Author Topic: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3  (Read 599492 times)

Online guckyfan

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #1880 on: 03/04/2017 06:03 PM »
For a high launch cadence they need a fast turnaround of the ASDS. That needs fast securing of the stage, secure enough for fast towing. Getting the stage off is secondary, they are getting quicker at it already. Also preparing it for transport. That is not on the critical path.

Offline Jim

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #1881 on: 03/04/2017 09:11 PM »
The falcon 9 block 5 used for manned and DOD launches may have to freeze but that doesn't mean that the software and bolt on parts for non-manned and DOD flights would have to be included in a block 5 freeze.


Yes, it does.  Block 5 is not for manned and DOD launches.  It is so Spacex can divert resources from F9 to ITS

Offline DAZ

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #1882 on: 03/05/2017 12:19 AM »
The falcon 9 block 5 used for manned and DOD launches may have to freeze but that doesn't mean that the software and bolt on parts for non-manned and DOD flights would have to be included in a block 5 freeze.


Yes, it does. Block 5 is not for manned and DOD launches. It is so SpaceX can divert resources from F9 to ITS

There can be more than one reason for doing something.

I was replying, to the general trend of the thread, that SpaceX would need to freeze the falcon 9 block 5 in order to meet its contract commitments for DOD and NASAís upcoming manned flights so that would be the reason why SpaceX would stop its experimental landings. I was pointing out that I did not believe that SpaceX would have to stop experimenting just because it froze the falcon 9 at the block 5 state.

I do not believe that I said that SpaceX would continue expending a lot of resources to the type of landing test that was suggested. The block 5 build is just the next progression in the incremental improvements and changes to the falcon 9. It appears it will incorporate all of the changes that both NASA and that DOD will require for their contracts. If this is the case then this would appear to be the logical place to freeze the design. I too believe that SpaceX will be diverting most of its resources to the ITS project.

There are many possible projects that SpaceX could use its resources on but wonít because they donít contribute to SpaceXís core goal of going to Mars. Expending resources to improve their landing performance from feet to inches would not appear to be necessary at this time.

On the other hand on some of the CommX threads, they are talking about the possibility of an unprecedented number of Falcon Heavy launches. CommX is likely the primary way that SpaceX will pay for the ITS project. If this is the case then the possible improvements of a cradle landing system could still be a possibility but not as a test of the ITS system but for the improvements it would give to the falcon 9.

The bottom line is that SpaceX will make the business decisions based on how they support their primary goal of getting to Mars.

Offline Jim

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #1883 on: 03/05/2017 01:25 AM »
It appears it will incorporate all of the changes that both NASA and that DOD will require for their contracts

No, it will incorporate mostly the changes that Spacex requires for an efficient flight rate.  NASA and DOD changes are secondary.

I too believe that SpaceX will be diverting most of its resources to the ITS project.

I wasn't stating a belief.
« Last Edit: 03/05/2017 01:27 AM by Jim »

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Offline DAZ

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #1885 on: 03/05/2017 01:24 PM »
It appears it will incorporate all of the changes that both NASA and that DOD will require for their contracts

No, it will incorporate mostly the changes that Spacex requires for an efficient flight rate.  NASA and DOD changes are secondary.

I too believe that SpaceX will be diverting most of its resources to the ITS project.

I wasn't stating a belief.

Again it can be more than one thing and in this case are not mutually exclusive so it probably is both.

It is just a belief, even for Elon Musk, until it is after-the-fact when it becomes history.

This is becoming just argumentative about mostly semantics so let's just move on.

Offline Jim

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #1886 on: 03/05/2017 05:24 PM »

It is just a belief, even for Elon Musk, until it is after-the-fact when it becomes history.


No, it is his directive.  That is why there is the system of block changes
« Last Edit: 03/05/2017 05:28 PM by Jim »

Offline Space Ghost 1962

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #1887 on: 03/05/2017 05:58 PM »
The point here is to not change the vehicle anymore. To accumulate flight history of the same, to get a baseline.

Need this for many reasons. And we wouldn't be taking about this if F9 development was like Atlas/Vulcan. Not.

Offline meekGee

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #1888 on: 03/05/2017 06:11 PM »
The point here is to not change the vehicle anymore. To accumulate flight history of the same, to get a baseline.

Need this for many reasons. And we wouldn't be taking about this if F9 development was like Atlas/Vulcan. Not.

There's agreement that everyone wants to move on to BFR and BFS, F9B5 will be "it".

What we don't know is what changes will be incorporated into F9B5, and how many of them are "optional".
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Offline Space Ghost 1962

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #1889 on: 03/05/2017 09:41 PM »
The point here is to not change the vehicle anymore. To accumulate flight history of the same, to get a baseline.

Need this for many reasons. And we wouldn't be taking about this if F9 development was like Atlas/Vulcan. Not.

There's agreement that everyone wants to move on to BFR and BFS, F9B5 will be "it".

What we don't know is what changes will be incorporated into F9B5, and how many of them are "optional".
Not needed.

The basic vehicle and its operations stay the same. That's the point. And the success of 5.

So ... how to measure in the public? Mission success, flight history, processing time to reuse, amount of reuse, flight rate. Price point of mission?

Unlike past iterations what you'll see will (hopefully) not change much. Boring. Boring is good.

Offline CameronD

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #1890 on: 03/05/2017 10:16 PM »
For a high launch cadence they need a fast turnaround of the ASDS. That needs fast securing of the stage, secure enough for fast towing. Getting the stage off is secondary, they are getting quicker at it already. Also preparing it for transport. That is not on the critical path.

Unfortunately, you can't beat the laws of physics:  (a) max towing speed will depend upon the sea state at the time, but is never going to be much more than 5 kts in flat water simply by design (b) the tug must stay out of the designated impact zone (10 miles?) until the landed stage has been safed, which is a long way to travel at sea in a tug, even in a hurry and (c) they have a looong way to go to get to port.

One option mooted a couple of threads ago was to not tow it at all:  instead hire/buy one of Dockwise's semi-submersible lift ships to pick the barge and landed stage up at sea and take the whole lot into port at high(er) speed - but it's unclear if adding a few knots to the return speed would really help speed up the process all that much in the overall scheme of things.

ISTM that now they've got the landing accuracy and repeatability down to a few meters, once the launch cadence goes up they'd be better off replacing the ASDSs with a permanently-anchored platform (like an oil production platform) out there both large enough and stable enough to allow at-sea processing and fly-back to launch site. ..and a holiday retreat for Elon and family when not otherwise in use.  They could call it the "Falcon's Nest".. :)
 
« Last Edit: 03/05/2017 11:01 PM by CameronD »
With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine - however, this is not necessarily a good idea. It is hard to be sure where they are
going to land, and it could be dangerous sitting under them as they fly overhead.

Offline meekGee

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #1891 on: 03/06/2017 12:11 AM »
The point here is to not change the vehicle anymore. To accumulate flight history of the same, to get a baseline.

Need this for many reasons. And we wouldn't be taking about this if F9 development was like Atlas/Vulcan. Not.

There's agreement that everyone wants to move on to BFR and BFS, F9B5 will be "it".

What we don't know is what changes will be incorporated into F9B5, and how many of them are "optional".
Not needed.

The basic vehicle and its operations stay the same. That's the point. And the success of 5.

So ... how to measure in the public? Mission success, flight history, processing time to reuse, amount of reuse, flight rate. Price point of mission?

Unlike past iterations what you'll see will (hopefully) not change much. Boring. Boring is good.

Boring means F9 1.0...

Remember that?

I think what we want is "eventually boring", as long as there's something else brewing...
ABCD - Always Be Counting Down

Offline Jcc

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #1892 on: 03/06/2017 12:16 AM »
For a high launch cadence they need a fast turnaround of the ASDS. That needs fast securing of the stage, secure enough for fast towing. Getting the stage off is secondary, they are getting quicker at it already. Also preparing it for transport. That is not on the critical path.

Unfortunately, you can't beat the laws of physics:  (a) max towing speed will depend upon the sea state at the time, but is never going to be much more than 5 kts in flat water simply by design (b) the tug must stay out of the designated impact zone (10 miles?) until the landed stage has been safed, which is a long way to travel at sea in a tug, even in a hurry and (c) they have a looong way to go to get to port.

One option mooted a couple of threads ago was to not tow it at all:  instead hire/buy one of Dockwise's semi-submersible lift ships to pick the barge and landed stage up at sea and take the whole lot into port at high(er) speed - but it's unclear if adding a few knots to the return speed would really help speed up the process all that much in the overall scheme of things.

ISTM that now they've got the landing accuracy and repeatability down to a few meters, once the launch cadence goes up they'd be better off replacing the ASDSs with a permanently-anchored platform (like an oil production platform) out there both large enough and stable enough to allow at-sea processing and fly-back to launch site. ..and a holiday retreat for Elon and family when not otherwise in use.  They could call it the "Falcon's Nest".. :)
 

The problem with a permanently anchored platform is the optimal location to land the stage changes with the particular mission, so there is an advantage to a very mobile platform.

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #1893 on: 03/06/2017 01:30 AM »
...
Boring means F9 1.0...

Remember that?

I think what we want is "eventually boring", as long as there's something else brewing...
HSF, Red Dragon, ITS and CommX are brewing.
Space is not Highlander.  There can, and will, be more than one.

Offline meekGee

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #1894 on: 03/06/2017 01:42 AM »
...
Boring means F9 1.0...

Remember that?

I think what we want is "eventually boring", as long as there's something else brewing...
HSF, Red Dragon, ITS and CommX are brewing.


eeeeeyup!   :)
ABCD - Always Be Counting Down

Offline Jcc

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #1895 on: 03/07/2017 12:14 AM »
...
Boring means F9 1.0...

Remember that?

I think what we want is "eventually boring", as long as there's something else brewing...
HSF, Red Dragon, ITS and CommX are brewing.


eeeeeyup!   :)

Even boring is no longer boring.

Offline oiorionsbelt

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #1896 on: 03/10/2017 05:54 AM »
 The most important takeaway from this and many other threads lately is how often and forcefully Jim has stated SpaceX's intention to start on ITS.
« Last Edit: 03/10/2017 05:55 AM by oiorionsbelt »

Offline CameronD

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #1897 on: 03/10/2017 06:05 AM »
The most important takeaway from this and many other threads lately is how often and forcefully Jim has stated SpaceX's intention to start on ITS.

Uh oh..  ::)
With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine - however, this is not necessarily a good idea. It is hard to be sure where they are
going to land, and it could be dangerous sitting under them as they fly overhead.

Offline speedevil

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #1898 on: 03/10/2017 06:35 AM »
I note with amusement that if you outfit the barge with the same number of raptors as ITS, it can very comfortably fly with nearly a full nominal cargo load.

Offline Wolfram66

The most important takeaway from this and many other threads lately is how often and forcefully Jim has stated SpaceX's intention to start on ITS.

Uh oh..  ::)

#ADSD ATTENTION DEFICIT SQUIRREL DISORDER

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