Author Topic: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3  (Read 791069 times)

Offline rds100

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #580 on: 04/17/2016 09:26 AM »

What about lifting the stage with a helicopter and transporting it to ground this way? No need to fold the legs.
But they would have to find a way to install that load bearing cap while on the ASDS.

Offline cavok

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #581 on: 04/17/2016 10:18 AM »
no way with a helicopter.
even the biggest (Mi-26) can barely lift 20t. and the stage is more like 25t+ according to what i've picked up here on the boards.

Offline rds100

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #582 on: 04/17/2016 10:35 AM »

Well, Mi-26 is more than 30 years old helicopter. And according to wikipedia it has already been tested to lift 56+ tonnes in 1982.


Offline mme

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #583 on: 04/17/2016 05:38 PM »

What about lifting the stage with a helicopter and transporting it to ground this way? No need to fold the legs.
But they would have to find a way to install that load bearing cap while on the ASDS.
I'm not understanding the benefit.  They eventually have to fold the legs, they can't integrate or launch with the legs deployed.  And a crane has to be cheaper to operate than a helicopter.
Space is not Highlander.  There can, and will, be more than one.

Offline cavok

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #584 on: 04/17/2016 06:13 PM »

Well, Mi-26 is more than 30 years old helicopter. And according to wikipedia it has already been tested to lift 56+ tonnes in 1982.

Well, that record is for total mass uplift for a helicopter,  including its own weight/mass and certainly leaves no room for maneuvering! Considering the gearbox itself weighs almost 4t!
And so the design may be 30 years old, it's still going to be the biggest chopper. And probably will remain as it's kind of in an An-225/An-124 niche...

Offline rds100

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #585 on: 04/17/2016 06:52 PM »

What about lifting the stage with a helicopter and transporting it to ground this way? No need to fold the legs.
But they would have to find a way to install that load bearing cap while on the ASDS.
I'm not understanding the benefit.  They eventually have to fold the legs, they can't integrate or launch with the legs deployed.  And a crane has to be cheaper to operate than a helicopter.

The benefit would be not having to wait 3 days for the ASDS to arrive at the predetermined point at sea, then not having to wait 3 days for it to return to shore.

Stage lands on ASDS, a helicopter comes to pick it up and bring it to shore. This happens with the legs unfolded - they will be folded during the processing that would be done on shore. The ASDS stays at sea, waiting for the next launch / stage.



Offline launchwatcher

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #586 on: 04/17/2016 06:59 PM »

Well, Mi-26 is more than 30 years old helicopter. And according to wikipedia it has already been tested to lift 56+ tonnes in 1982.

Well, that record is for total mass uplift for a helicopter,  including its own weight/mass and certainly leaves no room for maneuvering! Considering the gearbox itself weighs almost 4t!
And so the design may be 30 years old, it's still going to be the biggest chopper. And probably will remain as it's kind of in an An-225/An-124 niche...
Well, there was also the Mil V-12, which was more or less a 2xMi-6.   Its intended niche was shuttling ICBMs around the Soviet Union - not all that different from what SpaceX needs.   Two prototypes were built but then the Soviets changed their minds about the flying ICBM thing and cancelled the program.

Offline CyndyC

I think the other carrier is the John F Kennedy (CV-67); I don't think SpaceX has a shot at that one.

Are you saying that with it in mind that JFK was the president who got us to the moon? SpaceX would be ideal to inherit the legacy. A new JFK carrier is under construction, but SpaceX would do fine giving the old one a fitting and interesting new name I'm sure.
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Offline llanitedave

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #588 on: 04/17/2016 08:36 PM »
The Navy retired the JFK because it was the most expensive carrier in the fleet to operate.  That wouldn't be too helpful for SpaceX.


Granted, they wouldn't have to maintain the catapults or the weapons systems, but still...
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Offline cscott

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #589 on: 04/17/2016 09:31 PM »
Please go back and re read the previous discussion we had about lifting rockets with helicopters.  It's like groundhog day around here sometimes.

Offline CameronD

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #590 on: 04/17/2016 11:08 PM »
I have an idea which should fit the bill!  She's an oldie but a beauty!!
http://www.nimitz.navy.mil/

Of course you were kidding with the Nimitz still in service (your current or former ship I take it), but your post brought to mind the USS Saratoga (CV-60 Supercarrier). Too bad SpaceX didn't grab it before it was sold for scrap for one penny just 2 years ago, after sitting mothballed for 20 years. It went to be dismantled in of all places, Brownsville Texas, the future site of new SpaceX launch facilities.

Edit: The article from 2014 did say the Saratoga was the 2nd of 3 carriers planned for scrap, but they didn't name the 3rd, so it might still be around.
There are two full sized aircraft carriers in process of decommissioning right now at Newport News, Virginia.  One of them is the USS Enterprise.  I don't know offhand which is the other one.

Look here.  I believe the one on the south is the USS Enterprise.

I think the other carrier is the John F Kennedy (CV-67); I don't think SpaceX has a shot at that one.

SpaceX don't have a shot at any of them.  Ignoring the (non-trivial) extremely limited berthing opportunities for a sec, can you imagine what it would cost to berth, crew and operate something like that??  As mentioned countless times before on this thread, there are other classes of vessel far better suited so it simply isn't going to happen.

Move along, nothing to see here..  :)
With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine - however, this is not necessarily a good idea. It is hard to be sure where they are
going to land, and it could be dangerous sitting under them as they fly overhead.

Offline OxCartMark

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #591 on: 04/18/2016 02:00 AM »
How's about we (allow me some slack with the "we" here please) start the tradition of painting F9 outline symbols on the blast wall near the clover leaf for each of the successful returns?
« Last Edit: 04/18/2016 02:08 AM by OxCartMark »

Offline Avron

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #592 on: 04/18/2016 02:08 AM »
F9dev flew this way

It was launched from a stand

launches need a pad/stand, legs are not an option unless you use Grasshopper type legs . Flyback under own power, is a very log ways off, easier to turn horizontal and ship back on a ship, vs barge

Offline CameronD

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #593 on: 04/18/2016 03:25 AM »
Moved from the other thread, 'cause it seemed more relevant here:

1. Here's a great shot of an engine-driven pump for draining the ballast tanks - plus an open inspection hatch for the hose.

2. They've added Plimsoll marks to the side of the wings.  That load limit line doesn't leave them very much freeboard, so they must be planning to carry significantly more load/ballast than just an empty stage!

With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine - however, this is not necessarily a good idea. It is hard to be sure where they are
going to land, and it could be dangerous sitting under them as they fly overhead.

Offline maximlevitsky

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #594 on: 04/18/2016 07:53 AM »
That Plimsoll mark was always there.
This reminds me to model it in my model  :)

Offline CameronD

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #595 on: 04/18/2016 07:59 AM »
That Plimsoll mark was always there.
This reminds me to model it in my model  :)

I've checked back and you're quite correct.  Not sure how I didn't notice it before - perhaps because it wasn't in that position on the good 'ol JRtI, I didn't think to look for it on the wings.
With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine - however, this is not necessarily a good idea. It is hard to be sure where they are
going to land, and it could be dangerous sitting under them as they fly overhead.

Offline launchwatcher

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #596 on: 04/18/2016 02:42 PM »
2. They've added Plimsoll marks to the side of the wings.  That load limit line doesn't leave them very much freeboard, so they must be planning to carry significantly more load/ballast than just an empty stage!

I'm a little surprised by how high they are but I get the impression that they're positioned based entirely on the vessel's geometry and have nothing to do with the intended use of the owner.    So it's more how much they *could* carry than how much they intend to carry.

Offline CameronD

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #597 on: 04/19/2016 02:59 AM »
2. They've added Plimsoll marks to the side of the wings.  That load limit line doesn't leave them very much freeboard, so they must be planning to carry significantly more load/ballast than just an empty stage!

I'm a little surprised by how high they are but I get the impression that they're positioned based entirely on the vessel's geometry and have nothing to do with the intended use of the owner.    So it's more how much they *could* carry than how much they intend to carry.

Right.  Still, if it was me standing at the rail with the ASDS down to her lines, I'm sure I'd think she was about to sink..  ;D
With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine - however, this is not necessarily a good idea. It is hard to be sure where they are
going to land, and it could be dangerous sitting under them as they fly overhead.

Offline georgegassaway

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #598 on: 04/19/2016 05:06 AM »

What about lifting the stage with a helicopter and transporting it to ground this way? No need to fold the legs.
But they would have to find a way to install that load bearing cap while on the ASDS.
I'm not understanding the benefit.  They eventually have to fold the legs, they can't integrate or launch with the legs deployed.  And a crane has to be cheaper to operate than a helicopter.
All SpaceX needs to do is to get Stark Industries to build them THIS so they can fly to an Equatorial launch site, launch the Falcon, then do a mid-air "catch" of the booster on the deck, and fly back.

Who needs "Sea Launch" and Elsbeth III when you can do Air Launch and Air Catch, anywhere,  with "Of Course I Still Have Not Just Read The Instructions"?   

Wee bit of an issue with the theoretical cost, and even more than just a bit of an issue with reality.....   :)

« Last Edit: 04/19/2016 05:08 AM by georgegassaway »

Offline Jim

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #599 on: 04/19/2016 02:12 PM »

All SpaceX needs to do is to get Stark Industries to build them THIS so they can fly to an Equatorial launch site, launch the Falcon, then do a mid-air "catch" of the booster on the deck, and fly back.

Who needs "Sea Launch" and Elsbeth III when you can do Air Launch and Air Catch, anywhere,  with "Of Course I Still Have Not Just Read The Instructions"?   

Wee bit of an issue with the theoretical cost, and even more than just a bit of an issue with reality.....   :)


If that could be built, then there is no need for Falcon.  Just use its power system on winged vehicles to go into orbit. In fact, it probably could go into orbit itself.
« Last Edit: 04/19/2016 02:14 PM by Jim »

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