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#1020
by
Eusa
on 06 Apr, 2016 20:18
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Why microwaves? Why not visible light? How about 100 MHz radio wave and 3m long cavity?
NSF user Monomorphic discussed planned experiments using lasers. Resonance at hundreds of MHz radio waves in bigger cavities has also been discussed by other NSF members.
Microwave resonance, particularly at 2.45 GHz frequency of standard magnetrons were the first reported experiments by Shawyer, and later by Yang. Several DIY use 2.45 GHz also, with standard magnetrons used in microwave ovens.
The Aachen team has explored 24 GHz with their Baby EM Drive.
Ok, thanks.
My quantum gravity theory predicts that it's important for g-drive that the electro component was eliminated in standing wave as much as possible. It could be best that the radiation is sharply monocromatic but fluently non-coherent. The wavelenght must be exactly dividible with the distance between reflectors.
To be specific, does your theory say whether it is better to have either one of these kinds of mode shapes?
1) TE (transverse electric) mode shape having only a magnetic component along the longitudinal direction of the cavity
2) TM (transverse magnetic) mode shape having only an electric component along the longitudinal direction of the cavity
TE mode would be better, I think.
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#1021
by
Rodal
on 06 Apr, 2016 20:20
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The missing side walls are reality. Deal with it and maybe learn something?
What was it said about your secret project? Non metallic frustum not intended for space use or something like that?
BTW Roger does NOT use an antenna to inject the short Rf pulse into his cryo frustums.
...
DO NOT REMOVE ANY WALL OF THE CAVITY BEFORE OR WHILE FIRING THE MAGNETRON! IT IS DANGEROUS!
EXCELLENT !!
Beautiful demonstration of why one must think about FIELDS
instead of photon light rays to understand the EM Drive under RF frequency.
One can see the near-field patterns not being at all what one would expect based on far-field rays.
Thank you !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
VERY UNSAFE TO REMOVE SIDE WALLS
and for comparison:
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#1022
by
Rodal
on 06 Apr, 2016 20:30
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...
TE mode would be better, I think.
Your creative ideas stimulate the imaginative exploration of this phenomena.
NSF user Monomorphic is going to be using an interferometer and also had long term plans for a laser optical cavity in the EM Drive. Stay around to see what Monomorphic reports
Also SeeShells is planning to use an interferometer: her experiment has a quartz rod along the longitudinal axis of axi-symmetry of the EM Drive.
Unfortunately NASA stopped public discussion of the White-Juday interferometer experiments...
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#1023
by
X_RaY
on 06 Apr, 2016 20:32
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The missing side walls are reality. Deal with it and maybe learn something?
What was it said about your secret project? Non metallic frustum not intended for space use or something like that?
BTW Roger does NOT use an antenna to inject the short Rf pulse into his cryo frustums.
...
DO NOT REMOVE ANY WALL OF THE CAVITY BEFORE OR WHILE FIRING THE MAGNETRON! IT IS DANGEROUS!
EXCELLENT !!
Beautiful demonstration of why one must think about FIELDS instead of photon light rays to understand the EM Drive under RF frequency.
A maser is not a laser.
One can see the near-field patterns not being at all what one would expect based on far-field rays.
Thank you !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
VERY UNSAFE TO REMOVE SIDE WALLS
and for comparison:
It's not better using the tapered walls or other frequencies! This is not a far field with
simple reflection (like a laser bean on a mirror) and
the dimension of the structure is in the order of the wavelength.
Therefore the radiation easily escape from these kind of structures.
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#1024
by
SeeShells
on 06 Apr, 2016 21:29
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...
TE mode would be better, I think.
Your creative ideas stimulate the imaginative exploration of this phenomena.
NSF user Monomorphic is going to be using an interferometer and also had long term plans for a laser optical cavity in the EM Drive. Stay around to see what Monomorphic reports
Also SeeShells is planning to use an interferometer: her experiment has a quartz rod along the longitudinal axis of axi-symmetry of the EM Drive.
Unfortunately NASA stopped public discussion of the White-Juday interferometer experiments...
I will need to pick monomorphic's brain on doing the inferometer down the quartz rod. It's still on the list
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#1025
by
Rodal
on 06 Apr, 2016 22:26
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The missing side walls are reality. Deal with it and maybe learn something?
What was it said about your secret project? Non metallic frustum not intended for space use or something like that?
BTW Roger does NOT use an antenna to inject the short Rf pulse into his cryo frustums.
...
DO NOT REMOVE ANY WALL OF THE CAVITY BEFORE OR WHILE FIRING THE MAGNETRON! IT IS DANGEROUS!
EXCELLENT !!
Beautiful demonstration of why one must think about FIELDS instead of photon light rays to understand the EM Drive under RF frequency.
A maser is not a laser.
One can see the near-field patterns not being at all what one would expect based on far-field rays.
Thank you !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
VERY UNSAFE TO REMOVE SIDE WALLS
and for comparison:
It's not better using the tapered walls or other frequencies! This is not a far field with simple reflection (like a laser bean on a mirror) and the dimension of the structure is in the order of the wavelength.
Therefore the radiation easily escape from these kind of structures.
Can FEKO calculate a quality of resonance Q for the case with no side walls ?
to compare with the Q with walls ?
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#1026
by
Vesc
on 06 Apr, 2016 22:29
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...
OK, I'll bite. Frankly I don't get the objection. ...
Please search for the posts by Frobnicat (preferably using "Google Advanced Search", who has thoroughly dealt with this, including frame-indifference, and the issues you discuss. Frobnicat has a lot of posts discussing this in previous threads.
ok, found this article:
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=37438.msg1369806#msg1369806
Now I get it. Yes. I don't see this as constant acceleration for constant power in....
Breaking my silence for once. A "over unity" scheme does not need constant acceleration with constant power, it needs constant force with constant power input.
Yes I agree for all the reasons you give. I shouldn't post so late at night. Thank you so much for the response and I appreciate the return from the hiatus to correct a faulty observation on my part.
Dave
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#1027
by
Monomorphic
on 06 Apr, 2016 22:43
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Can FEKO calculate a quality of resonance Q for the case with no side walls ?
I hit a roadblock calculating Q in FEKO. Can't seem to get the trace I need to measure reflection coefficient bandwidth (keep getting an error message). I'm glad you mentioned this because I was going to get with XRay and try and find the solution.
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#1028
by
Vesc
on 06 Apr, 2016 22:49
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The missing side walls are reality. Deal with it and maybe learn something?
What was it said about your secret project? Non metallic frustum not intended for space use or something like that?
BTW Roger does NOT use an antenna to inject the short Rf pulse into his cryo frustums.
...
DO NOT REMOVE ANY WALL OF THE CAVITY BEFORE OR WHILE FIRING THE MAGNETRON! IT IS DANGEROUS!
EXCELLENT !!
Beautiful demonstration of why one must think about FIELDS instead of photon light rays to understand the EM Drive under RF frequency.
One can see the near-field patterns not being at all what one would expect based on far-field rays.
Thank you !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
VERY UNSAFE TO REMOVE SIDE WALLS
Before we freq. out (ahem!)
too much it looks to me like there are two components to the cryogenic version. Looks to me like there is an outer metallic cylinder that encases the pie-slice inner piece with the missing sidewalls. To illustrate what I mean, look again at the first picture:
I'll bet dollars-to-donuts that cylinder on the left is an "outer" cylinder and is grounded. The pie slice frustum piece with no side walls on the right would fit inside the cylinder on the left. It would make sense because the outer cylinder would have to contain the coolant. Thus one fits inside the other as shown in the picture given. Also what would tend to confirm this in my thinking is the big chunk of what appears to by styrofoam on the top of the piece on the right. A thermal insulating lid, where the external connections are made outside the "dewer" and at room temperature.
As further confirmation look at the next photo here:
What you see on the scale is what appears to be only the cylinder shown on the left in the previous photo. That's probably because when fully assembled to pie slice piece is already inside.
Without dimensions it's hard to know how the EM fields in this contraption will be like.
I think that clears up the mystery and danger as well.
Dave
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#1029
by
MazonDel
on 07 Apr, 2016 00:13
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Good observation Vesc!
I agree that it does appear that the drive goes inside the cylinder, and if that were the case, can anyone see any reason why the lack of sidewalls would cause any issues?
Speaking about sidewalls, did that analysis on the importance of smooth/perfect sidewalls ever get completed? I might have missed it. I remember seeing the analysis about the end plates but I'm not certain if the sidewall analysis ever got posted.
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#1030
by
Monomorphic
on 07 Apr, 2016 00:21
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I agree that it does appear that the drive goes inside the cylinder, and if that were the case, can anyone see any reason why the lack of sidewalls would cause any issues?
Lack of side walls would cause the RF to bounce around inside the dewer. This would introduce interference and lower Q by a great deal. The RF needs to be contained within the wedge cavity.
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#1031
by
zen-in
on 07 Apr, 2016 04:00
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#1032
by
spupeng7
on 07 Apr, 2016 07:10
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What I am picturing is a commercial linear air bearing with a fly height of 0.0005". Either the loading of the bearing would close the gap slightly or the pressure regulation can be changed to reach a region of self compensating air gap.= (they perform better loaded than unloaded). Either way, the gap in the bearing would be a second order effect on the measurement because it is perpendicular to the axis of measurement. The payload would be placed on the moving portion, the pressurized section (stator) would be anchored to ground. A horizontal pull rod would stretch between the moving portion and the tuning fork scale. The scale would be tipped on edge 90-deg to its normal usage. The whole apparatus would be purposely inclined a few degrees to stretch the pull wire and preload the scale. It would sit there in static equilibrium with a force reading on the scale. The scale would be tared and the experiment turned on. Any thrust would cause the scale to respond. I would use the Vibra scale with 0.0001 gram resolution.
There is no motion from the bearing because the transducer's deflection under load will be in the few millionths of an inch. No jeweled orifices become uncovered. All level errors are rendered moot. There is no out of parallel. Sag is insignificant. If any of these did sneak through the taring would cancel it. CTE issues are mostly gone. There is no response to thermal chimney effect. Little response to hot-air ballooning and battery mass change.
Otlski,
am very impressed by the measurement setup you recommend in this post. The 60 GHz experiment I am building has a mass of about 800g including batteries and casing. The frustum will be tiny with a wavelength of just 5mm so it has a very low predicted output.
My question is this, could the linear air bearing in the setup you suggest, be replaced by a solid vertical flexible bearing mounted on a rigid upright? This would allow slight rotary motion of a horizontal beam about the vertical axis of flexure. Preload could then be against the flex so that the hinge axis remains vertical and there is one less moving part.
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#1033
by
spupeng7
on 07 Apr, 2016 07:33
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I agree that it does appear that the drive goes inside the cylinder, and if that were the case, can anyone see any reason why the lack of sidewalls would cause any issues?
Lack of side walls would cause the RF to bounce around inside the dewer. This would introduce interference and lower Q by a great deal. The RF needs to be contained within the wedge cavity.
Monomorphic,
would this still be the case if there was no container and a relatively harmless 60GHz was being used?
What I am trying to ask is, can a resonance be maintained between parallel plates without sides?
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#1034
by
Oakey
on 07 Apr, 2016 13:07
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Hi Traveller,
this looks like a reflection. It looks like fully incased metal structure with many temp probes. Some internal some maybe in nitrogen stored in a dewer. Looks like it also has infra red power detector and sensor. I would expect the back would have the detector in same layout as front. Interesting!
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#1035
by
Oakey
on 07 Apr, 2016 13:14
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Also the full set up looks like microwave or rf guide passes through top of assembly to the hole when assembled. That's how I would do it. Excited from tapered end?
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#1036
by
Monomorphic
on 07 Apr, 2016 13:16
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would this still be the case if there was no container and a relatively harmless 60GHz was being used?
What I am trying to ask is, can a resonance be maintained between parallel plates without sides?
I shrank the wedge, removed two of the side walls, and ran a sweep from 60 to 70Ghz. All I got was this same e-field pattern. None of the more interesting modes were present. Basically it's just an antenna at this point.
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#1037
by
Oakey
on 07 Apr, 2016 13:21
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Judging by thickness of the walls it may even have been under partial vacuum, but also to account for thermal stresses.
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#1038
by
Monomorphic
on 07 Apr, 2016 13:26
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Also the full set up looks like microwave or rf guide passes through top of assembly to the hole when assembled. That's how I would do it. Excited from tapered end?
I've marked in red the coax cables. Again we see what looks like two ports into the cavity on the side walls. I do not see any indication that this is being excited from the small tapered end.
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#1039
by
rfmwguy
on 07 Apr, 2016 13:26
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Tangent Alert for New Physics for Spaceflight Section Readers -
I've invited a couple of very special guests who will likely post in my other thread today or tomorrow:
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=39974.0Its the Nassikas Superconducting Lorentz Thruster - related to space flight applications Topic
You might want to subscribe for notifications or check it once in a while. Its in the same family as all reactionless thrusters including the EMDrive and Mach Thruster.
too much it looks to me like there are two components to the cryogenic version. Looks to me like there is an outer metallic cylinder that encases the pie-slice inner piece with the missing sidewalls. To illustrate what I mean, look again at the first picture: