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#3240 by dustinthewind on 18 Jun, 2016 22:01
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Some articles I have found further supporting photons to possibly have mass.
"Are Photons Massless or Massive?" by GG Nyambuya
https://scholar.google.com/scholar?cluster=1687267117520942052&hl=en&as_sdt=0,48
"...Neutrinos appear very strongly to travel at the
speed of light and according to the afore-stated, they must be massless. Massless neutrinos have a
problem in that one is unable to explain the phenomenon of neutrino oscillations because this requires
massive neutrinos. Experiments appear to strongly suggest that indeed, neutrinos most
certainly are massive particles. While this solves the problem of neutrino oscillation, it directly
leads to another problem, namely that of “How can a massive particle travel at the speed of light? Is
not this speed a preserve and prerogative of only massless particles?”... "
"The Thermodynamic Universe" by Burra G.Sidharth
http://arxiv.org/abs/0802.3306
"The minimum mass ∼ 10−33eV or 10−65gms, has been shown by the author to be the mass of the photon"
Evidence for a photon mass by Burra G.Sidharth
https://scholar.google.com/scholar?cluster=8457535672555060566&hl=en&as_sdt=5,48&sciodt=0,48
citing links.
https://scholar.google.com/scholar?cites=8457535672555060566&as_sdt=5,48&sciodt=0,48&hl=en
probably more out there.
... I previously shared the paper below, perhaps it could seed your ideas even if it is about optical light...
In http://arxiv.org/abs/1603.07224 Photon mass drag and the momentum of light in a medium
...
"Can the Abraham Light Momentum and Energy in a Medium Constitute a Lorentz Four-Vector?" by Changbiao Wang
http://arxiv.org/abs/1409.4623
"Appendix C: Photon’s energy-associated mass and
momentum-associated mass in a dielectric medium
It is worthwhile to point out that, there are two
kinds of mass: (i) energy-associated mass mE , defined..."
Some interesting info in this area
more on the above article https://scholar.google.com/scholar?cites=6500259547396700745&as_sdt=5,48&sciodt=0,48&hl=en -
#3241 by FattyLumpkin on 19 Jun, 2016 00:27
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Thank you Doc. R. and X_Ray, still trying to learn. FL
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#3242 by FattyLumpkin on 19 Jun, 2016 01:00
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X_Ray, perhaps you can perform a sim for me with your FEKO lite (it doesn't appear to be too complicated) I'm sure you'll let me know though if it is. Attached you will find a quite flat frustum, which I imagine would be easy enough to work in your system. There may be a problem with the antenna though, because it/they are the same HDPE disks used in the NASA frustum and so thick. Since the frustum is so short, they are placed above as you see in the diagram. If your FEKO lite can work with this, I'd appreciate your giving it a try, and see if and how this cavity might resonate. I'd PM you with this, however it isn't possible to attach diagrams et al. in the PM function. The starting frequency is 1.8804 GHz and power starting at 2 Watts. Thank you , FL
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#3243 by Rodal on 19 Jun, 2016 01:19
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X_Ray, perhaps you can perform a sim for me with your FEKO lite (it doesn't appear to be too complicated) I'm sure you'll let me know though if it is. Attached you will find a quite flat frustum, which I imagine would be easy enough to work in your system. There may be a problem with the antenna though, because it/they are the same HDPE disks used in the NASA frustum and so thick. Since the frustum is so short, they are placed above as you see in the diagram. If your FEKO lite can work with this, I'd appreciate your giving it a try, and see if and how this cavity might resonate. I'd PM you with this, however it isn't possible to attach diagrams et al. in the PM function. The starting frequency is 1.8804 GHz and power starting at 2 Watts. Thank you , FL
what justifies:
1) this shape of frustum (length/diameter ratio = 1/7 )?
2) why is the HDPE outside rather than inside the truncated cone?
3) is this your take on the Cannae drive ? -
#3244 by FattyLumpkin on 19 Jun, 2016 02:11
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Hi Dr. Rodal, not a take on Cannae. Am interested to see how the NASA frustum might resonate if flattened---The volume of this cavity is identical to the NASA frustum top and bottom lengths determined by adding the original height to the bottom lengths. The height is that which achieves the same volume. The HDPE disks are taller/higher than the frustum itself as drawn and were therefore placed where you see them in the diagram (facing the inside). Does placing the disks in this location pose a problem? If so, do you have a suggestion as to what should I do to rectify it/this? Thanks, FL
PS: since this is a given quantity in it's original form, it might indeed be telling if "good" resonance were noted in the flattened form (similar to Cannae in the flatness, but the asymmetric components are located in the periphery) ,K -
#3245 by Rodal on 19 Jun, 2016 02:53
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Hi Dr. Rodal, not a take on Cannae. Am interested to see how the NASA frustum might resonate if flattened---The volume of this cavity is identical to the NASA frustum top and bottom lengths determined by adding the original height to the bottom lengths. The height is that which achieves the same volume. The HDPE disks are taller/higher than the frustum itself as drawn and were therefore placed where you see them in the diagram (facing the inside). Does placing the disks in this location pose a problem? If so, do you have a suggestion as to what should I do to rectify it/this? Thanks, FL
The HDPE better be inside the truncated cone. If you want you can make it thinner. For example preserving the same original ratio of
PS: since this is a given quantity in it's original form, it might indeed be telling if "good" resonance were noted in the flattened form (similar to Cannae in the flatness, but the asymmetric components are located in the periphery) ,K
total HDPE thickness/ Length -
#3246 by Mulletron on 19 Jun, 2016 05:18
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Same kind of experiment as the last video but with a cylindrical coil. As expected there's no linear movement.
Inventor D. S. Charrier with links to his publications. We've talked about his micronewton electromagnetic thruster before. Doesn't look like it works. Maybe it should be a cone.
http://scitation.aip.org/content/aip/journal/apl/101/3/10.1063/1.4737940
http://dscharrier.free.fr/publications.html
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#3247 by X_RaY on 19 Jun, 2016 07:50
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X_Ray, perhaps you can perform a sim for me with your FEKO lite (it doesn't appear to be too complicated) I'm sure you'll let me know though if it is. Attached you will find a quite flat frustum, which I imagine would be easy enough to work in your system. There may be a problem with the antenna though, because it/they are the same HDPE disks used in the NASA frustum and so thick. Since the frustum is so short, they are placed above as you see in the diagram. If your FEKO lite can work with this, I'd appreciate your giving it a try, and see if and how this cavity might resonate. I'd PM you with this, however it isn't possible to attach diagrams et al. in the PM function. The starting frequency is 1.8804 GHz and power starting at 2 Watts. Thank you , FL
Please let me ask:
1) Is it an mistake that the smaller end is indicated with a bigger number than the greater side ? The shape doesn't make sense regarding these numbers..
2) The dielectric plates are drawn at the outer side, is there a hole in the wall to couple the dielectrics and the metallic cavity? If yes, is the diameter of this hole in the wall equal to the diameter of the dielectric plates ? How thick is the metallic wall?
3)Do you think about metallic walls around and on top of the dielectric?
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#3248 by X_RaY on 19 Jun, 2016 10:08
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Just for fun, I swapped these two numbers and cut a hole in the upper plate with a diameter equal to the diameter of the dielectric..
First pic:
The dielectric is not covered with conductive material.
Secound pic:
The dielectric is covered with conductive material(PEC) at the outer side.
Wall currents and power over frequency plot indicate a low order whispering gallery mode at 1.74GHz.
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#3249 by dustinthewind on 19 Jun, 2016 11:12
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Morning coffee thoughts.
Some theories think that they increase the effective mass of the photon shifting the center of mass within the frustum leading to the effect we are seeing.
If that was the case we would see on a torsional pendulum an effect we could set up to see a defection of a laser. It would take a beam 90o splitter on the frustum and a laser on the fulcrum center pivot wire.
It would seem we're not testing all the axis's possible directional motions addressing the several theories put forth in a test.
Any thoughts?
Shell
edit
I was going to take a poke at what your saying Shell. That the laser light might get heavy as it passes through the cavity and change the path of the laser? The only problem might be that the laser light is a different frequency than the microwave light. If the more massive light had to do with the cutoff frequency via the dimensions of the cavity at the narrow end then it would be an effect of the wavelength. I have a feeling I am not really understanding what your trying to say though. -
#3250 by SeeShells on 19 Jun, 2016 14:27
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Morning coffee thoughts.
Some theories think that they increase the effective mass of the photon shifting the center of mass within the frustum leading to the effect we are seeing.
If that was the case we would see on a torsional pendulum an effect we could set up to see a defection of a laser. It would take a beam 90o splitter on the frustum and a laser on the fulcrum center pivot wire.
It would seem we're not testing all the axis's possible directional motions addressing the several theories put forth in a test.
Any thoughts?
Shell
edit
I was going to take a poke at what your saying Shell. That the laser light might get heavy as it passes through the cavity and change the path of the laser? The only problem might be that the laser light is a different frequency than the microwave light. If the more massive light had to do with the cutoff frequency via the dimensions of the cavity at the narrow end then it would be an effect of the wavelength. I have a feeling I am not really understanding what your trying to say though.
The laser doesn't go through the cavity but to a splitter on top of the frustum.
The split beam will allow measurement of rotational movements of the frustum in the X and Y plane.
Shell -
#3251 by rq3 on 19 Jun, 2016 14:47
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Same kind of experiment as the last video but with a cylindrical coil. As expected there's no linear movement.
Inventor D. S. Charrier with links to his publications. We've talked about his micronewton electromagnetic thruster before. Doesn't look like it works. Maybe it should be a cone.
http://scitation.aip.org/content/aip/journal/apl/101/3/10.1063/1.4737940
http://dscharrier.free.fr/publications.html
Looks like an electromagnetic "compass" to me, with the coil duty cycle tuned to pendulum torsion resonance. -
#3252 by Mulletron on 19 Jun, 2016 16:04
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Same kind of experiment as the last video but with a cylindrical coil. As expected there's no linear movement.
Inventor D. S. Charrier with links to his publications. We've talked about his micronewton electromagnetic thruster before. Doesn't look like it works. Maybe it should be a cone.
http://scitation.aip.org/content/aip/journal/apl/101/3/10.1063/1.4737940
http://dscharrier.free.fr/publications.html
Looks like an electromagnetic "compass" to me, with the coil duty cycle tuned to pendulum torsion resonance.
Yup. That's all it is. Just a compass. The cone shaped one on the previous page also twisted, but it had linear movement too. -
#3253 by zen-in on 19 Jun, 2016 16:15
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Same kind of experiment as the last video but with a cylindrical coil. As expected there's no linear movement.
Inventor D. S. Charrier with links to his publications. We've talked about his micronewton electromagnetic thruster before. Doesn't look like it works. Maybe it should be a cone.
http://scitation.aip.org/content/aip/journal/apl/101/3/10.1063/1.4737940
http://dscharrier.free.fr/publications.html
Fascinating video. It's always fun to see what an experimenter has come up with. I agree with what rq3 and Mullertron have said. This is a compass on a pendulum. No linear force can be generated with this kind of apparatus. -
#3254 by Mulletron on 19 Jun, 2016 16:26
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The cylinder coil video is unremarkable. The difference is obvious. The cone coil video linear movement still could be an artifact caused by the moment of inertia. Easy to build both and see.
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#3255 by rq3 on 19 Jun, 2016 16:41
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Same kind of experiment as the last video but with a cylindrical coil. As expected there's no linear movement.
Inventor D. S. Charrier with links to his publications. We've talked about his micronewton electromagnetic thruster before. Doesn't look like it works. Maybe it should be a cone.
http://scitation.aip.org/content/aip/journal/apl/101/3/10.1063/1.4737940
http://dscharrier.free.fr/publications.html
Fascinating video. It's always fun to see what an experimenter has come up with. I agree with what rq3 and Mullertron have said. This is a compass on a pendulum. No linear force can be generated with this kind of apparatus.
If my supposition is correct, the coil will rotate if its rest axis is oriented east-west. If the rest axis is north-south, the coil should swing north and south. North and south being defined by the Earth's local magnetic field. There's also magnetic dip to take into account. In my location, the Earth's field lines are not parallel to the ground, but inclined about 17 degrees down towards north. So yes, you can generate a linear force with this get-up, but only if there is an already existing external magnetic field. But putting a bar magnet in a boat won't make it head to the north pole, since it's also trying to go to the south pole. -
#3256 by Mulletron on 19 Jun, 2016 17:22
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Somehow I think the message that the symmetrical cylindrical coil is the control, is being lost. Obviously the experiment should be completed again with identical conditions other than 1) is a cone and 2) is a cylinder.
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#3257 by FattyLumpkin on 19 Jun, 2016 18:52
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X_Ray, it appears as though I made an error in the math (dimensions). I'm going to rework it and double check + flatten and widen the resonator as recommended by Rodal. I'm very sorry for the mistake. I'll get back to you in a few hours. FL Kevin
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#3258 by FattyLumpkin on 20 Jun, 2016 00:35
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X_Ray, OK...I've recalculated the dimensions of the "flattened" NASA frustum. The below attach should = 8,834.7 cm cubed. I don't have the dimensions of the oscillator calculated yet, but if you wish the 15.67cm x 5.4cm original size antenna will now fit in the frustum without making contact with the bottom wall, and you might want to try that. Will be back in a few hrs. to post "flattened" HDPE antenna dimensions. FL
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#3259 by FattyLumpkin on 20 Jun, 2016 02:27
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X_Ray, for the HDPE dielectric resonator I calculate a diameter of 21.07 cm and a depth of 2.99 cm for a total volume of 1.042.5 cm cubed. I'm not sure about what frequency or power you may wish to try. As you know the best response with the NASA frustum in it's original configuration/dimensions was with a frequency of 1.8804 GHz and 2.8 Watts, TE012 mode.(You recall preceding discussions about why no more than 2.8 Watts was attempted). Thank you for your time! , FL
