Author Topic: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3  (Read 827004 times)

Online llanitedave

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #1200 on: 06/21/2016 05:08 AM »
The value of the 1st stage is what $20-$30 Million.  The harbor wants to charge $15k to un-load it from the drone ship.  Is this really a fight that SpaceX wants to have?  Pay the damn fee and move onto more important things.   

It's that same logic that keeps patent trolls in operation.

Elon needs to hire Lee Cheng from Newegg.com.
« Last Edit: 06/21/2016 05:09 AM by llanitedave »
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Offline yokem55

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #1201 on: 06/21/2016 05:39 AM »
The value of the 1st stage is what $20-$30 Million.  The harbor wants to charge $15k to un-load it from the drone ship.  Is this really a fight that SpaceX wants to have?  Pay the damn fee and move onto more important things.   

It's that same logic that keeps patent trolls in operation.

Elon needs to hire Lee Cheng from Newegg.com.
Its also aerospace industry pricing logic that Elon has hammered against for years. Just because something is 'aerospace' doesn't magically make it need to cost 10 times more.

The correct answer here is 'No' and giving in just invites more attempts to get shaken down. Now if the port can articulate what their additional security costs, then maybe SpaceX and the port can come to an arrangement, but 'just because' won't fly.
« Last Edit: 06/21/2016 05:41 AM by yokem55 »

Offline sfxtd

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #1202 on: 06/21/2016 05:51 AM »

Its also aerospace industry pricing logic that Elon has hammered against for years. Just because something is 'aerospace' doesn't magically make it need to cost 10 times more.

The correct answer here is 'No' and giving in just invites more attempts to get shaken down. Now if the port can articulate what their additional security costs, then maybe SpaceX and the port can come to an arrangement, but 'just because' won't fly.

The Port's reply is essentially "What is this convenient berth worth to you and your low-volume, high-value cargo?" and the negotiation continues from there.

Offline CameronD

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #1203 on: 06/21/2016 06:13 AM »
The correct answer here is 'No' and giving in just invites more attempts to get shaken down. Now if the port can articulate what their additional security costs, then maybe SpaceX and the port can come to an arrangement, but 'just because' won't fly.

The Port's reply is essentially "What is this convenient berth worth to you and your low-volume, high-value cargo?" and the negotiation continues from there.

I'm not sure that has anything to do with it - unless the Port can demonstrate a long line of customers waiting to use that particular berth.

As Yokem points out, the Port will need to justify why the extraordinary charge is required and after that, it's up to the two parties to come to some agreement.  If no agreement is reached, SpaceX will need to find another berth someplace else, 'cause the Port would be quite within their rights to kick them out for disturbing the peace and quiet of their pleasant little back-water every time the barge comes home from the sea. ;)

I do hope the Port ain't planning something as nefarious as using the $15k to pay for dedicated 24/7 web-cam coverage of each returned stage to increase their own online presence and popularity... 'cause the cost would be about right.
« Last Edit: 06/21/2016 06:22 AM by CameronD »
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Offline woods170

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #1204 on: 06/21/2016 08:24 AM »
The value of the 1st stage is what $20-$30 Million.  The harbor wants to charge $15k to un-load it from the drone ship.  Is this really a fight that SpaceX wants to have?  Pay the damn fee and move onto more important things.   
Wrong. It is in fact a fight worth fighting. If SpaceX decides to "just" pay the fee now, the port will be charging double next year. Greed is only stopped thru legal means.

Offline Brovane

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #1205 on: 06/21/2016 11:40 AM »
The value of the 1st stage is what $20-$30 Million.  The harbor wants to charge $15k to un-load it from the drone ship.  Is this really a fight that SpaceX wants to have?  Pay the damn fee and move onto more important things.   
Wrong. It is in fact a fight worth fighting. If SpaceX decides to "just" pay the fee now, the port will be charging double next year. Greed is only stopped thru legal means.

You assume the fee the port wants to charge isn't reasonable. 

Negotiate a multi-year deal at a mutually agreed upon price and move on to more important matters. 
"Look at that! If anybody ever said, "you'll be sitting in a spacecraft naked with a 134-pound backpack on your knees charging it", I'd have said "Aw, get serious". - John Young - Apollo-16

Online JamesH65

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #1206 on: 06/21/2016 12:56 PM »
If it is 14x what other users are charged, would you accept it as reasonable?

There may be some extra issues with long loads (but not weight, that's absurd) and crane storage. But $15k each seems a little steep.

Offline Kabloona

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #1207 on: 06/21/2016 01:21 PM »
If it is 14x what other users are charged, would you accept it as reasonable?

There may be some extra issues with long loads (but not weight, that's absurd) and crane storage. But $15k each seems a little steep.

Let's say the stage is worth $20M to SpaceX. $15,000/$20,000,000=0.00075. In other words, the $15k amounts to a 0.075% "import" tax.

A 0.075% tax? This is hardly Boston Tea Party material. They'll find some middle ground and move on.
« Last Edit: 06/21/2016 01:22 PM by Kabloona »

Offline gadgetmind

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #1208 on: 06/21/2016 01:32 PM »
In other words, the $15k amounts to a 0.075% "import" tax.

Maybe, but it was only "exported" 8 minutes earlier!

And would they charge this $15k for smoking debris like the SES-9 and Eutelsat/ABS stages?

Offline Kabloona

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #1209 on: 06/21/2016 01:54 PM »
In other words, the $15k amounts to a 0.075% "import" tax.

Maybe, but it was only "exported" 8 minutes earlier!

And would they charge this $15k for smoking debris like the SES-9 and Eutelsat/ABS stages?

If they go by hook weight on the crane, probably a lot less than 30 tons for this small pile of debris, so maybe they get a 75% discount.  ;)

Online JamesH65

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #1210 on: 06/21/2016 02:19 PM »
If it is 14x what other users are charged, would you accept it as reasonable?

There may be some extra issues with long loads (but not weight, that's absurd) and crane storage. But $15k each seems a little steep.

Let's say the stage is worth $20M to SpaceX. $15,000/$20,000,000=0.00075. In other words, the $15k amounts to a 0.075% "import" tax.

A 0.075% tax? This is hardly Boston Tea Party material. They'll find some middle ground and move on.

I guessing it's not the amount SpaceX are complaining about, but the fact that they are being charged more than anyone else for the same sort of thing. That's simply unfair.

If I've got anything from Musk over the last 10 years, it's that he really doesn't like unfair pricing.

Offline starsilk

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #1211 on: 06/21/2016 02:49 PM »
perhaps this will accelerate the plans to refuel and fly the stage back from the barge to land.

Offline Mader Levap

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #1212 on: 06/21/2016 04:11 PM »
You assume the fee the port wants to charge isn't reasonable.
I see you ignored part where rate is 17 times of rate of other cargo.
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Offline DecoLV

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #1213 on: 06/21/2016 04:13 PM »
Is it trapped? Is there really no way to get the ASDS thru the 401 drawbridge? I assume SpaceX could otherwise find a way to build a facility somewhere on the Banana River if it really wanted to.

Offline Jim

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #1214 on: 06/21/2016 04:15 PM »
quiet of their pleasant little back-water every time the barge comes home from the sea. ;)


It isn't a little back-water.  It was the 3rd (in 2014) and now likely the 2nd most busiest cruise port in the world.  That is their bread and butter.  Space related ops are just a novelty for the port.

Offline georgegassaway

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #1215 on: 06/21/2016 05:32 PM »
perhaps this will accelerate the plans to refuel and fly the stage back from the barge to land.
Because it would be a LOT CHEAPER to fly it back to land than $15k.

Uh, no, wait......

Anyway, the $15k fee would be ridiculous. May be a ploy as the high end number for a negotiation.

Offline the_other_Doug

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #1216 on: 06/21/2016 05:54 PM »
Not pointing fingers at anyone, but this reeks of an uninformed, emotional profiling-type response to the whole stink about how PortTV started calling all of us SpaceX fans an "undesirable criminal element" and as such we were tainting any SpaceX activities in the port by our unwholesome interest in them.

Especially if one of the stated reasons is that the port feels they need to heighten security while a Falcon stage is in port.  Again, that makes it sound like they feel having such a stage in port is an attractive nuisance that brings in an unwelcome, unsavory and security-challenging element that would not otherwise be the case.

Just sayin'...
-Doug  (With my shield, not yet upon it)

Offline Lar

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #1217 on: 06/21/2016 06:14 PM »
The value of the 1st stage is what $20-$30 Million.  The harbor wants to charge $15k to un-load it from the drone ship.  Is this really a fight that SpaceX wants to have?  Pay the damn fee and move onto more important things.   
Seems like extortionate pricing if it's far higher than everyone else.  If you pay Danegelt, you get more Danes...

(I for one am glad the Danes switched from being Vikings to making the finest toy the world has ever known[1], but that's just me)

<---- which I happen to own a little bit of :)

1 - LEGO, did you really need to ask???
« Last Edit: 06/21/2016 06:15 PM by Lar »
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Online llanitedave

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #1218 on: 06/21/2016 09:29 PM »
The value of the 1st stage is what $20-$30 Million.  The harbor wants to charge $15k to un-load it from the drone ship.  Is this really a fight that SpaceX wants to have?  Pay the damn fee and move onto more important things.   
Seems like extortionate pricing if it's far higher than everyone else.  If you pay Danegelt, you get more Danes...

(I for one am glad the Danes switched from being Vikings to making the finest toy the world has ever known[1], but that's just me)

<---- which I happen to own a little bit of :)

1 - LEGO, did you really need to ask???

It wasn't so much a switch as an add-on.

"I've just abducted an alien -- now what?"

Offline starsilk

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #1219 on: 06/21/2016 09:50 PM »
perhaps this will accelerate the plans to refuel and fly the stage back from the barge to land.
Because it would be a LOT CHEAPER to fly it back to land than $15k.

Uh, no, wait......

fuel is cheap.

and the scales just got tipped $15K towards fly-back, which they already wanted to do anyway (speed, less exposure to salt water, weather damage, etc).

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