Author Topic: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3  (Read 603566 times)

Offline catdlr

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #620 on: 04/23/2016 09:40 AM »

All SpaceX needs to do is to get Stark Industries to build them THIS so they can fly to an Equatorial launch site, launch the Falcon, then do a mid-air "catch" of the booster on the deck, and fly back.

Who needs "Sea Launch" and Elsbeth III when you can do Air Launch and Air Catch, anywhere,  with "Of Course I Still Have Not Just Read The Instructions"?   

Wee bit of an issue with the theoretical cost, and even more than just a bit of an issue with reality.....   :)


Sounds like you really want...

http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=39944.0

A large floating airship could be beneficial. Not only could the airship act as a landing pad, but it could later even act as a launch pad, perhaps allowing rockets to be launched from upto 20 miles above sea level.

in addition, here are some concepts developed from Phillip Bono: 
https://www.flickr.com/photos/sdasmarchives/26415430231/in/album-72157666706198030/

https://www.flickr.com/photos/sdasmarchives/26481550175/in/album-72157666706198030/

https://www.flickr.com/photos/sdasmarchives/26389227292/in/album-72157666706198030/
Tony De La Rosa

Offline OxCartMark

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #621 on: 04/23/2016 12:55 PM »
Meanwhile, how are things in the port of LA / Long Beach?

Members of the ASDS nation should be scanning the shores around Amelia and Morgan City La. for the possible construction of additional ASDS(s) now that there is proof that the concept works.  Where are the Marmacs?

Offline Kabloona

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #622 on: 04/23/2016 01:57 PM »
Meanwhile, how are things in the port of LA / Long Beach?

Members of the ASDS nation should be scanning the shores around Amelia and Morgan City La. for the possible construction of additional ASDS(s) now that there is proof that the concept works.  Where are the Marmacs?

Why? They have one for each launch site, and Boca Chica won't be ready for years.

Online speedevil

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #623 on: 04/23/2016 01:59 PM »
The thing about well-tuned control loops is: you don't need perfect information about the environment.  It's magic

"The thing about well-tuned control loops with adequate control authority".

Over the last several seconds, many things get lots harder, probably to the point that there is not as much control authority as you'd like.
This is for several reasons:
Speed is dropping off sharply, meaning that body 'lift' and grid fins become less useful.
The body has to be approximately vertical as it hits the deck.

At the last second or two, there isn't enough time to counteract unexpected gusts fully, all you can do is to hit vertically.

Offline cscott

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #624 on: 04/23/2016 02:31 PM »
The thing about well-tuned control loops is: you don't need perfect information about the environment.  It's magic

"The thing about well-tuned control loops with adequate control authority".

Over the last several seconds, many things get lots harder, probably to the point that there is not as much control authority as you'd like.
This is for several reasons:
Speed is dropping off sharply, meaning that body 'lift' and grid fins become less useful.
The body has to be approximately vertical as it hits the deck.

At the last second or two, there isn't enough time to counteract unexpected gusts fully, all you can do is to hit vertically.
Naw, I don't believe it.  In the last seconds they have a Merlin firing at half thrust and a near-empty stage.  If anything there too much control authority.

Grid fins and body lift are for high altitude aiming.  If you said they needed to have better environment modeling of high altitude winds, I'd be on board.  At that stage of flight small improvements could indeed be compounded into significant savings.
« Last Edit: 04/23/2016 02:37 PM by cscott »

Offline cscott

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #625 on: 04/23/2016 02:35 PM »
Meanwhile, how are things in the port of LA / Long Beach?

Members of the ASDS nation should be scanning the shores around Amelia and Morgan City La. for the possible construction of additional ASDS(s) now that there is proof that the concept works.  Where are the Marmacs?

Why? They have one for each launch site, and Boca Chica won't be ready for years.
I think the thinking is that they will eventually need two more ASDSes for downrange recovery of Falcon Heavy side cores and/or another ASDS for missions at a fast cadence without enough time for a single ASDS to return to port and redeploy.

I don't buy it, necessarily (at least not in the near term).  But it would be good to have antennae in the air just in case MARMAC 300 (say) disappears suddenly after finishing its wind turbine job.
« Last Edit: 04/23/2016 03:43 PM by cscott »

Offline Kabloona

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #626 on: 04/23/2016 03:03 PM »
Quote
I don't buy it, necessarily.  But it would be good to have antennae in the air just in case MARMAC 300 (say) disappears suddenly after finishing its wind turbine job.

Will check with my source and see if he's heard anything.

Offline Kabloona

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #627 on: 04/23/2016 03:38 PM »
The thing about well-tuned control loops is: you don't need perfect information about the environment.  It's magic

"The thing about well-tuned control loops with adequate control authority".

Over the last several seconds, many things get lots harder, probably to the point that there is not as much control authority as you'd like.
This is for several reasons:
Speed is dropping off sharply, meaning that body 'lift' and grid fins become less useful.
The body has to be approximately vertical as it hits the deck.

At the last second or two, there isn't enough time to counteract unexpected gusts fully, all you can do is to hit vertically.

This quote from Jeff Bezos about how their autpoilot works is relevant:

Quote
One of the software improvements related to the landing approach.

“Rather than the vehicle translating to land at the exact center of the pad, it now initially targets the center, but then sets down at a position of convenience on the pad, prioritizing vehicle attitude ahead of precise lateral positioning,” added Mr. Bezos.

"It’s like a pilot lining up a plane with the centerline of the runway. If the plane is a few feet off center as you get close, you don’t swerve at the last minute to ensure hitting the exact mid-point. You just land a few feet left or right of the centerline.


https://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2016/01/blue-origin-successful-reuse-test-new-shepard/

Which is exactly what we saw on the CRS-8 landing. In the last few seconds the stage righted itself and did not try to correct for being a few meters off target.
« Last Edit: 04/23/2016 03:42 PM by Kabloona »

Offline John Alan

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #628 on: 04/23/2016 06:27 PM »
Well I see this thread took a hard turn into the weeds...   ???

On topic... a question or two...  ;)
They get OCISLY cleaned up and ready to go catch another stage?
I have not seen any pics of her since they left the I-beams tack welded to the deck...

When will EIII be headed out again with OCISLY in tow to catch the next one?
I see the dates slipped a bit... but this is coming up sooner then later...

Next launch in 10 days or so by my count...
SO... Headed out in less then a week... going where?... how far?...  :-\
 :)
« Last Edit: 04/23/2016 06:42 PM by John Alan »

Offline Kabloona

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #629 on: 04/25/2016 11:47 AM »
Quote
SO... Headed out in less then a week... going where?... how far?... 

This appears to be the FCC transmitter permit for the ships on the JCSAT-14 mission. The permits are a bit tricky to decipher because they don't specify the mission, only a 6-month range of operations dates. But the permit previous to this one appeared to be for the CRS-8 ASDS location. So I think this one is for JCSAT-14. The ASDS location appear to be consistent with a low launch azimuth for GTO.

https://apps.fcc.gov/oetcf/els/reports/STA_Print.cfm?mode=current&application_seq=69736&RequestTimeout=1000

ASDS coordinates:

28 11 30 N
73 50 15 W

(Degrees-minutes-seconds)

That is 409 statute miles from the launch site, and within a few miles of the SES-9 location. So this mission will be almost identical to the SES-9 recovery profile.
« Last Edit: 04/25/2016 01:11 PM by Kabloona »

Offline cscott

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #630 on: 04/25/2016 01:14 PM »
Whoo-hoo, another exciting recovery then!

Offline rpapo

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #631 on: 04/25/2016 01:19 PM »
That is 409 statute miles from the launch site, and within a few miles of the SES-9 location. So this mission will be almost identical to the SES-9 recovery profile.
Then shouldn't the ASDS be heading out soon?
An Apollo fanboy . . . fifty years ago.

Offline Kabloona

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #632 on: 04/25/2016 01:29 PM »
That is 409 statute miles from the launch site, and within a few miles of the SES-9 location. So this mission will be almost identical to the SES-9 recovery profile.
Then shouldn't the ASDS be heading out soon?

For SES-9 they left almost exactly 5 days before the launch window opened. So if the 3 May launch date holds, OCISLY would probably leave this Thursday, 4/28.

Update: now NET 4 May, so Friday departure at earliest...
« Last Edit: 04/25/2016 09:25 PM by Kabloona »

Online Lar

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #633 on: 04/25/2016 01:59 PM »
Whoo-hoo, another exciting recovery then!
That doesn't follow. It's possible that they're going to do a ballistic reentry but not use the super max gonzo 3 engine landing option...  see this speculation on performance margins.

http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=33778.msg1516813#msg1516813

JCSat isn't as heavy and they aren't trying to do quite as aggressive of a GTO orbit (is the thinking)
"I think it would be great to be born on Earth and to die on Mars. Just hopefully not at the point of impact." -Elon Musk
"We're a little bit like the dog who caught the bus" - Musk after CRS-8 S1 successfully landed on ASDS OCISLY

Offline Kabloona

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #634 on: 04/25/2016 02:22 PM »
Meanwhile, how are things in the port of LA / Long Beach?

Members of the ASDS nation should be scanning the shores around Amelia and Morgan City La. for the possible construction of additional ASDS(s) now that there is proof that the concept works.  Where are the Marmacs?

My source at McDonough Marine says all their big barges are rented out and he hasn't heard or seen anything locally to suggest SpaceX is expanding their ASDS fleet. If they did, it would have to be with a different company, elsewhere.

PS...the original ASDS, Marmac 300, is done with wind farm construction duty and is being repaired/refit for its next job.
« Last Edit: 04/25/2016 03:40 PM by Kabloona »

Online Lar

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #635 on: 04/25/2016 04:29 PM »
Meanwhile, how are things in the port of LA / Long Beach?

Members of the ASDS nation should be scanning the shores around Amelia and Morgan City La. for the possible construction of additional ASDS(s) now that there is proof that the concept works.  Where are the Marmacs?

My source at McDonough Marine says all their big barges are rented out and he hasn't heard or seen anything locally to suggest SpaceX is expanding their ASDS fleet. If they did, it would have to be with a different company, elsewhere.

PS...the original ASDS, Marmac 300, is done with wind farm construction duty and is being repaired/refit for its next job.

Interesting... What is the lead time for new construction of this class of barge? And if new construction were commissioned, would it be this class or would SpaceX start applying learnings (integrated shielding instead of tacked on.. special thruster housings, etc... there are dozens of things one COULD do...)? It's possible it's too early to start customizing much, so by going for another Marmac 300 class, the barge could be returned to the lessor more easily...
« Last Edit: 04/25/2016 04:30 PM by Lar »
"I think it would be great to be born on Earth and to die on Mars. Just hopefully not at the point of impact." -Elon Musk
"We're a little bit like the dog who caught the bus" - Musk after CRS-8 S1 successfully landed on ASDS OCISLY

Offline CraigLieb

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #636 on: 04/25/2016 04:32 PM »
Landing poll available for JCSat-14
(or given this forum... the anti-ASDS missile system if you prefer...)

http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=40146.0
« Last Edit: 04/25/2016 04:32 PM by CraigLieb »
Colonize Mars!

Offline starhawk92

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #637 on: 04/25/2016 05:18 PM »
Meanwhile, how are things in the port of LA / Long Beach?

Members of the ASDS nation should be scanning the shores around Amelia and Morgan City La. for the possible construction of additional ASDS(s) now that there is proof that the concept works.  Where are the Marmacs?

Why? They have one for each launch site, and Boca Chica won't be ready for years.
I think the thinking is that they will eventually need two more ASDSes for downrange recovery of Falcon Heavy side cores and/or another ASDS for missions at a fast cadence without enough time for a single ASDS to return to port and redeploy.

I don't buy it, necessarily (at least not in the near term).  But it would be good to have antennae in the air just in case MARMAC 300 (say) disappears suddenly after finishing its wind turbine job.

"We're gonna need a bigger boat . . . . . "

Offline cscott

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #638 on: 04/25/2016 08:01 PM »
Whoo-hoo, another exciting recovery then!
That doesn't follow. It's possible that they're going to do a ballistic reentry but not use the super max gonzo 3 engine landing option... 
By "exciting" I mean, "not yet successful".  ASDS landing after GTO mission has not yet been successfully demonstrated.


PS...the original ASDS, Marmac 300, is done with wind farm construction duty and is being repaired/refit for its next job.

And does its next job require adding wings?

« Last Edit: 04/25/2016 08:03 PM by cscott »

Offline Kabloona

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #639 on: 04/25/2016 08:43 PM »


PS...the original ASDS, Marmac 300, is done with wind farm construction duty and is being repaired/refit for its next job.

And does its next job require adding wings?

No, it just got an ABS inspection and is being repaired after a dockside "hit and run" mishap. But no wings in its future.  :(
« Last Edit: 04/25/2016 08:43 PM by Kabloona »

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