-
#2160 by Gilbertdrive on 09 May, 2016 18:06
-
It's coming to you, or being exact to your elementary particles, from all directions. If you could warp the Aether so that it is directing somewhere having no massive particle, it means you created synthetical mass. That is one mechanism which must be taken account if emdrive effect seem to be real. Then the drive would not be em-drive but qg-drive as making use of quantum gravity by artificial gravitating mass.
Thanks very much for the explanations. So, with this hypothesis, the Emdevice/QGdevice would manipulate gravitation, to get acceleration ? -
#2161 by Monomorphic on 09 May, 2016 18:13
-
I picked up the aluminum rectangle tube for the tortional pendulum beam today. I am using rectangle instead of square as it is more rigid than the square when oriented the right way. I hope to have some more progress images in a day or so.
I also stopped by the local piano shop and they gave me three different sizes of piano wire for free: #14 (0.033") #18 (0.041") #23 (0.051").
-
#2162 by zellerium on 09 May, 2016 18:15
-
Hi everyone,
The deflections I've been observing have not been repeatable. Sometimes I'll have a test where the cylinder swings in the direction of the dielectric as well as laterally, sometimes just one or the other.
They are typically deflections that are consistent with about 10 to 20 mN of force based on my calibration weights. Sometimes the deflections are permanent, meaning the pendulum will settle in a new location. One time the x axis deflections switched directions between 15 second test runs. I have also observed similar deflections without a dielectric.
I have a feeling it's a thermal deformation of the wire leads to the magnetron. Every time I disconnect the magnetron and run a VNA sweep the precise orientation of the wires changes.
Has anyone calculated the thermal expansion of copper wires powering a magnetron? The resistance through mine is a maximum of 0.8 ohms.
-
#2163 by rfmwguy on 09 May, 2016 18:16
-
Tell you one thing...we all missed out on a solution to this whole conundrum...the current cost to test an EMDrive in space. I'll let this wise poster from their video site say it for themselves...
I got the sense that they heard about it but really didn't have a feel for the concept. They certainly understood what it could mean, thus their interest in hoping it becomes spaceflight ready someday. They are advocates of getting us into space they same way our ancestors wanted to explore the oceans. A noble concept that many of us share. Good folks for sure...also like their informal style where they don't take themselves too seriously. Much more entertaining and informative IMHO.Here's the hd webcast I was on:
Good job Dave. It's good to see those folks that have a keen interest in science, helping others understand.
You know Dave, people like Elon Musk, Bezos, Zellerium and the others like them have that drive that that comes from desire and a "we'll figure it out later if it doesn't work" attitude.
It's called audacity.
I think our generation lost a lot of that audacity when we hit middle age and became too set in our ways. My instinct says the new generation is great. That they will carry the ball to the places we dream of.
I hope to see some of it. I feel confident in the abilities of the human race.
"BAD TREKEE 14 hours ago
All he has to do is go to Elon musk to get the EM drive in space = ELON MUSK DRIVE" -
#2164 by rfmwguy on 09 May, 2016 18:21
-
Hi everyone,
Hi Kurt, are you using multi-strand copper for all 3 leads: HV, Heater and Ground?
The deflections I've been observing have not been repeatable. Sometimes I'll have a test where the cylinder swings in the direction of the dielectric as well as laterally, sometimes just one or the other.
They are typically deflections that are consistent with about 10 to 20 mN of force based on my calibration weights. Sometimes the deflections are permanent, meaning the pendulum will settle in a new location. One time the x axis deflections switched directions between 15 second test runs. I have also observed similar deflections without a dielectric.
I have a feeling it's a thermal deformation of the wire leads to the magnetron. Every time I disconnect the magnetron and run a VNA sweep the precise orientation of the wires changes.
Has anyone calculated the thermal expansion of copper wires powering a magnetron? The resistance through mine is a maximum of 0.8 ohms. -
#2165 by Eusa on 09 May, 2016 18:33
-
Yep. That's the hypothesis.It's coming to you, or being exact to your elementary particles, from all directions. If you could warp the Aether so that it is directing somewhere having no massive particle, it means you created synthetical mass. That is one mechanism which must be taken account if emdrive effect seem to be real. Then the drive would not be em-drive but qg-drive as making use of quantum gravity by artificial gravitating mass.
Thanks very much for the explanations. So, with this hypothesis, the Emdevice/QGdevice would manipulate gravitation, to get acceleration ? -
#2166 by Gilbertdrive on 09 May, 2016 18:39
-
Yep. That's the hypothesis.It's coming to you, or being exact to your elementary particles, from all directions. If you could warp the Aether so that it is directing somewhere having no massive particle, it means you created synthetical mass. That is one mechanism which must be taken account if emdrive effect seem to be real. Then the drive would not be em-drive but qg-drive as making use of quantum gravity by artificial gravitating mass.
Thanks very much for the explanations. So, with this hypothesis, the Emdevice/QGdevice would manipulate gravitation, to get acceleration ?
And what is happening to CoE and CoM with this hypothesis ? Does it means that some energy can be gained from the Aether ? -
#2167 by Phil Stooke on 09 May, 2016 18:45
-
(mod note - removed off topic)
-
#2168 by Chrochne on 09 May, 2016 18:47
-
Dr. Rodal wrote: page 106
"Why does Shawyer resort to sending e-mails for other people to openly publish in a forum instead of himself engaging in defense of his controversial explanations, like Dr. McCulloch is presently doing, and as most other scientists and engineers have done? (foremost among them, the scientists he is basing his explanation on: Newton, Maxwell and Einstein who engaged in critical debate of their theories)."
Dr. Rodal, I think it is the very same reason why for example Star-Drive can not post any answers here for year and more now. That also unfortunately blurred our vision on current progress of the EmDrive. I think we need to be fair on both sides and get again to the neutral territory, when it comes to judging the people actions here - as was the case here in the past, but recently it has fallen to critizies anything that is connected with Mr. Shawyer. It was very critized here when Mr. Shawyer posted trough the Traveller. Now he send letter trough Rfmwguy (who is well respected here) and it received even more criticism.
-
#2169 by Gilbertdrive on 09 May, 2016 19:03
-
Chrochne, the problem is that, instead of giving us some light, the document that was provided is inconsistent and full of holes. In fact, I think that if Shawyer answers to Rfmwguy's mail, it will give us more new information that the last document.
I understand that debating on a forum takes much time and Energy. As Dr Rodal said earlier, he can also, as Mike McCulloch do, post messages on his own website, or on a blog.
Anyway, you are right, we need to be fair with both side.
-
#2170 by zellerium on 09 May, 2016 19:08
-
Hi everyone,
Hi Kurt, are you using multi-strand copper for all 3 leads: HV, Heater and Ground?
The deflections I've been observing have not been repeatable. Sometimes I'll have a test where the cylinder swings in the direction of the dielectric as well as laterally, sometimes just one or the other.
They are typically deflections that are consistent with about 10 to 20 mN of force based on my calibration weights. Sometimes the deflections are permanent, meaning the pendulum will settle in a new location. One time the x axis deflections switched directions between 15 second test runs. I have also observed similar deflections without a dielectric.
I have a feeling it's a thermal deformation of the wire leads to the magnetron. Every time I disconnect the magnetron and run a VNA sweep the precise orientation of the wires changes.
Has anyone calculated the thermal expansion of copper wires powering a magnetron? The resistance through mine is a maximum of 0.8 ohms.
Yes it is 14 gauge multi-strand copper wire. -
#2171 by X_RaY on 09 May, 2016 19:10
-
Dr. Rodal wrote: page 106
Maybe the reason for the critique is that he(Mr. Sawyer himself) consequently ignores the controverse points related to his theory (and the points proven as potential false), discussed over and over in this forum for example?
"Why does Shawyer resort to sending e-mails for other people to openly publish in a forum instead of himself engaging in defense of his controversial explanations, like Dr. McCulloch is presently doing, and as most other scientists and engineers have done? (foremost among them, the scientists he is basing his explanation on: Newton, Maxwell and Einstein who engaged in critical debate of their theories)."
Dr. Rodal, I think it is the very same reason why for example Star-Drive can not post any answers here for year and more now. That also unfortunately blurred our vision on current progress of the EmDrive. I think we need to be fair on both sides and get again to the neutral territory, when it comes to judging the people actions here - as was the case here in the past, but recently it has fallen to critizies anything that is connected with Mr. Shawyer. It was very critized here when Mr. Shawyer posted trough the Traveller. Now he send letter trough Rfmwguy (who is well respected here) and it received even more criticism. -
#2172 by Rodal on 09 May, 2016 19:20
-
Dr. Rodal wrote: page 106
1) there is a huge difference between general criticism and technical specific criticism. Most scientists and engineers I know of welcome skeptical debate: this happens in universities and R&D institutions all the time and it is encouraged , this is how science and technology advances. You are welcome to visit this http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=39214.msg1526577#msg1526577 where I show in detail why Shawyer is completely wrong in his technical arguments and come back and tell me where I am wrong or how would you have expressed this otherwise. Or are you opposed to any technical debate ? and you think that when somebody writes that the EM Drive can be explained because there is no pressure on the side walls of a resonant conical cavity with spherical ends, we should behave like a docile audience and do not say that that this is contradictory ?
"Why does Shawyer resort to sending e-mails for other people to openly publish in a forum instead of himself engaging in defense of his controversial explanations, like Dr. McCulloch is presently doing, and as most other scientists and engineers have done? (foremost among them, the scientists he is basing his explanation on: Newton, Maxwell and Einstein who engaged in critical debate of their theories)."
Dr. Rodal, I think it is the very same reason why for example Star-Drive can not post any answers here for year and more now. That also unfortunately blurred our vision on current progress of the EmDrive. I think we need to be fair on both sides and get again to the neutral territory, when it comes to judging the people actions here - as was the case here in the past, but recently it has fallen to critizies anything that is connected with Mr. Shawyer. It was very critized here when Mr. Shawyer posted trough the Traveller. Now he send letter trough Rfmwguy (who is well respected here) and it received even more criticism.
2) This has nothing to do with NSF, Reddit or any other forum. Shawyer has put forward "explanations" that he claims are "Basic Science" saying that anybody that knows basic physics should be able to understand the EM Drive, because all you need is Special Relativity, Maxwell and Newton.
My opinion is that his rehashing of this same old stuff and calling it "Basic Science"
is disrespectful to technical people and to his audience. I think that NASA's team deals with criticism in an honorable way: when somebody asks them how can you extract momentum from an immutable Quantum Vacuum, instead of ignoring you, NASA replies: because we are considering something different: a degradable Quantum Vacuum. When Dr. McCulloch is challenged by Prof. Baez, Dr. McCulloch answers, point by point. This is how technical debate advances science and technology. Not by saying: here I have a rocket engine that will take you to the stars with no propellant, and when you ask: but that goes against energy conservation, and conservation of momentum they answer again and again: you should know that this can be explained with the basic science you should have learned at school. And they show some cartoons saying "Kinetic Energy" and that explains the whole thing ? 
Shawyer never addressed the fact that his explanations have been debunked over and over again, particularly since his article in New Scientist, in which prominent UK engineers and scientists criticized his article.
It is just amazing that he continues to push things like that there is no radiation pressure on the side walls of the EM Drive, and his incorrect force balance.
Shawyer could have answered the technical criticism in another article or in his website. Instead he rehashes the same old explanations that are self-contradictory and again, although he has been promoting his EM Drive experiments longer than anyone else, he has never reported a single experiment that complies with ANY of the following requirements:
* torsional pendulum
* vacuum chamber
* batteries
not even one of them.
It is just amazing that Shawyer quotes again the old experiments by Prof.Yang that she just nullified, and completely ignores Prof. Yang's new experiment that shows them to be invalid.
-
#2173 by rfmwguy on 09 May, 2016 19:23
-
There is going to be 1 critical point where thermal expansion of the insulator (more likely) or the copper will stretch/contract directly affecting your measurement. Any chance you have a pic of the setup?Hi everyone,
Hi Kurt, are you using multi-strand copper for all 3 leads: HV, Heater and Ground?
The deflections I've been observing have not been repeatable. Sometimes I'll have a test where the cylinder swings in the direction of the dielectric as well as laterally, sometimes just one or the other.
They are typically deflections that are consistent with about 10 to 20 mN of force based on my calibration weights. Sometimes the deflections are permanent, meaning the pendulum will settle in a new location. One time the x axis deflections switched directions between 15 second test runs. I have also observed similar deflections without a dielectric.
I have a feeling it's a thermal deformation of the wire leads to the magnetron. Every time I disconnect the magnetron and run a VNA sweep the precise orientation of the wires changes.
Has anyone calculated the thermal expansion of copper wires powering a magnetron? The resistance through mine is a maximum of 0.8 ohms.
Yes it is 14 gauge multi-strand copper wire.
p.s. While you are looking that up, here is the wire lead I used for the HV magnetron line. Note the operating temp range: http://www.mcmaster.com/#9620t19/ -
#2174 by Chrochne on 09 May, 2016 19:44
-
Dr. Rodal wrote: page 106
"Why does Shawyer resort to sending e-mails for other people to openly publish in a forum instead of himself engaging in defense of his controversial explanations, like Dr. McCulloch is presently doing, and as most other scientists and engineers have done? (foremost among them, the scientists he is basing his explanation on: Newton, Maxwell and Einstein who engaged in critical debate of their theories)."
Dr. Rodal, I think it is the very same reason why for example Star-Drive can not post any answers here for year and more now. That also unfortunately blurred our vision on current progress of the EmDrive. I think we need to be fair on both sides and get again to the neutral territory, when it comes to judging the people actions here - as was the case here in the past, but recently it has fallen to critizies anything that is connected with Mr. Shawyer. It was very critized here when Mr. Shawyer posted trough the Traveller. Now he send letter trough Rfmwguy (who is well respected here) and it received even more criticism.
2) This has nothing to do with NSF, Reddit or any other forum. Shawyer has put forward "explanations" that he claims are "Basic Science" saying that anybody that knows basic physics should be able to understand the EM Drive, because all you need is Special Relativity, Maxwell and Newton.
My opinion is ...
Thank you for honest answer on the matter. Will check that link you send. Yes, now your behaviour give sense. I was worried lately, that just anything Shawyer wrote was just put to fire because it was from him. Now it gives much more sense. I agree that there is little to none response on those holes in the theory. I think you already suggested Mr. Shawyer should cooperate with scientists that understand the theory better. -
#2175 by Bob Woods on 09 May, 2016 19:59
-
Mmmmm, a lot of EM Drive people are not young
I got the sense that they heard about it but really didn't have a feel for the concept. They certainly understood what it could mean, thus their interest in hoping it becomes spaceflight ready someday. They are advocates of getting us into space they same way our ancestors wanted to explore the oceans. A noble concept that many of us share. Good folks for sure...also like their informal style where they don't take themselves too seriously. Much more entertaining and informative IMHO.Here's the hd webcast I was on:
Good job Dave. It's good to see those folks that have a keen interest in science, helping others understand.
You know Dave, people like Elon Musk, Bezos, Zellerium and the others like them have that drive that that comes from desire and a "we'll figure it out later if it doesn't work" attitude.
It's called audacity.
I think our generation lost a lot of that audacity when we hit middle age and became too set in our ways. My instinct says the new generation is great. That they will carry the ball to the places we dream of.
I hope to see some of it. I feel confident in the abilities of the human race.
Shawyer, (I won't comment on DIY's ages 
)
Maybe it is the other way around, maybe it is that the old folks are the ones that have more drive (pun intended), from the Atomic age, the Space age, the Robot and AI age when nothing could stop their dreams, cars looked like rockets and rockets were going to the Moon instead of over and over to LEO as they have been doing for decades 
Doc, in no way am I denigrating those of us with advanced accumulated knowledge (re: Old) But I'm sitting in a hotel within the ancient walls of Segovia near the Alcazar, 2 weeks into my first trip to Spain with 2 weeks+ to go. It has made me very philosophical as did my my trip to Rome 21 years ago.
Humanity over the centuries has gained much, and often lost it, only to have to regain it again.
Looking at these cultures it makes me more aware that the future, by definition, always lies with the young.Our job is to maker sure that we teach them well, encourage them, and support them in their efforts as you an others here have repeatedly done. If you, Dave, Seashells, and the others succeed so much the better. That only raises the bar.
When I see Elon Musk say he's sending an unmanned Dragon capsule in 2018 to land on Mars I have the same elation I had in waiting for Apollo 11 to touch down on the moon. Drive, audacity and determination to do what needs to be done.
Outside of a world wide nuclear disaster, I just think the culture of the world may have truly passed to an point of continuing exponential growth. That growth can only be fueled by the imagination of those we support.
*****
Sorry Dave, off topic. But I'm an old man who like to dream. -
#2176 by tchernik on 09 May, 2016 20:11
-
I would add that we need some more room for dreamers with a plan, whatever their age. Young people have more affinity with it, because they're young and don't give a damn about being faithful to any establishment yet (mental or otherwise).
But a few veterans can also shake the establishment, by asking the right questions and not giving a damn about professional or reputation consequences anymore (what, are they taking your retirement stipend away?).
-
#2177 by Rodal on 09 May, 2016 20:13
-
...
Well, I don't personally consider myself old, still working in my own business (NSF is for intellectual curiosity
Doc, in no way am I denigrating those of us with advanced accumulated knowledge (re: Old) But I'm sitting in a hotel within the ancient walls of Segovia near the Alcazar, 2 weeks into my first trip to Spain with 2 weeks+ to go. It has made me very philosophical as did my my trip to Rome 21 years ago.
Humanity over the centuries has gained much, and often lost it, only to have to regain it again.
Looking at these cultures it makes me more aware that the future, by definition, always lies with the young.Our job is to maker sure that we teach them well, encourage them, and support them in their efforts as you an others here have repeatedly done. If you, Dave, Seashells, and the others succeed so much the better. That only raises the bar.
When I see Elon Musk say he's sending an unmanned Dragon capsule in 2018 to land on Mars I have the same elation I had in waiting for Apollo 11 to touch down on the moon. Drive, audacity and determination to do what needs to be done.
Outside of a world wide nuclear disaster, I just think the culture of the world may have truly passed to an point of continuing exponential growth. That growth can only be fueled by the imagination of those we support.
*****
Sorry Dave, off topic. But I'm an old man who like to dream. ) running and weightlifting . I agree with what you have to say: we are optimistic on the new generation. Humanity will colonize the Cosmos, one way (as humans) or another (as our AI descendants) on to the Omega point !
-
#2178 by SeeShells on 09 May, 2016 20:14
-
Got it wrong. Start a rumor that Jeff Bezos wants to shoot it off.
Tell you one thing...we all missed out on a solution to this whole conundrum...the current cost to test an EMDrive in space. I'll let this wise poster from their video site say it for themselves...
I got the sense that they heard about it but really didn't have a feel for the concept. They certainly understood what it could mean, thus their interest in hoping it becomes spaceflight ready someday. They are advocates of getting us into space they same way our ancestors wanted to explore the oceans. A noble concept that many of us share. Good folks for sure...also like their informal style where they don't take themselves too seriously. Much more entertaining and informative IMHO.Here's the hd webcast I was on:
Good job Dave. It's good to see those folks that have a keen interest in science, helping others understand.
You know Dave, people like Elon Musk, Bezos, Zellerium and the others like them have that drive that that comes from desire and a "we'll figure it out later if it doesn't work" attitude.
It's called audacity.
I think our generation lost a lot of that audacity when we hit middle age and became too set in our ways. My instinct says the new generation is great. That they will carry the ball to the places we dream of.
I hope to see some of it. I feel confident in the abilities of the human race.
"BAD TREKEE 14 hours ago
All he has to do is go to Elon musk to get the EM drive in space = ELON MUSK DRIVE"
Way busy today.
Shell
PS: monorphic, you are looking good for launch! -
#2179 by RotoSequence on 09 May, 2016 20:16
-
Maybe it is the other way around
, maybe it is that the old folks are the ones that have more drive (pun intended), from the Atomic age, the Space age, the Robot and AI age when nothing could stop their dreams, cars looked like rockets and rockets were going to the Moon instead of over and over to LEO as they have been doing for decades
I think you're on to something with this hypothesis, but there's little more to say on the topic that isn't wildly off the topic of EM Drive. Never the less, I am not even slightly surprised that so many in my generation are unwilling to have hope for things like EM drive.
is disrespectful to technical people and to his audience. I think that NASA's team deals with criticism in an honorable way: when somebody asks them how can you extract momentum from an immutable Quantum Vacuum, instead of ignoring you, NASA replies: because we are considering something different: a degradable Quantum Vacuum. When Dr. McCulloch is challenged by Prof. Baez, Dr. McCulloch answers, point by point. This is how technical debate advances science and technology. Not by saying: here I have a rocket engine that will take you to the stars with no propellant, and when you ask: but that goes against energy conservation, and conservation of momentum they answer again and again: you should know that this can be explained with the basic science you should have learned at school. And they show some cartoons saying "Kinetic Energy" and that explains the whole thing ? 
Shawyer, (I won't comment on DIY's ages 
)