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#1360 by Notsosureofit on 17 Apr, 2016 14:49
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So power in watts increase as a result of self-sputtering? And this is provided by the power supply itself?I agree 100%. It is counterintuitive. Dr Anders saw a higher output current without an increase in input current due to self-sputtering. As he said, it seems like a violation but is another way of looking at it.
I'm far from convinced, just is a possibility I find very encouraging. Reason I'm willing to put it out here is to have the braintrusts pick it apart. I have no problem with criticism of it...no ego to bruise. As McCoy said, "Dammit Jim, I'm a builder...not a Theorist"!...or something like that.
Yes, we see it all the time. The current stays the same but the voltage rises.
Thanks Dr N, what external factor is this attributed to?
The constant current DC supply !
Yes, The sum of the absolute magnitudes of the currents does increase within the system. ie, |I(DC from supply)| +|I+(addl ions)| +|I-(addl electrons)|
The impedance increases. -
#1361 by Rodal on 17 Apr, 2016 14:50
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So power in watts increase as a result of self-sputtering? And this is provided by the power supply itself?I agree 100%. It is counterintuitive. Dr Anders saw a higher output current without an increase in input current due to self-sputtering. As he said, it seems like a violation but is another way of looking at it.
I'm far from convinced, just is a possibility I find very encouraging. Reason I'm willing to put it out here is to have the braintrusts pick it apart. I have no problem with criticism of it...no ego to bruise. As McCoy said, "Dammit Jim, I'm a builder...not a Theorist"!...or something like that.
Yes, we see it all the time. The current stays the same but the voltage rises.
Thanks Dr N, what external factor is this attributed to?
The constant current DC supply !
Yes, The sum of the absolute magnitudes of the currents does increase within the system. ie, |I(DC from supply)| +|I+(addl ions)| +|I-(addl electrons)|
The impedance increases.
High power impulse magnetron sputtering: Current-voltage-time characteristics indicate the onset of sustained self-sputtering
André Andersa and Joakim Andersson
JOURNAL OF APPLIED PHYSICS 102, 113303 2007
http://www2.lbl.gov/tt/publications/2473pub.pdf
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#1362 by Notsosureofit on 17 Apr, 2016 14:54
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Old stuff...Edison probably saw it ...
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#1363 by Rodal on 17 Apr, 2016 15:34
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Old stuff...Edison probably saw it ...
T. A. Edison, "Art of plating one material with another," U.S. Patent 526,147, 1894.
https://www.google.com/patents/US526147Quote from: EdisonBe it known that 1, THOMAS A. EDISON, of Menlo Park, in'the county of Middlesex and State of New Jersey, have invented a new and useful Improvement in the Art of Plating One Material with Another, (Case No. 615,) of which the following is a specification.
The object of this invention is to produce a coating of one material upon another; and said invention consists in producing such a coating by throwing the material to be deposited into. the form of a vapor in avacuum, by means of a continuous current, the object to be coated or plated being within the vacuous chamber so that the material is deposited upon it from the vapor.
I vaporize the material by electrical heating and the best method of doing this is to place electrodes of the depositing material in the vacuum chamber, forming a continuous are between them. -A dense even homogeneous and adherent deposit will then be rapidly formed upon the interior Walls of the chamber and upon the surface of any object which may be placed within said chamber.
The deposit may be obtained by rendering the material to be deposited electrically incandescent within the vacuum by means of a continuous current, but the arc process is more rapid; also, I may produce a deposit of a non-conducting material by coating a conductor of carbon with such material and heating the same to incandescence. The material will be vaporized and deposited, while the carbon will withstand the heat. Any substance which will volatilize in the incandescent heat may be so used. This process of depositing in an exhausted chamber by electrical vaporization by means of a continuous current or a continuous arc, as distinguished from an intermittent current and from a series of sparks, I term electro vacuous deposition.
Also:
J. Priestley, "Experiments in which rings, consisting of all the prismatic colours, where made by electrical explosions on the surface of metals," in The History and Present State of Electricity, vol. II, ed London, 1775, pp. 329-335.
W. R. Grove, "On some anomalous cases of electrical decomposition," Phil. Mag., pp. 203-211, 1853.
A. W. Wright, "On the production of transparent films by the electrical discharge in exhausted tubes," Am. J. Science & Arts, 3rd Series, vol. 13, pp. 49-55, 1877.
Picture showing two women pioneer researchers at Edison's sputtering lab in 1907, Berlin, from:
A Short History: Vacuum Chambers for PVD
Donald M. Mattox, Management Plus, Inc., Albuquerque, NM
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#1364 by Rodal on 17 Apr, 2016 16:08
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Which points once again to the fact that the most convincing EM Drive experiment would be one where the EM Drive is completely self-integrated with the power source (for example batteries), such that the center of mass-energy is in the moving platform (preferably in a torque pendulum, like a Cavendish pendulum), as the experiments by Brito Marini and Galian that nullified a type of propellantless Mach Lorentz Thruster.I agree 100%. It is counterintuitive. Dr Anders saw a higher output current without an increase in input current due to self-sputtering. As he said, it seems like a violation but is another way of looking at it.
I'm far from convinced, just is a possibility I find very encouraging. Reason I'm willing to put it out here is to have the braintrusts pick it apart. I have no problem with criticism of it...no ego to bruise. As McCoy said, "Dammit Jim, I'm a builder...not a Theorist"!...or something like that.
Yes, we see it all the time. The current stays the same but the voltage rises.
Thanks Dr N, what external factor is this attributed to?
The constant current DC supply !
...
The interesting thing about the EM Drive (with just photons inside the cavity, not because of electrons as in self-sputtering, because electrons have mass) is that:QuoteSystems that have nonzero energy but zero rest mass (such as photons moving in a single direction, or equivalently, plane electromagnetic waves) do not have Center Of Momentum frames, because there is no frame in which they have zero net momentum. Due to the invariance of the speed of light, such massless systems must travel at the speed of light in any frame, and therefore always possess a net momentum magnitude that is equal to their energy divided by the speed of light
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Center-of-momentum_frame#Special_relativity
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#1365 by Rodal on 17 Apr, 2016 19:00
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https://projecteuclid.org/download/pdf_1/euclid.cmp/1103840013
The Center-of-Mass in Einstein's Theory of Gravitation
W. BEIGLBOCK*
Institut fur Angewandte Mathematik der Universitat Heidelberg
Received February 1, 1967QuoteAbstract. We prove the existence and uniqueness of a center-of-mass line as well
as a center-of-motion line, the latter due to G. DIXON, 1964. The validity of the
theorems depends on some assumptions listed in § 2, whose most restrictive ones
(in the sense of physics) state a certain weakness of the gravitational field. In the
concluding paragraph we give some corrolaries and a very simple application to
the problem of motion
The condition required by Dixon and Beiglböck to uniquely define a center of mass is that the closed system under consideration (for example, everything inside the "black box" of the EM Drive) be described by an energy-momentum tensor satisfying the standard condition that the divergence of the stress-energy tensor be zero: ∇aTab=0.
The stress–energy tensor is the conserved Noether current associated with spacetime translations (the conserved quantity is called the Noether charge, while the flow carrying that charge is called the "Noether current". )
The divergence of the non-gravitational stress–energy (for example, purely electromagnetic stress-energy) is zero. In other words, non-gravitational (purely electromagnetic) energy and momentum are conserved,
As discussed previously in other posts, with the example of "swimming" in space, there is a problem defining center of mass-energy when gravitational energy and momentum in curved spacetime: a center of mass-energy can no longer be uniquely defined when gravitational energy and momentum are present.
This is the beauty of the General Relativity approach to the EM Drive: it gives you a possible way out of the conundrum of conservation of momentum and conservation of energy, because of the more complex issues associated with gravitational energy and momentum.
---> Some people are talking also about Quantum Mechanics in these threads. I do not see how Quantum Mechanics gives you a way out (by itself, without the benefit of General Relativity) of conservation of momentum and conservation of energy. What I see is that General Relativity may (?) give you a way out when gravitational energy and momentum are involved <--- -
#1366 by FattyLumpkin on 17 Apr, 2016 22:42
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X_Ray , since you are experimenting with different frequencies, why not try all of what NASA worked with (where in some instances the Mode was in TM ...... of course you'd need to change them by the up-scaling factor.
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#1367 by rfmwguy on 17 Apr, 2016 23:41
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https://projecteuclid.org/download/pdf_1/euclid.cmp/1103840013
Done with fabrication for the day...now back to theory. Here we have 2 elements that might help coe/m issues...gravitational energy and momentum.
The Center-of-Mass in Einstein's Theory of Gravitation
W. BEIGLBOCK*
Institut fur Angewandte Mathematik der Universitat Heidelberg
Received February 1, 1967QuoteAbstract. We prove the existence and uniqueness of a center-of-mass line as well
as a center-of-motion line, the latter due to G. DIXON, 1964. The validity of the
theorems depends on some assumptions listed in § 2, whose most restrictive ones
(in the sense of physics) state a certain weakness of the gravitational field. In the
concluding paragraph we give some corrolaries and a very simple application to
the problem of motion
The condition required by Dixon and Beiglböck to uniquely define a center of mass is that the closed system under consideration (for example, everything inside the "black box" of the EM Drive) be described by an energy-momentum tensor satisfying the standard condition that the divergence of the stress-energy tensor be zero: ∇aTab=0.
The stress–energy tensor is the conserved Noether current associated with spacetime translations (the conserved quantity is called the Noether charge, while the flow carrying that charge is called the "Noether current". )
The divergence of the non-gravitational stress–energy (for example, purely electromagnetic stress-energy) is zero. In other words, non-gravitational (purely electromagnetic) energy and momentum are conserved,
As discussed previously in other posts, with the example of "swimming" in space, there is a problem defining center of mass-energy when gravitational energy and momentum in curved spacetime: a center of mass-energy can no longer be uniquely defined when gravitational energy and momentum are present.
This is the beauty of the General Relativity approach to the EM Drive: it gives you a possible way out of the conundrum of conservation of momentum and conservation of energy, because of the more complex issues associated with gravitational energy and momentum.
---> Some people are talking also about Quantum Mechanics in these threads. I do not see how Quantum Mechanics gives you a way out (by itself, without the benefit of General Relativity) of conservation of momentum and conservation of energy. What I see is that General Relativity may (?) give you a way out when gravitational energy and momentum are involved <---
Understand em zeros out. External gravity waves penetrate frustum. Seems I read em can create its own gravity field along with free electrons and ions, thus creating momentum. Within the frustum, are you proposing these forces interract with external gravity energy and the momentum state of the frustum itself? Sorry if the question is off the mark. -
#1368 by rfmwguy on 17 Apr, 2016 23:58
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#1369 by Rodal on 18 Apr, 2016 01:18
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...Done with fabrication for the day...now back to theory. Here we have 2 elements that might help coe/m issues...gravitational energy and momentum.
These are some of the people that have made proposals that may be related to this: Prof. James Woodward, Dr. Sonny White, Dr. Marco Frasca, Dr. Alexander Trunev, Dr. Fernando Minotti, Dr. McCulloch, and NSF members Notsosureofit, DaCunha and Eusa (sorry if I forgot some). More later
Understand em zeros out. External gravity waves penetrate frustum. Seems I read em can create its own gravity field along with free electrons and ions, thus creating momentum. Within the frustum, are you proposing these forces interract with external gravity energy and the momentum state of the frustum itself? Sorry if the question is off the mark.
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#1370 by Eusa on 18 Apr, 2016 02:39
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https://projecteuclid.org/download/pdf_1/euclid.cmp/1103840013
Just like I wrote: G-drive accelerates other bodies at the same gravity field i.e. it weakens the inertial current, the vacuum quanta flow. It might alter gravity field by warping and so emitting gravitational waves. Laser-interferometer to measure ripples in spacetime near chamber?
The Center-of-Mass in Einstein's Theory of Gravitation
W. BEIGLBOCK*
Institut fur Angewandte Mathematik der Universitat Heidelberg
Received February 1, 1967QuoteAbstract. We prove the existence and uniqueness of a center-of-mass line as well
as a center-of-motion line, the latter due to G. DIXON, 1964. The validity of the
theorems depends on some assumptions listed in § 2, whose most restrictive ones
(in the sense of physics) state a certain weakness of the gravitational field. In the
concluding paragraph we give some corrolaries and a very simple application to
the problem of motion
The condition required by Dixon and Beiglböck to uniquely define a center of mass is that the closed system under consideration (for example, everything inside the "black box" of the EM Drive) be described by an energy-momentum tensor satisfying the standard condition that the divergence of the stress-energy tensor be zero: ∇aTab=0.
The stress–energy tensor is the conserved Noether current associated with spacetime translations (the conserved quantity is called the Noether charge, while the flow carrying that charge is called the "Noether current". )
The divergence of the non-gravitational stress–energy (for example, purely electromagnetic stress-energy) is zero. In other words, non-gravitational (purely electromagnetic) energy and momentum are conserved,
As discussed previously in other posts, with the example of "swimming" in space, there is a problem defining center of mass-energy when gravitational energy and momentum in curved spacetime: a center of mass-energy can no longer be uniquely defined when gravitational energy and momentum are present.
This is the beauty of the General Relativity approach to the EM Drive: it gives you a possible way out of the conundrum of conservation of momentum and conservation of energy, because of the more complex issues associated with gravitational energy and momentum.
---> Some people are talking also about Quantum Mechanics in these threads. I do not see how Quantum Mechanics gives you a way out (by itself, without the benefit of General Relativity) of conservation of momentum and conservation of energy. What I see is that General Relativity may (?) give you a way out when gravitational energy and momentum are involved <--- -
#1371 by Wheels on 18 Apr, 2016 03:37
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Hi All,
I have been following this with a lot of interest like others and have a few questions.
1. Has anyone thought of using Hard Chrome on the inside of your frustums, the hardness is between 65 - 68 HRc, I beleave this will give a better reflection to your wave guide and end plates. It can be done relatively cheap at any Chrome shop and they can green paint any area you don't want chromed.
2. Could the blackest black paint (link below) be used in conjunction with the chroming dampen resonance where you don't want it and increase the standing wave where you do.
http://www.gizmag.com/vantablack-s-vis-spray/42298/
3. Would a silicone based polymer be better as a dielectric as it would be better able to handle the heat.
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#1372 by CuriousDreamer on 18 Apr, 2016 03:49
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related to warping of space time... It would be interesting if one could come up with an experiment that could determine the extent that mass warps space time. I mean, how much to you have to warp space time to cause the level of gravity we feel on the earths surface? Do you need to warp space by a factor of 2? or maybe 200? and are you constricting space time to cause gravity or stretching? (can space time develop stretch marks or loose its elasticity? Hmm...)
Maybe this is covered by relativity, I really don't know the theories that well. but even if it is, an experiment giving solid data is always nice. maybe the emdrive experiments will one day be used to directly interact with and study gravity, who knows.
Dreamer -
#1373 by FattyLumpkin on 18 Apr, 2016 05:18
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CuriousDreamer, I haven't been here on Emdrive NSF for long, but I think you might be off topic in your comment as I haven't seen any discussion of how there may be similarities between Emdrive and Warp drive where theory or any thing else is concerned. However it would be great to have you on board with NSF Emdrive. Are you a DIYer? , FL
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#1374 by FattyLumpkin on 18 Apr, 2016 09:06
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Members, does anyone have any information on the below attached dubbed Q thruster by Sonny White ---is there a schematic out there (resembling the article) that someone has? thanks FL ...doesn't look anything like Cannae at all !!! + in his talk he states plainly that the technology is ready to go from TRL 2 to TRL 3---I know this has been out there for a while but there are many snippets of info in presentation he made that are blunt and quite significant re quite a number of Newtons/kilowatt etc. Ciao!
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#1375 by Rodal on 18 Apr, 2016 12:10
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Members, does anyone have any information on the below attached dubbed Q thruster by Sonny White ---is there a schematic out there (resembling the article) that someone has? thanks FL ...doesn't look anything like Cannae at all !!! + in his talk he states plainly that the technology is ready to go from TRL 2 to TRL 3---I know this has been out there for a while but there are many snippets of info in presentation he made that are blunt and quite significant re quite a number of Newtons/kilowatt etc. Ciao!
It looks like a later version of the Woodward effect Mach Lorentz Thruster MLT-2004 vxB Test Article, from Paul March.
* Not a microwave thruster.
* Not an EM Drive.
* Not a Cannae drive.
* It is a Woodward Mach Effect Lorentz Thruster.
* Although not an EM Drive, Dr. White calls all these devices "Q Thrusters" because he explains their supposed thrust in terms of his Quantum Vacuum theory, encompassing devices with different electromagnetic details and frequency of operation.
This picture is more like the 2012 prototype tested at NASA, from Dr. White's 2012 presentation photographs, at the time that he was making presentations on the Warp Drive:
See:
White, H.; March, P. (2012). "Advanced Propulsion Physics: Harnessing the Quantum Vacuum" (PDF). Nuclear and Emerging Technologies for Space. Retrieved 29 January 2013.
http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meetings/nets2012/pdf/3082.pdf
https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=31119.0;attach=496011
The Woodward Effect: Math Modeling and Continued Experimental Verifications at 2 to 4 MHz
Paul March and Andrew Palfreyman
AIP Conf. Proc. 813, 1321 (2006); http://dx.doi.org/10.1063/1.2169317
Conference date: 12-16 February 2006
Location: Albuquerque, New Mexico (USA)
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#1376 by Monomorphic on 18 Apr, 2016 13:20
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Hey Dave, I had great results using rigid foam insulation as a backing when cutting the copper. It holds together a lot better than the cardboard backing that ships with the copper. This is the stuff I used. They have smaller square pieces for much less cost. http://www.homedepot.com/p/Owens-Corning-FOAMULAR-150-2-in-x-4-ft-x-8-ft-R-10-Scored-Squared-Edge-Insulation-Sheathing-45W/100320352 -
#1377 by Monomorphic on 18 Apr, 2016 13:30
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I think one of the problems i'm having detecting IR heat patterns is the difference in copper thickness. NASA used 0.5mm copper, while I am using 1mm. Doubling the thickness of the metal is going to cause the heat to spread out more quickly. I still need to do some runs with the three layers of paint, and a completely cooled frustum, but I am thinking about building a frustum with thinner copper to see if it makes a difference. The thinner stuff is easier to work with as well.
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#1378 by Rodal on 18 Apr, 2016 13:31
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As previously remarked in my posts, the concerns about HDPE "being able to handle the heat" expressed by another person (not you) may be completely misguided, the HDPE is being used as a dielectric insert for electromagnetic purposes. It is not used as a screw to hold something in place:
...3. Would a silicone based polymer be better as a dielectric as it would be better able to handle the heat.
1) arising from people incorrectly confusing the glass transition temperature (Tg) with the melting temperature (Tm)
2) the temperature dependence of HDPE may actually be the reason why there is a special effect occurring, as both the real and imaginary parts of the complex permittivity are strong functions of temperature and frequency near the Tg. This affects the index of refraction, it therefore affects the group velocity.
3) it is incongrous to be concerned about dielectrics exceeding the Tg solely on the basis of the material stiffness decreasing with temperature. For example, most rubber materials are above their Tg at ambient temperature (that is one way to define rubbery properties: for the temperature to be above the Tg). Does that mean that one cannot use a rubber material (like silicone rubber, which has a Tg below room temperature, but a high melting point Tm) as a dielectric according to this people ?
The purpose of a dielectric in a resonant electromagnetic cavity like the EM Drive is not for structural reasons, the purpose is not to have a particular stiffness, the purpose of a dielectric is due to its electromagnetic properties. -
#1379 by rfmwguy on 18 Apr, 2016 13:47
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Thanks Jamie, you might cringe, but I've been practicing with aircraft snips and may do it by hand. Snips I have are straight, left and right hand so can handle the curves pretty well. I used a jigsaw for the 1/8 think endplates for the rough circular cut and a grinding wheel for the finish. Came out pretty good, just labor intensive. Have some tooling ordered to form the lip seam, that should arrive this week. I'll do the cuts and then edge cleanup and polishing before they get here. Assembled the drive using the template and it looks very acceptable. Will sand the top and bottom diameter edges flat with planing table for proper dimensions. Should have this thing completed by end of month. Cleaned out shop in prep for reassembly of test stand...mid-may still looks good for Phase II tests to begin. Good luck on your testing, you must be close.
Hey Dave, I had great results using rigid foam insulation as a backing when cutting the copper. It holds together a lot better than the cardboard backing that ships with the copper. This is the stuff I used. They have smaller square pieces for much less cost. http://www.homedepot.com/p/Owens-Corning-FOAMULAR-150-2-in-x-4-ft-x-8-ft-R-10-Scored-Squared-Edge-Insulation-Sheathing-45W/100320352
