Author Topic: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3  (Read 827342 times)

Offline CameronD

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #1220 on: 06/21/2016 11:52 PM »

fuel is cheap.

and the scales just got tipped $15K towards fly-back, which they already wanted to do anyway (speed, less exposure to salt water, weather damage, etc).

As the latest landing attempt indicated, they're a long ways from fly-back right now.
With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine - however, this is not necessarily a good idea. It is hard to be sure where they are
going to land, and it could be dangerous sitting under them as they fly overhead.

Offline Robotbeat

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #1221 on: 06/22/2016 12:30 AM »

fuel is cheap.

and the scales just got tipped $15K towards fly-back, which they already wanted to do anyway (speed, less exposure to salt water, weather damage, etc).

As the latest landing attempt indicated, they're a long ways from fly-back right now.
RTLS or self-ferrying from the barge back to the launch site?
Chris  Whoever loves correction loves knowledge, but he who hates reproof is stupid.

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Offline Herb Schaltegger


fuel is cheap.

and the scales just got tipped $15K towards fly-back, which they already wanted to do anyway (speed, less exposure to salt water, weather damage, etc).

As the latest landing attempt indicated, they're a long ways from fly-back right now.
RTLS or self-ferrying from the barge back to the launch site?

RTLS as the usual CONOPS is a lot closer, with F9 1.2.xwyxzwtfbbq Full(er) Thrust and/or the switch to FH for largish payloads, than self-ferrying. There are SO many pragmatic, operational issues with self-ferrying that I honestly don't expect to see anything like it for at least 10 years.
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Offline raketa

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #1223 on: 06/22/2016 01:54 AM »

fuel is cheap.

and the scales just got tipped $15K towards fly-back, which they already wanted to do anyway (speed, less exposure to salt water, weather damage, etc).

As the latest landing attempt indicated, they're a long ways from fly-back right now.
I don't think so, they are very close if they have enough fuel.
How much fuel falcon 9 need to return safely to landing side?

Offline envy887

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #1224 on: 06/22/2016 02:05 AM »
They were about 1000 kg of payload too heavy to be able to RTLS. More like 1600 kg too heavy if it going to that higher energy orbit.

Offline CameronD

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #1225 on: 06/22/2016 05:20 AM »
I don't think so, they are very close if they have enough fuel.
How much fuel falcon 9 need to return safely to landing side?

They have yet to demonstrate ANY attempt to refuel, leave alone re-fly, a landed stage at sea.

In fact the total lack of any provision in the current ASDS design/layout or on any of the support ships for transportable RP-1/LOX storage and loading facilities makes me wonder if they actually ever plan to do anything other than ferry any landed stages back to Port the way they currently do.

..but what would I know?  I'm just sittin' in my armchair watching all this from the other side of the world. :)
« Last Edit: 06/22/2016 05:22 AM by CameronD »
With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine - however, this is not necessarily a good idea. It is hard to be sure where they are
going to land, and it could be dangerous sitting under them as they fly overhead.

Offline gadgetmind

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #1226 on: 06/22/2016 09:12 AM »
Especially if one of the stated reasons is that the port feels they need to heighten security while a Falcon stage is in port.

That's actually a valid reason to charge more, unlike mentioning weight, which came across as deeply bogus.

Offline Barrie

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #1227 on: 06/22/2016 10:04 AM »
Especially if one of the stated reasons is that the port feels they need to heighten security while a Falcon stage is in port.

That's actually a valid reason to charge more, unlike mentioning weight, which came across as deeply bogus.

Yes, and I get the impression that the arrival of an ASDS might take a disproportionate amount of attention from pilots and harbour masters.  There are several vessels involved, and several large vehicles on the land side of things.  They need to negotiate a fair return for the port authority.

Gearing the charges to the weight of the stage seems really lame.

Offline foragefarmer

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #1228 on: 06/22/2016 10:18 AM »
Especially if one of the stated reasons is that the port feels they need to heighten security while a Falcon stage is in port.

That's actually a valid reason to charge more, unlike mentioning weight, which came across as deeply bogus.

Yes, and I get the impression that the arrival of an ASDS might take a disproportionate amount of attention from pilots and harbour masters.  There are several vessels involved, and several large vehicles on the land side of things.  They need to negotiate a fair return for the port authority.

Gearing the charges to the weight of the stage seems really lame.

There is already provision in the fee schedule for the port to require added security and have Spacex pay for it.

People should read this http://www.portcanaveral.com/tariffs.aspx before they comment. Everything is charged out and accounted for. Daily docking fees are charged by the foot and the minimum one day fee is $271.
« Last Edit: 06/22/2016 10:22 AM by foragefarmer »

Offline Kabloona

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #1229 on: 06/22/2016 02:34 PM »
Meanwhile, in other ASDS news: it looks like CRS-9 will be an RTLS mission, so OCISLY will be idle until JCSAT-16, if she doesn't get sent off to drydock for inspection in the interim.

FCC has posted the JCSAT-16 transmitter permit application here:

https://apps.fcc.gov/oetcf/els/reports/STA_Print.cfm?mode=current&application_seq=72213&RequestTimeout=1000

Drone ship coordinates are:

28 6 11 N
74 34 0 W

This is about 45 miles west of the JCSAT-14 coordinates, ie closer to the Cape, which should mean better survival odds for the stage.

Update: AMOS-6 launch date was just announced as August 22. So this permit may be for AMOS-6, which is listed as 5500 kg. That's 700 kg more than JCSAT-14, which could explain the big difference in ASDS positions.
« Last Edit: 06/23/2016 02:10 PM by Kabloona »

Offline envy887

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #1230 on: 06/22/2016 02:51 PM »
JCSAT-14 went to 189 x 35957 km x 23.70 transfer orbit. How much will that come down if they stage earlier to land 45 miles shorter. Or do you think the 2nd stage has some extra available performance?

Offline edkyle99

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #1231 on: 06/22/2016 04:34 PM »
You assume the fee the port wants to charge isn't reasonable.
I see you ignored part where rate is 17 times of rate of other cargo.
I don't think it fair to compare the unloading of a cargo ship, which enters, unloads, and departs, with the SpaceX operation.  SpaceX has the landing platform and, what, two other ships that are docked in the port when they are not out at sea.  There's is a long-term presence.  They have had to deal with leaking kerosene and other stuff, deploying booms, etc. 

How much did the port charge NASA for the SRB recovery ships?

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Offline Zach Swena

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #1232 on: 06/22/2016 05:05 PM »
You assume the fee the port wants to charge isn't reasonable.
I see you ignored part where rate is 17 times of rate of other cargo.
I don't think it fair to compare the unloading of a cargo ship, which enters, unloads, and departs, with the SpaceX operation.  SpaceX has the landing platform and, what, two other ships that are docked in the port when they are not out at sea.  There's is a long-term presence.  They have had to deal with leaking kerosene and other stuff, deploying booms, etc. 

How much did the port charge NASA for the SRB recovery ships?

 - Ed Kyle

Wouldn't that fall under a monthly per square ft fee rather then a per booster fee?  Also, the kerosine leaks would be more likely when unloading a damaged booster, rather then what sounds like a fee for each recovered booster...  Fuel and hydrolic leaks are also something they have to deal with for any boat that comes in for repair on those types of systems.

Offline LastStarFighter

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #1233 on: 06/22/2016 05:24 PM »
You assume the fee the port wants to charge isn't reasonable.
I see you ignored part where rate is 17 times of rate of other cargo.
I don't think it fair to compare the unloading of a cargo ship, which enters, unloads, and departs, with the SpaceX operation.  SpaceX has the landing platform and, what, two other ships that are docked in the port when they are not out at sea.  There's is a long-term presence.  They have had to deal with leaking kerosene and other stuff, deploying booms, etc. 

How much did the port charge NASA for the SRB recovery ships?

 - Ed Kyle

I agree... A cargo ship comes in, ties the dock up for a day and unloads 100 of the 25t containers? Each of those getting taxed adds up fast. SpaceX comes in and ties up the dock for a day and unloads one 35t hazardous stage with a giant crane. Seems like the port authority folks are just trying to get paid fairly for usage. Unloading cargo ships and a rocket stage aren't apples to apples so I wouldn't expect the costs to be. If every cargo ship spent a day in port unloading one container I would think the port authority would charge them just as much as SpaceX.

Offline Jim

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #1234 on: 06/22/2016 05:25 PM »

I agree... A cargo ship comes in, ties the dock up for a day and unloads 100 of the 25t containers? Each of those getting taxed adds up fast. SpaceX comes in and ties up the dock for a day and unloads one 35t hazardous stage with a giant crane.

The docks is tied up for weeks between launches.   The only time it is not at the dock is for the few days each launch retrieving a booster.    And what is tied up is one barge, one tug and 2 support boats.
« Last Edit: 06/22/2016 05:27 PM by Jim »

Offline LastStarFighter

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #1235 on: 06/22/2016 05:39 PM »

I agree... A cargo ship comes in, ties the dock up for a day and unloads 100 of the 25t containers? Each of those getting taxed adds up fast. SpaceX comes in and ties up the dock for a day and unloads one 35t hazardous stage with a giant crane.

The docks is tied up for weeks between launches.   The only time it is not at the dock is for the few days each launch retrieving a booster.    And what is tied up is one barge, one tug and 2 support boats.

To be honest I'm surprised the Port Authority doesn't charge more.

Online guckyfan

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #1236 on: 06/22/2016 05:45 PM »
The docks is tied up for weeks between launches.   The only time it is not at the dock is for the few days each launch retrieving a booster.    And what is tied up is one barge, one tug and 2 support boats.

Don't you think there are charges for all of that already in place?

Offline Zach Swena

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #1237 on: 06/22/2016 05:51 PM »
Still, if it is because of the dock area used, shouldn't Spacex be charged a parking fee regardless of the number of boosters recovered?  What type of operation require a charge per booster?  So far I have security, which spacex already is billed for.  What else?

Offline AC in NC

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #1238 on: 06/22/2016 06:42 PM »
Still, if it is because of the dock area used, shouldn't Spacex be charged a parking fee regardless of the number of boosters recovered?  What type of operation require a charge per booster?  So far I have security, which spacex already is billed for.  What else?

Dockage is the charge for tying up charged per linear foot of overall length along the longest dimension
Cargo Grid Yard Area is the charge for dock area and is charged $811 per grid per 15 days
Wharfage is the charge for weight of cargo and is charged per ton based on various categories of material


Offline JamesH65

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #1239 on: 06/22/2016 08:02 PM »
Presumably SpaceX already pay dockage, so would it be correct to say this $15k is in addition to that?

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