Author Topic: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3  (Read 792699 times)

Offline OxCartMark

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #740 on: 04/29/2016 02:06 PM »
Anyway, I sincerely hope that this will bring back this thread to the quality of the old one. Since resetting, this thread has become way worse than the old one. First time I see that happening on this forum, usually its the other way around.

I think the phenomenon you have seen is not related to this being thread 3 but rather that it coincided with the hugely successful thread chronicling the triumphant return to port.  That thread created some new ASDS fans or at least turned some new people onto this thread.  So now here we have not only the crusty old ASDS watchers that have seen every posting of every bit of ASDS news from beginning to end and can tell you the polar moment of inertia of the ASDS to within 1%, but also a fair portion of new blood who don't know it in that detail.  Some questions that have been answered will get re-asked.  It would be nice if we had a "what is known & resources" page to help out newer ASDS groupies.

Offline IntoTheVoid

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #741 on: 04/29/2016 02:11 PM »
Is that a tug backing up to OCISLY on http://www.portcanaveralwebcam.com/

Offline John Alan

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #742 on: 04/29/2016 02:24 PM »
Divide by 10!  The barge itself is not a complicated build and therefore not a very high cost. Doesn't have a powerplant, rudders or anything fancy.

Not sure about the cost of the add-ons.

Ok... so I am way off... lets say $3 mil for the hull with enclosed wings and thruster mounts... WAG
The rest... to own... $1+ mil... maybe $2 mil...
So $5 million (all in) to own an OCISLY clone...???

If so... catch one stage and bring it back... it's paid for...  :o

Offline Doesitfloat

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #743 on: 04/29/2016 02:27 PM »
I have a spreadsheet for quick cost estimate.
Came up with 11 million.  If it was built in a shipyard.  McDonough Marine is not a shipyard so they will probably be cheaper.
In addition the cost of steel is currently at very low price. I gave $100 ton but it has fluctuated between 500-50 per ton since 2013.

Offline cscott

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #744 on: 04/29/2016 02:30 PM »
Way back in the ancient history of this thread we had links to the various sites where barges are listed for purchase or lease.  That would probably be a reasonable way to estimate value/cost.

Offline John Alan

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #745 on: 04/29/2016 02:36 PM »
I have a spreadsheet for quick cost estimate.
Came up with 11 million.  If it was built in a shipyard.  McDonough Marine is not a shipyard so they will probably be cheaper.
In addition the cost of steel is currently at very low price. I gave $100 ton but it has fluctuated between 500-50 per ton since 2013.

Ok... lets say $10 mil for the hull... and $5 mil for all the rest... $15 mil all in to own a clone...
Still in the... catch one and it's paid for range...  :o

Offline KSHavre

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #746 on: 04/29/2016 02:39 PM »
As I mentioned earlier, usually we have a static fire schedule (even if only in L2) before the ASDS leaves port.

There is one scheduled in L2. Don't know why it's not also on the public side.

I do not want to break L2 rules. So I will say, no need to watch the webcam today, but hang in there!

Offline Chris Bergin

Yeah, was going to be tomorrow, but more likely Sunday or Monday (we're waiting for an updated schedule).

Anyhoo....barges. ;D

Offline Lar

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #748 on: 04/29/2016 03:31 PM »
Yeah, was going to be tomorrow, but more likely Sunday or Monday (we're waiting for an updated schedule).

Anyhoo....barges. ;D
ASDSssss (stamps foot!)

Seems to me that with the current slump in shipping, now is a good time to be negotiating long term leases or even new construction (or a lease of new construction that is purpose built)
"I think it would be great to be born on Earth and to die on Mars. Just hopefully not at the point of impact." -Elon Musk
"We're a little bit like the dog who caught the bus" - Musk after CRS-8 S1 successfully landed on ASDS OCISLY

Offline John Alan

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #749 on: 04/29/2016 05:58 PM »
My opinion...  ;)
I'm starting to think "Semi trucks and trailers" to use an analogy...

ASDS's are the trailers... cheap (relatively) and can be spread around and left idle unmanned...
Tugs and Go boats... they are the costly items... Semi tractors and the crews to man them...

Build more Trailers (ASDS's) and spread them around to add capacity...
Have enough Tractors (Tugs / Go boats) to tend to active trailers to fit the pace...

Active ASDS's are really only active when they catch a stage at sea... other wise they are only in transit or being loaded/unloaded... (or sitting idle)

Go boats... really a little bigger boat that can stay at sea a while and tow a ASDS in a pinch would be ideal...
Same idea, same uses... just enough balls and fuel to also act as ASDS tugboat when the need is there...
Also... can stay out 30+ days and the crew have a comfortable stay while out on duty...

Tugs... hired help... I would not own tugs... but I would hire the best and use them to shuttle ASDS's in and out of ports...

I hope you see where this is going... this idea...
Tug#1 and ASDS#1 leaves port and slowly heads to drop zone...
Go+ boat goes on duty and catches up at sea with pair at the drop zone...
Go+ takes the ASDS in tow/control and Tug returns to port bareback
Go+ and ASDS separate on time and catches S1... secures and make ready to travel...
Tug#2 comes out towing ASDS#2 and they swap loads in tow...
Tug#2 brings S1 into port... Go+ takes ASDS#2 to next drop zone and repeats process...

Anyway... cost wise, this idea seems to make the most sense if things get real busy downrange...  ;)

On edit...
Go+ equals purpose made ship with helipad, a modest crane, deck storage, towing winches...
Purpose is an 'at sea' mother ship 'tender' to watch over and herd up to three ASDS+ barges at once within a 10 mile radius...
Has on board amenities to support a crew for up to 45 days on duty (max) on station...
Can tow a ASDS+ at modest speeds as needed...

ASDS+ equals new build unmanned normally drone ship with better integrated and larger thrusters and much more fuel capacity built into the hull...
Needs to be new build, purpose built, yet low cost, durable, easy to fix if crashed into, and normally unmanned...
Designed to be towed for distance moves... yet can station keep under Go+ control for days if need be...
Maybe can even follow along behind/beside the Go+ in open seas to move a grouping to a new drop zone...

Tugs equals hired 50+ton bollard pull ships to shuttle ASDS+ ships out to Go+ and back to port as needed..

Speed is not the concern... process constraint is overcome with numbers inbound and outbound...

With the above... you could scale up to a crazy fast launch cadence with a two Go+ ship fleet and a small herd of ASDS+ ships...

later edit... spelling...
« Last Edit: 04/29/2016 08:57 PM by John Alan »

Offline Jim

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #750 on: 04/29/2016 10:54 PM »
The tug and support boats were milling about in the harbor and then redocked
« Last Edit: 04/29/2016 10:56 PM by Jim »

Offline Jim

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #751 on: 04/29/2016 10:57 PM »

Offline CJ

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #752 on: 04/30/2016 01:05 AM »
From the CRS-8 update thread;
Wow - SpaceX just tweeted a 360 degree video of the stage landing on OCISLY. You have to view it on YouTube, but if viewed with smartphone you can move your phone around to adjust viewing angle...



it looks to me as if the F9 was moving upwind on approach. I wonder if this is coincidence, or a planned act? If the latter, it implies that the F9 guidance system can be updated just prior to launch in order to optimize for wind direction (whatever wind direction the ASDS or support ship are reporting near launch). 

Offline Zed_Noir

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #753 on: 04/30/2016 01:28 AM »
From the CRS-8 update thread;

it looks to me as if the F9 was moving upwind on approach. I wonder if this is coincidence, or a planned act? If the latter, it implies that the F9 guidance system can be updated just prior to launch in order to optimize for wind direction (whatever wind direction the ASDS or support ship are reporting near launch).
Musk said in the post-launch presser that the F9 was leaning into the wind. So maybe the ASDS was broadcasting real-time weather data.

Offline Johnnyhinbos

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #754 on: 04/30/2016 02:11 AM »
Has anyone seen a recent AIS position report for Elsbeth III? My MarineTraffic feed says her AIS was last updated 17 days ago. So either the app/data feed is wonky (though other ships like Go Quest have current position report updates), or her AIS transponder is turned off...
« Last Edit: 04/30/2016 02:11 AM by Johnnyhinbos »
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Offline mme

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #755 on: 04/30/2016 02:15 AM »
From the CRS-8 update thread;

it looks to me as if the F9 was moving upwind on approach. I wonder if this is coincidence, or a planned act? If the latter, it implies that the F9 guidance system can be updated just prior to launch in order to optimize for wind direction (whatever wind direction the ASDS or support ship are reporting near launch).
Musk said in the post-launch presser that the F9 was leaning into the wind. So maybe the ASDS was broadcasting real-time weather data.
I don't know if it was upwind but I don't think that implies that the rocket required any external information prior to launch nor from external sources to know which way the wind is blowing.

The F9 knows it's orientation.  It knows its instantaneous position.  It knows the actions it is taking to target it's intended goal.  My guess is if SpaceX tries to adjust for wind in any sort of predictive way, then the first pass at doing so will be using information that the rocket can derive in realtime.

Like Bob Dylan said, you don't have to be a weatherman to know which way the wind is blowing. :)
Space is not Highlander.  There can, and will, be more than one.

Offline Tuts36

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #756 on: 04/30/2016 03:15 AM »
From Elon Musk's twitter:

Quote

Phil Jackson ‏@phillipcjackson 5h5 hours ago Maryland, USA

[email protected] once it lands on the drone ship how do you secure it so it doesn't tip over? #SpaceX #model3reserved
1 retweet 0 likes

Elon Musk Verified account
‏@elonmusk

@phillipcjackson turns out it doesn't need securing


After all those lengthy discussions...!

Offline Kabloona

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #757 on: 04/30/2016 03:39 AM »
From Elon Musk's twitter:

Quote

Phil Jackson ‏@phillipcjackson 5h5 hours ago Maryland, USA

[email protected] once it lands on the drone ship how do you secure it so it doesn't tip over? #SpaceX #model3reserved
1 retweet 0 likes

Elon Musk Verified account
‏@elonmusk

@phillipcjackson turns out it doesn't need securing


After all those lengthy discussions...!

Well, let's point out the obvious: the CRS-8 stage *was* in fact secured to OCISLY, but probably to prevent sliding around on deck (and guard against leg collapse) rather than "tipping over," which many of us here argued was never a real concern due to low CG. Good to hear Elon agrees with us.  ;)
« Last Edit: 04/30/2016 09:11 AM by Kabloona »

Offline Kabloona

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #758 on: 04/30/2016 03:44 AM »
Has anyone seen a recent AIS position report for Elsbeth III? My MarineTraffic feed says her AIS was last updated 17 days ago. So either the app/data feed is wonky (though other ships like Go Quest have current position report updates), or her AIS transponder is turned off...

Probably just turned off while she's idle. We've seen her go dark in the past.

Offline tadaniels

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #759 on: 04/30/2016 05:41 AM »
Isn't that Elsbeth III moored outboard of the GO twins in Jim's post #751?

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