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#1000 by zen-in on 06 Apr, 2016 14:03
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I don't understand why everyone is saying there are missing sidewalls. The picture below shows metal walls.
Metal walls? Suggest you zoom into this image and have another look at the right side semi transparent glued on membrane and the sensor wire penetrations.
The full test setup is also attached.
When I zoom in I see the reflection of the dewar it is sitting next to. The flat metallic coverings are metal. They are not some kind of plastic. What material do you think they are? -
#1001 by sghill on 06 Apr, 2016 14:19
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Why would he have a large hole in the top small plate?
30 mm is the standard hole size for magnetron injection into a consumer microwave oven.
Top-mounted waveguide entrance? A simple top vent that doesn't affect operation?
Looks about 20-30mm sized IMHO.
Cool, but have we ever talked about top mounted injection?
And is RS going to have this thing sealed or is the cryro fluid going to fill the cavity as well? If so, there have to be entrance and exit vents (there will be a lot of immediate boiling as well. Have we ever talked about top and and bottom vents, and does it matter in the scheme of things?
And his setup doesn't look like a waveguide is going to be snaked into that hole. There's very little space above it. I'm thinking it's a vent not a port. On the gripping hand, it could come straight in through the black top plate, through the insulation, and into that port I suppose... -
#1002 by Kenjee on 06 Apr, 2016 14:51
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I thought the same thing at first but what bothers me is nothing else shows up in the reflections, like wires, a bit of a conundrum.
I can see the reflection of the white plastic bar. I also see no evidence of internal reflections along the sharp edge of the glue. If the surface were partially transparent, there should be a faded outline.
Watching you for a long time and finaly can ofer you my expertise in VFX and image manipulation and analysis. (20 years)
Monomorphic`s observation is spot on. There is no sign of refraction in any area (only in tubes).
This is a metalic surface with fresnel reflections.
If you like I can reconstruct angles of reflection later. -
#1003 by rfmwguy on 06 Apr, 2016 15:00
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Yes, I have top mounted injection on large plate, only one doing this I think. without a size ref, can't tell if this is a vent or injection port.Why would he have a large hole in the top small plate?
30 mm is the standard hole size for magnetron injection into a consumer microwave oven.
Top-mounted waveguide entrance? A simple top vent that doesn't affect operation?
Looks about 20-30mm sized IMHO.
Cool, but have we ever talked about top mounted injection?
And is RS going to have this thing sealed or is the cryro fluid going to fill the cavity as well? If so, there have to be entrance and exit vents (there will be a lot of immediate boiling as well. Have we ever talked about top and and bottom vents, and does it matter in the scheme of things?
And his setup doesn't look like a waveguide is going to be snaked into that hole. There's very little space above it. I'm thinking it's a vent not a port. On the gripping hand, it could come straight in through the black top plate, through the insulation, and into that port I suppose... -
#1004 by Rodal on 06 Apr, 2016 15:00
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I thought the same thing at first but what bothers me is nothing else shows up in the reflections, like wires, a bit of a conundrum.
I can see the reflection of the white plastic bar. I also see no evidence of internal reflections along the sharp edge of the glue. If the surface were partially transparent, there should be a faded outline.
Watching you for a long time and finaly can ofer you my expertise in VFX and image manipulation and analysis. (20 years)
Monomorphic`s observation is spot on. There is no sign of refraction in any area (only in tubes).
This is a metalic surface with fresnel reflections.
If you like I can reconstruct angles of reflection later.
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#1005 by Monomorphic on 06 Apr, 2016 17:15
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Why would he have a large hole in the top small plate?
My guess about the hole at the top is so the cryogenic fluid can come into direct contact with the end-plate. The hole is in the structural plates, not end-plates. I bet there's another hole on the large side.
Top-mounted waveguide entrance? A simple top vent that doesn't affect operation?
Looks about 20-30mm sized IMHO.
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#1006 by Tellmeagain on 06 Apr, 2016 18:08
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Would somebody enlighten me why the details of this super-conductive frustum draw much interest? As far as I can tell, it did not work.
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#1007 by Rodal on 06 Apr, 2016 18:16
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Would somebody enlighten me why the details of this super-conductive frustum draw much interest? As far as I can tell, it did not work.
My understanding is that the sequence of events was the following:
1) thanks to Monomorphic running FEKO Boundary Element numerical solutions of the electromagnetic fields inside cavities with different geometries, we were able to understand the role of the geometry particularly the side walls, as affecting the taper angle of the cavity, as well as the distance between the walls, on the mode shapes and the "continuous stretching of the wavelength" towards the small end of a tapered waveguide. The following geometries were explored:
a) Frustum of a cone
b) Four sided Wedge having two tapered sides and two parallel sides (as in the BBC video featuring Mr. Shawyer)
c) Frustum of a pyramid with square or rectangular bases
d) Four sided Wedge having tapered sides on both orthogonal directions
e) "Pizza slice" with inner circular boundary as in the superconducting frustum of Mr. Shawyer
f) Wedged "pizza slice"
2) Upon discussion of the results for the superconducting frustum of Mr. Shawyer, NSF user TheTraveller posted a few posts stating that he had realized that Shawyer's wedge-shaped superconducting frustum had no lateral metallic walls, and that we should pay attention to this.
3) These posts by TheTraveller stating that the "cryo-thruster" of Mr. Shawyer had no metal walls prompted a number of responses:
a) questioning whether such a wedge-shaped superconducting frustum can resonate as an electromagnetic cavity with high Q, having no metal walls. There will be considerable leaking of microwave radiation power through the opened sides. (Optical cavities using lasers being an exception of course, but the experiments being discussed concerning the EM Drive are not using lasers).
b) questioning the safety of conducting experiments of any frustum at powers of ~100 watts or more without metallic walls, since the near-field would be such that escaping radiation will be hazardous to human beings, and that therefore Mr. Shawyer would not likely have done that.
c) questioning whether the picture shows a frustum with no side walls, or a frustum with transparent solid walls, or a frustum with metallic reflecting walls.
__________
PS: Concerning <<super-conductive frustum draw much interest? As far as I can tell, it did not work.>> could you please post more information regarding that it did not work? This would be appreciated by those of us not aware of those null experimental results of Shawyer's super-conductive frustum. -
#1008 by Eusa on 06 Apr, 2016 18:30
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Why microwaves? Why not visible light? How about 100 MHz radio wave and 3m long cavity?
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#1009 by Rodal on 06 Apr, 2016 18:33
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Why microwaves? Why not visible light? How about 100 MHz radio wave and 3m long cavity?
NSF user Monomorphic discussed planned experiments using lasers. Proposed resonance at hundreds of MHz radio waves in bigger cavities has also been discussed by other NSF members.
Microwave resonance, particularly at 2.45 GHz frequency of standard magnetrons were the first reported experiments by Shawyer, and later by Yang. Several DIY use 2.45 GHz also, with standard magnetrons used in microwave ovens.
The Aachen team has explored 24 GHz with their Baby EM Drive. -
#1010 by Eusa on 06 Apr, 2016 18:57
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Ok, thanks.Why microwaves? Why not visible light? How about 100 MHz radio wave and 3m long cavity?
NSF user Monomorphic discussed planned experiments using lasers. Resonance at hundreds of MHz radio waves in bigger cavities has also been discussed by other NSF members.
Microwave resonance, particularly at 2.45 GHz frequency of standard magnetrons were the first reported experiments by Shawyer, and later by Yang. Several DIY use 2.45 GHz also, with standard magnetrons used in microwave ovens.
The Aachen team has explored 24 GHz with their Baby EM Drive.
My quantum gravity theory predicts that it's important for g-drive that the electro component was eliminated in standing wave as much as possible. It could be best that the radiation is sharply monocromatic but fluently non-coherent. The wavelenght must be exactly dividible with the distance between reflectors. -
#1011 by Rodal on 06 Apr, 2016 19:10
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Ok, thanks.Why microwaves? Why not visible light? How about 100 MHz radio wave and 3m long cavity?
NSF user Monomorphic discussed planned experiments using lasers. Resonance at hundreds of MHz radio waves in bigger cavities has also been discussed by other NSF members.
Microwave resonance, particularly at 2.45 GHz frequency of standard magnetrons were the first reported experiments by Shawyer, and later by Yang. Several DIY use 2.45 GHz also, with standard magnetrons used in microwave ovens.
The Aachen team has explored 24 GHz with their Baby EM Drive.
My quantum gravity theory predicts that it's important for g-drive that the electro component was eliminated in standing wave as much as possible. It could be best that the radiation is sharply monocromatic but fluently non-coherent. The wavelenght must be exactly dividible with the distance between reflectors.
To be specific, does your theory say whether it is better to have either one of these kinds of mode shapes?
1) TE (transverse electric) mode shape having only a magnetic component along the longitudinal direction of the cavity
2) TM (transverse magnetic) mode shape having only an electric component along the longitudinal direction of the cavity -
#1012 by Rodal on 06 Apr, 2016 19:14
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...My quantum gravity theory predicts that it's important for g-drive that the electro component was eliminated in standing wave as much as possible. It could be best that the radiation is sharply monocromatic ...
Then is my understanding correct that your theory states that the worst kind of Radio Frequency excitation would be using a Magnetron (as initially used by Shawyer but no longer used by Shawyer, according to TheTraveller, and as presently used by many DIY: for example rfmwguy, etc.) because the frequency instead of being monochromatic, it has quite a band of frequencies continuously jumping around from frequency to frequency, under amplitude, and frequency modulation. -
#1013 by Rodal on 06 Apr, 2016 19:23
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... It could be best that the radiation is sharply monocromatic but fluently non-coherent. The wavelenght must be exactly dividible with the distance between reflectors.
My mathematical understanding of coherent radiation is that the phases of the wave-patterns representing the radiation should differ by a known phase constant, and that incoherence means that the phase differences are random and unknown in principle.
So by "fluently non-coherent" do you mean to have random phase changes that are not known a priori? Or does "fluently" mean something in particular in this context when referring to non-coherence? -
#1014 by Rodal on 06 Apr, 2016 19:29
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...The wavelenght must be exactly dividible with the distance between reflectors.
The problem with precisely reading "exactly divisible" in that statement is that, inside a cavity:
* The wavelength inside a cavity is different from the wavelength in free-space. The wavelength inside a tapered cavity (the EM Drive) is not uniquely defined. The wavelength instead of being a constant, it is a function of the longitudinal location direction of the tapered cavity.
There is not a single wavelength, but the wavelength is a continuous function of the longitudinal distance from the big end to the small end, such that the wavelength increases monotonically, smoothly and continuously from big end to small end.
Here is a typical picture for an EM Drive, where the wavelength changes smoothly and continuously by ~8%
Therefore, since there is not a unique wavelength, but an infinity of wavelengths, how is the statement
<<.The wavelenght must be exactly dividible with the distance between reflectors.>>
to be interpreted for a tapered cavity like the EM Drive where the wavelength increases monotonically by 8% from big end to small end ? -
#1015 by Eusa on 06 Apr, 2016 19:49
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Ok....The wavelenght must be exactly dividible with the distance between reflectors.
The problem with precisely reading "exactly divisible" in that statement is that, inside a cavity:
* The wavelength inside a cavity is different from the wavelength in free-space. The wavelength inside a tapered cavity (the EM Drive) is not uniquely defined. The wavelength instead of being a constant, it is a function of the longitudinal location direction of the tapered cavity.
There is not a single wavelength, but the wavelength is a continuous function of the longitudinal distance from the big end to the small end, such that the wavelength increases monotonically, smoothly and continuously from big end to small end.
Here is a typical picture for an EM Drive, where the wavelength changes smoothly and continuously by ~8%
Therefore, since there is not a unique wavelength, but an infinity of wavelengths, how is the statement
<<.The wavelenght must be exactly dividible with the distance between reflectors.>>
to be interpreted for a tapered cavity like the EM Drive where the wavelength increases monotonically by 8% from big end to small end ?
In any case the aim is to get reflective wave eliminating transverse component so that electric inductive disturbances will disappear.
Maybe I have totally wrong practical ideas. I have no experience on this kind of radiation cavities.
Hm. Did you take account that in g-drive scheme the "plates" are spherical mirrors, concave and convex?
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#1016 by Rodal on 06 Apr, 2016 19:57
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Ok....The wavelenght must be exactly dividible with the distance between reflectors.
The problem with precisely reading "exactly divisible" in that statement is that, inside a cavity:
* The wavelength inside a cavity is different from the wavelength in free-space. The wavelength inside a tapered cavity (the EM Drive) is not uniquely defined. The wavelength instead of being a constant, it is a function of the longitudinal location direction of the tapered cavity.
There is not a single wavelength, but the wavelength is a continuous function of the longitudinal distance from the big end to the small end, such that the wavelength increases monotonically, smoothly and continuously from big end to small end.
Here is a typical picture for an EM Drive, where the wavelength changes smoothly and continuously by ~8%
Therefore, since there is not a unique wavelength, but an infinity of wavelengths, how is the statement
<<.The wavelenght must be exactly dividible with the distance between reflectors.>>
to be interpreted for a tapered cavity like the EM Drive where the wavelength increases monotonically by 8% from big end to small end ?
In any case the aim is to get reflective wave eliminating transverse component so that electric inductive disturbances will disappear.
Maybe I have totally wrong practical ideas. I have no experience on this kind of radiation cavities.
Hm. Did you take account that in g-drive scheme the "plates" are spherical mirrors, concave and convex?
1) All ideas are encouraged to understand the EM Drive claimed phenomena and we hope you continue to explain your ideas.
2) The "monotonically, continuously changing wavelength" along the longitudinal direction of a resonant cavity follows exactly for concave and convex ends as a solution of Maxwell equations. For a truncated cone, the functions are spherical Bessel functions.
Please see this for example: http://gregegan.customer.netspace.net.au/SCIENCE/Cavity/Cavity.html
3) Perhaps your ideas must only apply to a laser between the convex and convave mirrors, like in an optical cavity ?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optical_cavity -
#1017 by FattyLumpkin on 06 Apr, 2016 20:06
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Back to the super cooled thruster--must admit I wasn't as observant as I should have been: ask where the shadow is, and look at the LT quadrant (wall) of the thruster... note the reflectivity and in the shadow nonetheless. On the (RT) quadrant-wall (with the glue), light appears to be shining from the side corner. Given the amount of reflectivity noted on the "shadowed" side I would surmise that the glued up RT side would appear far more reflective than the LT. Question as to what metal? compound is involved here. FL
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#1018 by X_RaY on 06 Apr, 2016 20:08
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The missing side walls are reality. Deal with it and maybe learn something?
What was it said about your secret project? Non metallic frustum not intended for space use or something like that?
BTW Roger does NOT use an antenna to inject the short Rf pulse into his cryo frustums.
...
DO NOT REMOVE ANY WALL OF THE CAVITY BEFORE OR WHILE FIRING THE MAGNETRON! IT IS DANGEROUS!
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#1019 by Eusa on 06 Apr, 2016 20:12
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Quote from: Rodal
3) Perhaps your ideas must only apply to a laser between the convex and convave mirrors, like in an optical cavity ?
Thanks! That really describes something familiar...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optical_cavity