly see that the center of mass (of moving assembly) is indeed much too low (compared to attachment point of suspension wire on it) to allow any swinging even remotely in the minute period.
( bigger )
Wikipedia is not the ultimate reference and I'm not immune to blunders, but I think the following is correct for a simplified model of a thin beam of length B swinging in pitch (horizontal axis orthogonal to beam, above it), neglecting any other mass (mast and guy wire for illustration only) please see attached picture and equations.
(1) The moment of inertia of axis orthogonal to beam through center of mass CM. Third entry here.
(2) Moment of inertia around pivot, through parallel axis theorem.
(3) Period of a compound pendulum and replacement by expression in (2)
(4) I wan't to consider a given length of beam B and ask about the needed distance L of CM under pivot to have a given T, so I use B as a natural unit of length and express the problem in the dimensionless ratio L/B noted as lambda. The smaller the lambda the closer is CM from pivot ( the more "flattish" the overall proportions will look ). As it stands, on my illustrations lambda is 0.5, but equations hold for whatever, I'm solving for lambda actually. We already see that for very big lambda the left term (in the root) rules and we'd get the usual T=2 pi sqrt(L/g) as a swinging period, as we approach the conditions of a punctual mass (B small relative to L), this means having the bigger lambda (longer L) possible to get a longer period. For very small lambda the 1/(12 lambda) term will rule and then we will want a lambda as small as possible to get a longer period. That's why I wrote in previous post that "... period can be made arbitrarily long without having km sized suspension wire, actually by lowering the distance of center of mass below the pivot ...". Hopefully this is now more rigorously substantiated.
(5) Solving for lambda with auxiliary dimensionless gamma introduced for commodity.
(6) Long story short, a high value of lambda (meaning : aiming at T much higher that the minimum one) allows as first order approximation (checked to be within at least 2 decimals with typical values used below) those 2 real (physically admissible) solutions :
-> lambda2 giving a very long distance of CM below the pivot (compared to a given fixed B), again we check that the usual T=2 pi sqrt(L/g) would then prevail.
-> lambda1 giving a very short distance of CM below the pivot (compared to a given fixed B).
So what does it mean ? Well, after all that I realize after reading again your post that we still lack the vertical positions of masses, and that most of the mass is not homogeneously spread in a thin beam geometry. Sigh. Oh well, I'll just find a roughly equivalent thin beam : let's say that the most mass is concentrated in the 2 lumps of the test article and the dampener and let's pretend they are at same altitude, that makes for a two points body with a moment of inertia ICM=mrČ where r is distance from axis r≈30''=0.762m. For all practical matter this is equivalent with a beam (of the simplified model above) with B such that mBČ/12=mrČ => B=2sqrt(3)r≈2.64m (total span).
So we can roughly solve your system for L (aiming at some gigh valued T) with modeled compound pendulum formulas using B=2.64m :
T=1minute=60s => gamma≈339 (this checks that this is high enough to make (6) good approximations)
-> lambda2≈339 => L≈895m that needs some hell of a high ceiling.
-> lambda1≈2.46Ś10-4 => L≈0.65mm (millimeter) that means some rather finicky tuning of height of masses really close to instability (like in some high precision balances). Clearly you are not in this case. Intuitively I expected something more in the cm, it always pays to check.
This confirms that in your experiment the only axis that can oscillate meaningfully on minute long periods is the yaw, driven by the weak restoring torque of the torsion wire. Of course this is ignoring damping, a severely over-damped system (damper immersed in thick honey for instance) could easily have time periods above 5 minutes in any axis, but those would no longer oscillate ! If it oscillates at all then we know that the period of such damped oscillations can't be far from un-damped ones, as calculated above. I also remained ignorant of the stiffness (in bending) of the suspension wire, the pivot may be found higher (meaning even higher L => lower T for lambda1 solution).
Onward...

Therefore, one first step would be to keep these wires in a thermally and electromagnetically steady state. This could be done by keeping the magnetron filament heated steadily and only switching on the high voltage when needed. Thus the experimenter could allow the wires (and the magnetron filament) to reach a steady temperature, let the system settle, and then start pulsing the high voltage (e.g. with an appropriate high voltage relay).
...
Since high voltage relays rated for the power levels involved tend to be very specialized (transmitter applications and such) and therefore really expensive, another way may be better:
Transformers from old microwave ovens are cheap and easy to come by, so one can just use two of them. Let one transformer supply only the filament (with the high voltage winding left not connected), while a second transformer supplies only the high voltage (with the filament winding going nowhere). That way the problem of switching the high voltage can be moved to the primary (mains) side, where it's easy to solve with commonly available affordable relays.
As a positive side effect, using a separate transformer would make the filament current independent form the magnetron power. Microwave transformers have magnetic shunts in order to provide a crude way of current limiting. The output voltages on these transformers are not very "stiff", but rather (intentionally) the opposite: as the current being drawn is increased, the voltage will drop a lot. This also has a side effect on the filament - when the anode current is turned on, the voltages of all transformer secondary windings will drop - thereby dropping the filament current in the process.
For a microwave oven application this is beneficial. The filament current automatically drops as soon as the magnetron warms up and starts generating microwaves. But for an EM drive test, the benefit is rather doubtful. One would rather prefer a really constant filament current in order to keep the various uncontrolled forces (thermo-mechanical and electromagnetic) acting on the lead wires steady, so that the high voltage can be pulsed without unintended side effects. In this case, using a second, independent, transformer would be a clear advantage for thermal stability.
P.S.
IIRC, Shell was building a power supply where the filament current was provided by some independently controlled / operated circuitry. That feature might come in useful one day
to suck off electrons whether it's DC or AC, it doesn't matter it will just be more stable with no AC added to the magnetron's output....
That's quite close to what I've done.
Using a "matched" set of microwave transformers (very important, if not smoke may ensue) in series, driven by a variable rheostat, which gives me a clean full wave rectified and filtered variable >4KV output.
The heater is driven by another transformer and then full wave rectifying the output. Filtering that for a clean DC voltage, to be voltage and current control no matter the loading on the dual transformers. The filament voltage and current can be switched off after a set time to further stabilize the water cooled magnetron. All we are interested in is heating the heaterto suck off electrons whether it's DC or AC, it doesn't matter it will just be more stable with no AC added to the magnetron's output.
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Since high voltage relays rated for the power levels involved tend to be very specialized (transmitter applications and such) and therefore really expensive, another way may be better:
Transformers from old microwave ovens are cheap and easy to come by, so one can just use two of them. Let one transformer supply only the filament (with the high voltage winding left not connected), while a second transformer supplies only the high voltage (with the filament winding going nowhere). That way the problem of switching the high voltage can be moved to the primary (mains) side, where it's easy to solve with commonly available affordable relays.
...
That's quite close to what I've done.
Using a "matched" set of microwave transformers (very important, if not smoke may ensue) in series, driven by a variable rheostat, which gives me a clean full wave rectified and filtered variable >4KV output.
The heater is driven by another transformer and then full wave rectifying the output. Filtering that for a clean DC voltage, to be voltage and current control no matter the loading on the dual transformers. The filament voltage and current can be switched off after a set time to further stabilize the water cooled magnetron. All we are interested in is heating the heaterto suck off electrons whether it's DC or AC, it doesn't matter it will just be more stable with no AC added to the magnetron's output.
...
Have you compared the two power supplies (AC Vs filtered DC) by recording the spectral output of the magnetron? Where is the noise and what kind of noise is it? Do you get a narrow band low phase noise output with the filtered DC supply?
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Do you get a narrow band low phase noise output with the filtered DC supply?
Since high voltage relays rated for the power levels involved tend to be very specialized (transmitter applications and such) and therefore really expensive, another way may be better:
Transformers from old microwave ovens are cheap and easy to come by, so one can just use two of them. Let one transformer supply only the filament (with the high voltage winding left not connected), while a second transformer supplies only the high voltage (with the filament winding going nowhere). That way the problem of switching the high voltage can be moved to the primary (mains) side, where it's easy to solve with commonly available affordable relays.
If you've ever taken apart a microwave oven (and I'm on #2 now), you will see that the power supply transformer already has two secondaries, one a low-voltage AC to keep the filament warm. The second is half-rectified into half-wave pulsed HVDC.