Author Topic: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3  (Read 715219 times)

Offline CraigLieb

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #220 on: 03/23/2016 01:21 PM »
(restricted airspace)
Anyone care to delve into the truthiness of this restricted airspace?  Restricted by FAA?  Restricted by local ordinance? Restricted by port authority (is that possible on mostly non-port side of the waterway?) Restricted only in the minds of the police?

And what are the limits of its restrictedness?  For instance, if you moved another 100' off of that property would it be OK?

I wonder if it was SpaceX that pushed for this?.

By FAA apparently. See this reddit comment:

https://www.reddit.com/r/spacex/comments/4bgxok/asds_ocisly_aerial_video_march_21_2016_pic_in/d197l6p

Quote
There's not "legislation" exactly, which is to say, congress isn't passing laws specifically blocking off each restricted airspace. That's up to the FAA (although based on authority given by congress). R-2932 is the restricted airspace block over Port/Cape Canaveral and is continuously in effect below 5000'. Above 5000' for that same block is R-2933. Then there are a couple larger zones (R-2934 to the west and north and R-2935 that forms a "C" to the N/W/S of all the above) that are enabled as needed. These would apply to everything that flies. You have to get permission from the airspace's controlling authority, which I believe is the space wing there.
Looks like tomorrow R-2933 is active from 0222 to 0417 and again from 1400 to 1800 (times are Zulu). R-2934 is active tomorrow from 0222 to 0417. I recall hearing something about R-2935 rarely being activated (only for manned flight or something like that?).
You can checkout special use airspaces at the FAA website here: https://sua.faa.gov/sua/siteFrame.app
Edit: Oh, right, Orbital is launching at 0315 tonight, so that explains 2933 and 2934 going active from 0222 to 0417.


Time for the longest selfie stick:
http://www.guinnessworldrecords.com/world-records/377096-longest-selfie-stick
« Last Edit: 03/23/2016 01:24 PM by CraigLieb »
Colonize Mars!

Offline OxCartMark

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #221 on: 03/23/2016 07:58 PM »
...rather than doing what-if, why not try to figure out what SpaceX is doing and why and what things they are going to try next.  Some of the best threads on the site are those kind (the barge threads in many cases are like that)

Offline Lar

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #222 on: 03/23/2016 08:55 PM »
quoting me from another thread and you didn't even like that post? ... splutter...

So are they going to make it? Right to left planning, assuming no further CRS8 slips (can't count on those) what does the timeline look like?

When does the ASDS need to leave port? (if we assume worst case distance, a mostly ballistic reentry rather than a boostback)

Given that, when does the ASDS have to have all its seaworthiness paperwork done? How much time is needed for inspections?  before that, for painting? Besides teh major steelwork, what else do we speculate is needed? one thruster repaired? comm gear repaired? Anything else?

Go!
"I think it would be great to be born on Earth and to die on Mars. Just hopefully not at the point of impact." -Elon Musk
"We're a little bit like the dog who caught the bus" - Musk after CRS-8 S1 successfully landed on ASDS OCISLY

Offline Kabloona

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #223 on: 03/23/2016 09:16 PM »
Quote
When does the ASDS need to leave port? (if we assume worst case distance, a mostly ballistic reentry rather than a boostback)

No assumption necessary. FCC transmitter permit gives the expected ASDS position as around 160 nmi off the Cape. At 5 knots, the ASDS can get there in around 32 hours. So they could leave port as late as 2 days prior to launch and still have plenty of time to set up at the LZ.

(For future reference, the expected ASDS position is 30.5N, 78.5W)
« Last Edit: 03/23/2016 09:17 PM by Kabloona »

Offline the_other_Doug

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #224 on: 03/23/2016 10:53 PM »
Quote
When does the ASDS need to leave port? (if we assume worst case distance, a mostly ballistic reentry rather than a boostback)

No assumption necessary. FCC transmitter permit gives the expected ASDS position as around 160 nmi off the Cape. At 5 knots, the ASDS can get there in around 32 hours. So they could leave port as late as 2 days prior to launch and still have plenty of time to set up at the LZ.

(For future reference, the expected ASDS position is 30.5N, 78.5W)

That location anticipates a normal boostback burn and regular single-engine landing burn, as have been executed nearly perfectly on at least a couple of occasions.

I think the CRS flights are within the F9's performance range for RTLS, so an ASDS landing should be well within its envelope.

I doubt there will be any problems getting OCISLY ready for departure in time to support CRS-8.  It looked like they were making good, steady progress as of that drone flight.
-Doug  (With my shield, not yet upon it)

Offline cscott

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #225 on: 03/24/2016 12:22 AM »
Re: the other party of Lar's question: I think we haven't been able to get a good handle on paperwork delays because the paperwork shows up online well after it must have been complete and "on file".  But I wouldn't doubt that they've got a good relationship with the inspectors and can get what they need in good time.  Can anyone do some paperwork sleuthing to put tighter bounds on the paperwork delay?

Offline CameronD

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #226 on: 03/24/2016 12:40 AM »
Re: the other party of Lar's question: I think we haven't been able to get a good handle on paperwork delays because the paperwork shows up online well after it must have been complete and "on file".  But I wouldn't doubt that they've got a good relationship with the inspectors and can get what they need in good time.  Can anyone do some paperwork sleuthing to put tighter bounds on the paperwork delay?

Paperwork delays: In reality, with cost no obstacle, there are none.  They'll arrange for the inspector to come and take a final look once the work is complete and they're sweeping up ready to leave (he may even be checking daily progress already..).  He'll sign-off right then and away they go.  The paperwork gets lodged when the inspector gets around to it - maybe that day or maybe later.. it doesn't matter, just as long as he signs off (and, more importantly, that they fix anything he doesn't like) before they leave the dock.

EDIT:  Final inspection for something like this should take no longer than an hour, excluding a celebratory beer or two dockside. :)  Painting will take a couple of days because there's at least two coats to go on over that primer and it's something the inspector will want to see.
« Last Edit: 03/24/2016 12:46 AM by CameronD »
With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine - however, this is not necessarily a good idea. It is hard to be sure where they are
going to land, and it could be dangerous sitting under them as they fly overhead.

Offline OxCartMark

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #227 on: 03/24/2016 01:53 AM »
Paperwork delays: In reality, with cost no obstacle, there are none.  They'll arrange for the inspector to come and take a final look once the work is complete and they're sweeping up ready to leave (he may even be checking daily progress already..).  He'll sign-off right then and away they go.  The paperwork gets lodged when the inspector gets around to it - maybe that day or maybe later.. it doesn't matter, just as long as he signs off (and, more importantly, that they fix anything he doesn't like) before they leave the dock.

EDIT:  Final inspection for something like this should take no longer than an hour, excluding a celebratory beer or two dockside. :)  Painting will take a couple of days because there's at least two coats to go on over that primer and it's something the inspector will want to see.
Is this inspector a government inspector (Coast Guard or similar) who would have one size fits all / fair to all ways of scheduling visits or is it a private entity such as a naval engineer that will take payment to move the inspection time to the front burner, even if that's 3:15am?  Even with the CG, I'm not meaning to imply anything negative and they are probably as much into what SpaceX has going on as we are.  Well, as close as normal people get to our level of enthusiasm at least.

I think the CRS flights are within the F9's performance range for RTLS...
Odd, but with the recent work I'm now shifted to the point that my first take on your abbreviation "CRS" is "Cold Rolled Steel".

(For future reference, the expected ASDS position is 30.5N, 78.5W)
Here plotted that is.  Its the lower lefter pin, red.  I noticed that the location is rounded to one decimal place so to see what one decimal accuracy does I've plotted another point, a smaller pin intermediate between CRS-8 and CRS-6/7 ASDS positions to show the reasonably assumable distance it might be from the point I've plotted (+0.1 lat, -0.1lon).

Offline OxCartMark

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #228 on: 03/24/2016 02:00 AM »
Curiositization-

There are quite a few radars around a port including I assume the CG, and whoever runs the port.  These radars don't rely on transponders, they are old school primary radar.  How evident would a drone be on that radar?  Probably not much since a drone has little in the may of area or reflective materials and marine radar doesn't care about vertical motion or even speed (?).  So that's not how the police were brought in so quickly to harsh the drone is it?

Offline CyndyC

Paperwork delays: In reality, with cost no obstacle, there are none.  They'll arrange for the inspector to come and take a final look once the work is complete and they're sweeping up ready to leave (he may even be checking daily progress already..).  He'll sign-off right then and away they go.  The paperwork gets lodged when the inspector gets around to it - maybe that day or maybe later.. it doesn't matter, just as long as he signs off (and, more importantly, that they fix anything he doesn't like) before they leave the dock.

I would be surprised if anyone can pay an official agency for faster service, and in fact that might be illegal (I see OxCartMark just alluded to that before I did). I'd also be surprised if multiple inspections aren't required to coincide with the various stages of repair. I acted as contractor for a bathroom remodel in my own home, which can be done w/o a license, and multiple interim inspections were required for such as plumbing, floor structure, electric, and fireproofing. I paid a one time charge based on the estimated cost of construction, and that included all inspections. I don't recall having to wait long for an inspection before the construction could continue, but it was around Christmas when a lot of people are sitting out construction.

Quote
EDIT:  Final inspection for something like this should take no longer than an hour, excluding a celebratory beer or two dockside. :)  Painting will take a couple of days because there's at least two coats to go on over that primer and it's something the inspector will want to see.

My final was definitely brief, and even allowed me to fudge a bit (by allowing me to keep a two handle shower fixture instead of the coded single handle), the inspector said, "Because it's Christmas," haha. I don't recall drinking any beer afterwards though. Another surprise will be if an inspection of the paint is required. Really?? That seems a bit extreme. Home construction does not even require inspection of tile installations.

Edit: I will say this about the paint though. Some paint requires 48-72 hours dry time between coats, and my guess would be the tough kind of paint required on seagoing vessels would fall into that category. Also, the glazing putty that goes around window glass to waterproof windows before painting is technically supposed to be allowed to dry for a couple of weeks before painting. The people I hired painted over it the same week and now a lot of it is falling off. I imagine there's plenty of waterproofing substance(s) required for this vessel.
« Last Edit: 03/24/2016 02:50 AM by CyndyC »
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Offline Kabloona

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #230 on: 03/24/2016 02:22 AM »
Curiositization-

There are quite a few radars around a port including I assume the CG, and whoever runs the port.  These radars don't rely on transponders, they are old school primary radar.  How evident would a drone be on that radar?  Probably not much since a drone has little in the may of area or reflective materials and marine radar doesn't care about vertical motion or even speed (?).  So that's not how the police were brought in so quickly to harsh the drone is it?

The guy said on Reddit that the cop told him half his time was spent busting people flying drones around the port. So he's probably got his eyes peeled for drones all the time he's on duty.

Online dorkmo

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #231 on: 03/24/2016 03:54 AM »
im not familiar with ship industry but are we sure there is actually a government mandated inspection of repairs? id think theyd only have to satisfy the barge owner?

i can sorta understand that the coast gaurd would have an interest in knowning that things arnt going to sink but on the other hand this isnt a passenger vessel, worst case scenario is sinks in a shallow spot and gets in the way.

Offline CameronD

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #232 on: 03/24/2016 06:15 AM »
Paperwork delays: In reality, with cost no obstacle, there are none.  They'll arrange for the inspector to come and take a final look once the work is complete and they're sweeping up ready to leave (he may even be checking daily progress already..).  He'll sign-off right then and away they go.  The paperwork gets lodged when the inspector gets around to it - maybe that day or maybe later.. it doesn't matter, just as long as he signs off (and, more importantly, that they fix anything he doesn't like) before they leave the dock.

I would be surprised if anyone can pay an official agency for faster service, and in fact that might be illegal (I see OxCartMark just alluded to that before I did). I'd also be surprised if multiple inspections aren't required to coincide with the various stages of repair. I acted as contractor for a bathroom remodel in my own home, which can be done w/o a license, and multiple interim inspections were required for such as plumbing, floor structure, electric, and fireproofing. I paid a one time charge based on the estimated cost of construction, and that included all inspections. I don't recall having to wait long for an inspection before the construction could continue, but it was around Christmas when a lot of people are sitting out construction.

My apologies - I DID NOT mean to imply an inspector could be paid off!  :o

What I mean by that comment is that, if cost is no obstacle, they (SpX, McD Marine) could afford to pay for an Inspector to stand around all day if that's what they need to do to ensure sign-off happens ASAP.  At the decent hourly rates these guys would be on, most folks can't afford that luxury.


My final was definitely brief, and even allowed me to fudge a bit (by allowing me to keep a two handle shower fixture instead of the coded single handle), the inspector said, "Because it's Christmas," haha. I don't recall drinking any beer afterwards though. Another surprise will be if an inspection of the paint is required. Really?? That seems a bit extreme. Home construction does not even require inspection of tile installations.

Edit: I will say this about the paint though. Some paint requires 48-72 hours dry time between coats, and my guess would be the tough kind of paint required on seagoing vessels would fall into that category. Also, the glazing putty that goes around window glass to waterproof windows before painting is technically supposed to be allowed to dry for a couple of weeks before painting. The people I hired painted over it the same week and now a lot of it is falling off. I imagine there's plenty of waterproofing substance(s) required for this vessel.

There are pages of requirements for coatings in the Barge Rules so I won't bore you with specifics, but yes, generally final coatings must be inspected.  In some cases (eg. salt water ballast tanks) special corrosion resistant hard coatings might be required, but either way, the Inspector needs to check that the paintwork has been properly applied and the new steelwork isn't likely to rust any time soon.  These particular tanks are to be filled with water, remember?

You're right, some marine epoxy paints do require several hours to cure properly - but there's nothing I can think of in this repair that would require weeks..

 
« Last Edit: 03/24/2016 06:31 AM by CameronD »
With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine - however, this is not necessarily a good idea. It is hard to be sure where they are
going to land, and it could be dangerous sitting under them as they fly overhead.

Offline CameronD

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #233 on: 03/24/2016 06:28 AM »
im not familiar with ship industry but are we sure there is actually a government mandated inspection of repairs? id think theyd only have to satisfy the barge owner?

Yes.  No. 

(You guys will be calling me "Barge Jim" soon.. :))
With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine - however, this is not necessarily a good idea. It is hard to be sure where they are
going to land, and it could be dangerous sitting under them as they fly overhead.

Online dorkmo

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #234 on: 03/24/2016 06:46 AM »
im not familiar with ship industry but are we sure there is actually a government mandated inspection of repairs? id think theyd only have to satisfy the barge owner?

Yes.  No. 

(You guys will be calling me "Barge Jim" soon.. :))

could they get around this by using a flag of convenience for the barge?

Offline CameronD

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #235 on: 03/24/2016 07:07 AM »
im not familiar with ship industry but are we sure there is actually a government mandated inspection of repairs? id think theyd only have to satisfy the barge owner?

Yes.  No. 

(You guys will be calling me "Barge Jim" soon.. :))

could they get around this by using a flag of convenience for the barge?

Sometimes.. in some parts of the world, including those due south of you - but last I heard the USCG were cracking down on that sort of thing.

If you're operating regularly out of an American port, it would be mighty difficult to get away with.
With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine - however, this is not necessarily a good idea. It is hard to be sure where they are
going to land, and it could be dangerous sitting under them as they fly overhead.

Online dorkmo

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #236 on: 03/24/2016 07:28 AM »
found something

https://www.federalregister.gov/articles/2011/12/14/2011-32007/seagoing-barges

"In 1993, Congress exempted from inspection seagoing barges that are unmanned and not carrying hazardous material as cargo, or carrying a flammable or combustible liquid, including oil, in bulk."

https://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/USCODE-2014-title46/html/USCODE-2014-title46-subtitleII-partB-chap33-sec3302.htm

"(m) A seagoing barge is not subject to inspection under section 3301(6) of this title if the vessel is unmanned and does not carry—
(1) a hazardous material as cargo; or
(2) a flammable or combustible liquid, including oil, in bulk."

not a lawyer so not sure if this actually covers what it sounds like

Online JamesH65

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #237 on: 03/24/2016 08:20 AM »
found something

https://www.federalregister.gov/articles/2011/12/14/2011-32007/seagoing-barges

"In 1993, Congress exempted from inspection seagoing barges that are unmanned and not carrying hazardous material as cargo, or carrying a flammable or combustible liquid, including oil, in bulk."

https://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/USCODE-2014-title46/html/USCODE-2014-title46-subtitleII-partB-chap33-sec3302.htm

"(m) A seagoing barge is not subject to inspection under section 3301(6) of this title if the vessel is unmanned and does not carry—
(1) a hazardous material as cargo; or
(2) a flammable or combustible liquid, including oil, in bulk."

not a lawyer so not sure if this actually covers what it sounds like

Sounds fair enough. Don't really care if a non-toxic barge sinks through bad maintenance - that's the owners fault. Unless of course it sinks somewhere important and gets in the way.

Makes a nice reef for coral etc. Lot's of tanks and old ships out there already doing that.

Offline woods170

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #238 on: 03/24/2016 08:37 AM »
found something

https://www.federalregister.gov/articles/2011/12/14/2011-32007/seagoing-barges

"In 1993, Congress exempted from inspection seagoing barges that are unmanned and not carrying hazardous material as cargo, or carrying a flammable or combustible liquid, including oil, in bulk."

https://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/USCODE-2014-title46/html/USCODE-2014-title46-subtitleII-partB-chap33-sec3302.htm

"(m) A seagoing barge is not subject to inspection under section 3301(6) of this title if the vessel is unmanned and does not carry—
(1) a hazardous material as cargo; or
(2) a flammable or combustible liquid, including oil, in bulk."

not a lawyer so not sure if this actually covers what it sounds like
In that case, this barge is probably not exempted from inspection. The ASDS carries four substantial containers worth of combustible liquids.

Online Alastor

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #239 on: 03/24/2016 09:23 AM »
Sounds fair enough. Don't really care if a non-toxic barge sinks through bad maintenance - that's the owners fault. Unless of course it sinks somewhere important and gets in the way.

Makes a nice reef for coral etc. Lot's of tanks and old ships out there already doing that.

As a diver, I must say, the opportunity to visit OCISLY underwater while admiring the underwater fauna that might be in the process of taking over it would most definitely both please the aerospace nerd and the diving nerd in me.

Sadly, not likely, though ...  :'(

Maybe  if we ask nicely enough, SpaceX might agree to sink the first barge-landed core along with its barge after having safed it ?
That might make for a very nice diving spot !  ;D

EDIT: Celebratory edit for my 50th post ! :P Well ... not every post can be serious !
« Last Edit: 03/24/2016 09:25 AM by Alastor »

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