Author Topic: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3  (Read 783105 times)

Offline meekGee

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #1800 on: 02/26/2017 08:07 PM »
After a look at the pics (Thanks!!!!!!!!), I now agree with those who say something is definitely going on regarding the blast wall and that new space under a container.

I'm dubious that they are making the blast wall open upward though; that would be hard due to the weight of it. My guess is either sliding to the side, or hinged panels opening outward.

My current prime suspect for a resident of the new space is a cherry picker, but that's just a wild guess.

I like the sliding idea.  And I think Musk had enough of the Gull Wing design. :)
(Though FWIW, people who actually use it say it's surprisingly convenient)
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Offline MarekCyzio

My current prime suspect for a resident of the new space is a cherry picker, but that's just a wild guess.

I posted photo of the "resident" in L2 - definitely not cherry picker. Not posting here as SpaceX clearly doesn't want it to be seen in public - at least not yet.

Offline Johnnyhinbos

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #1802 on: 02/26/2017 08:16 PM »
I think those eyes are for installation? May get removed (or left in place for that matter). That section can't slide as there's a piece of steel proud of that wall section on either side of it. Possibly to house hydraulic rams for lifting it up.
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Offline Johnnyhinbos

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #1803 on: 02/26/2017 08:17 PM »
My current prime suspect for a resident of the new space is a cherry picker, but that's just a wild guess.

I posted photo of the "resident" in L2 - definitely not cherry picker. Not posting here as SpaceX clearly doesn't want it to be seen in public - at least not yet.
Lol - you just sold a bunch of subscriptions to L2...
John Hanzl. Author, action / adventure www.johnhanzl.com

Offline MarekCyzio

My current prime suspect for a resident of the new space is a cherry picker, but that's just a wild guess.

I posted photo of the "resident" in L2 - definitely not cherry picker. Not posting here as SpaceX clearly doesn't want it to be seen in public - at least not yet.
Lol - you just sold a bunch of subscriptions to L2...

Full disclosure - I have no financial interest in selling L2 subscriptions :) But if SpaceX doesn't want something to be visible to a point of dropping shipping container to block view, then let's keep audience limited. I'm sure in a couple of weeks SpaceX will roll "Roomba" out to OCISLY and we will see it in full glory.

Offline cscott

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #1805 on: 02/26/2017 10:04 PM »
I like the sliding idea.  And I think Musk had enough of the Gull Wing design. :)
(Though FWIW, people who actually use it say it's surprisingly convenient)
I drive a model X and have two kids and Falcon Wing Doors are indeed marvellous for getting kids in and out of car seats.

The difference between "Falcon Wing" and "Gull Wing" doors is the addition of a second hinge in the middle of the door which lets it lift straight up with very little clearance needed. Great for tight parking lots.

Unnecessary on a barge.

I expect the door will hinge up for the Roomba like a doggie door.
« Last Edit: 02/26/2017 10:05 PM by cscott »

Offline SpaceXfan

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #1806 on: 02/27/2017 12:13 AM »
My current prime suspect for a resident of the new space is a cherry picker, but that's just a wild guess.

I posted photo of the "resident" in L2 - definitely not cherry picker. Not posting here as SpaceX clearly doesn't want it to be seen in public - at least not yet.
Lol - you just sold a bunch of subscriptions to L2...

Great call by Marek and L2 was already amazing, but per his purpsoe the SpaceXers in there can evaluate.

Anyway....

Offline MarekCyzio

The robot needs to fit under nozzles so it cannot be too tall.

Offline dwheeler

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #1808 on: 02/27/2017 01:36 AM »
Well which is more valuable, a cherry picker or the astromech droid under the shamrock?

Offline CJ

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #1809 on: 02/27/2017 03:59 AM »
After a look at the pics (Thanks!!!!!!!!), I now agree with those who say something is definitely going on regarding the blast wall and that new space under a container.

I'm dubious that they are making the blast wall open upward though; that would be hard due to the weight of it. My guess is either sliding to the side, or hinged panels opening outward.

My current prime suspect for a resident of the new space is a cherry picker, but that's just a wild guess.

Not so wild a guess..  we've seen them store one in that general area before, and lose same in an early landing attempt.  They're not cheap (neither are EWP's) so IMHO storage of either, and maybe a welder or four, is most likely.

Personally I'm against the self-welding Roomba/robot idea: The risk of damage to a landed stage should one accidentally collide with the legs is non-trivial, nor is trying to locate itself on a wet, slippery and heaving steel deck.

Regarding opening:  Unless the actually open it around the time someone is talking pics, I guess we'll never know.  Opening outward/upward on hydraulic rams garage-door style was proposed here, but that would place additional height limits on whatever it was you wanted to store, whilst sliding would mean a track/rollers that could potentially get jammed in a big seaway.  All I'm saying is there are disadvantages with both.. but I'm sure we'll find out in due course.

Based on what's been posted (Thanks, Mareck!), and also your comments, I think I'm wrong on the sliding blastwall. It wouldn't be that mechanically difficult to have the blastwall on rollers and raise it that way (basically, rollers in the angled supports). Could be done with hydraulics, or just electric winches. (Unless there are other things needing hydraulics, my guess is the latter).

As for the cherry picker; they've made a sizable garage, so maybe it's not either/or.

Now, for the mystery occupants... hrmmm. I'm still guessing it's some means of securing the F9. I'm also intrigued by the deck plate work they were seen doing in the center. So, seeing as I'm still in wild speculation mode... what if they are connected? Four roomba-ish disks head out and slot themselves onto the legs. They could be remote-operated - they've already got plenty of comms. The disks include a steel plate. Once in place, the wheels retract, lowering the steel plate to the deck. And under the deck is an electromagnet.

Now, to replace the jackstands... a dome-topped robot heads out, positions itself under an engine bell, and raises its dome to fit into an engine bell? (I'm far from sure an engine bell could take the stress).

My guess for motive for all of the above is they would like to secure the F9 before sending crew aboard the ASDS for safety reasons, with an additional motive that doing so robotically could be done faster  than waiting for a crew to arrive (thus potentially saving a precarious f9).

I would further guess that if what they try works, we'll see it at LZ1 soon, too. 

Offline CameronD

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #1810 on: 02/27/2017 05:00 AM »
Now, for the mystery occupants... hrmmm. I'm still guessing it's some means of securing the F9. I'm also intrigued by the deck plate work they were seen doing in the center. So, seeing as I'm still in wild speculation mode... what if they are connected? Four roomba-ish disks head out and slot themselves onto the legs. They could be remote-operated - they've already got plenty of comms. The disks include a steel plate. Once in place, the wheels retract, lowering the steel plate to the deck. And under the deck is an electromagnet.

Now, to replace the jackstands... a dome-topped robot heads out, positions itself under an engine bell, and raises its dome to fit into an engine bell? (I'm far from sure an engine bell could take the stress).

My guess for motive for all of the above is they would like to secure the F9 before sending crew aboard the ASDS for safety reasons, with an additional motive that doing so robotically could be done faster  than waiting for a crew to arrive (thus potentially saving a precarious f9).

I would further guess that if what they try works, we'll see it at LZ1 soon, too.

{emphasis mine} If there was anything under the deck, they'd need a water-tight leg-impact-resistant access hatch and ladder to fix/maintain it, plus confined-space entry permits, etc. etc... No, I'd be very surprised if there was anything under the deck.

Anyways, I still don't get it.  Three reasons:
a) There's been no evidence (that we've seen to date) of a properly-landed-on-all-four-legs stage moving anywhere in the time taken to get the Barge Crew aboard, and
b) the non-zero risk of a moving Roomba colliding with and injuring one of the barge crew is non-zero - especially in a heavy swell... or are the Barge Crew not allowed to board until the Roomba's are secure?  What if one of them can't secure (wet slippery deck, etc.)?? and then
c) The non-zero risk of a Roomba collision with one of the legs affecting the integrity of the landed stage makes the whole concept rather implausible. 

By doing this I'd think you were adding to the dangers the Barge Crew need to deal with.. not making it safer.  Plus, I'm not sure you make the entire process any quicker given that the ASDS will surely be on it's way back to port under it's own steam the moment the stage has landed, whilst the crew/tug catch up, secure and complete the tow - only a couple of knots faster.


EDIT:  Mind you, Elon appears to thrive on implausible.. so I'm sure we'll know soon enough.  But if that's what they have in mind, I'd be asking for double danger-money if I were one of the Barge Crew on the first go. :)
« Last Edit: 02/27/2017 05:08 AM by CameronD »
With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine - however, this is not necessarily a good idea. It is hard to be sure where they are
going to land, and it could be dangerous sitting under them as they fly overhead.

Offline Alastor

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #1811 on: 02/27/2017 09:43 AM »
I'm starting to think that maybe I'll have to revise my position on it being four separated robots.
Based on *Marek's photo a few pots ago, this thing's about as big as a cherry picker ! Could very well go under the bells.

Anyways, I still don't get it.  Three reasons:
a) There's been no evidence (that we've seen to date) of a properly-landed-on-all-four-legs stage moving anywhere in the time taken to get the Barge Crew aboard, and
b) the non-zero risk of a moving Roomba colliding with and injuring one of the barge crew is non-zero - especially in a heavy swell... or are the Barge Crew not allowed to board until the Roomba's are secure?  What if one of them can't secure (wet slippery deck, etc.)?? and then
c) The non-zero risk of a Roomba collision with one of the legs affecting the integrity of the landed stage makes the whole concept rather implausible. 

By doing this I'd think you were adding to the dangers the Barge Crew need to deal with.. not making it safer.  Plus, I'm not sure you make the entire process any quicker given that the ASDS will surely be on it's way back to port under it's own steam the moment the stage has landed, whilst the crew/tug catch up, secure and complete the tow - only a couple of knots faster.

All of the risks you identify are related to crew on the deck at the same time as the robot mooving.
The only benefit in introducing a robot is if it allows you to remotely secure the stage (and thus the robot) before bringing any crew on board.

Now there are the edge cases where you potentially couldn't secure the robot nor bring it back to the garage. I see 2 possibilities :
 - You identify the usability limits of the robot beforehand through testing, and if not usable, you don't even try to let the robot out.
 - If it's not safe for the robot, is there really any chance that it's not a deathwish to send crew on board ? You might be talking about the cases where they'd rather ditch the stage into the ocean than try to catch it.

Offline rsdavis9

I like the magnets under the deck.
The deck would need to be made of stainless or something non magnetic. Maybe thats why we saw them replacing the deck in the middle.
With ELV best efficiency was the paradigm. The new paradigm is reusable, good enough, and commonality of design.
Same engines. Design once. Same vehicle. Design once. Reusable. Build once.

Offline leetdan

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #1813 on: 02/27/2017 12:43 PM »
given that the ASDS will surely be on it's way back to port under it's own steam the moment the stage has landed

What is this claim based on?

Offline Johnnyhinbos

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #1814 on: 02/27/2017 12:52 PM »
I like the magnets under the deck.
The deck would need to be made of stainless or something non magnetic. Maybe thats why we saw them replacing the deck in the middle.
Or more probable, the magnet would be on the bot and just stick to the steel deck wherever it pleases. However IF (and that's a capital 'if') there really is going to be a robot on the ASDS (and that would be so freekin amazing!) I still expect it to fire some stud welds into the deck and call it a day. Welding and barges (sorry, ASDS's) go hand in hand...
John Hanzl. Author, action / adventure www.johnhanzl.com

Offline rsdavis9

I like the magnets under the deck.
The deck would need to be made of stainless or something non magnetic. Maybe thats why we saw them replacing the deck in the middle.
Or more probable, the magnet would be on the bot and just stick to the steel deck wherever it pleases. However IF (and that's a capital 'if') there really is going to be a robot on the ASDS (and that would be so freekin amazing!) I still expect it to fire some stud welds into the deck and call it a day. Welding and barges (sorry, ASDS's) go hand in hand...

I always liked magnets as a solution for attaching. The problem I had was four robots with wires to power the electromagnets across the deck. Now put the electromagnets and wires under deck away from salt  water and things to get tangled on and it sort of works out.
With ELV best efficiency was the paradigm. The new paradigm is reusable, good enough, and commonality of design.
Same engines. Design once. Same vehicle. Design once. Reusable. Build once.

Offline rsdavis9

Also would love to see some process handling improvement. Right now there is so many long steps to perform to get a booster horizontal on a truck.
1. automated way to remove legs
2. automated vertical to horizontal
3. remove need for crane

Thats a lot but it would nice to see any one of them.
With ELV best efficiency was the paradigm. The new paradigm is reusable, good enough, and commonality of design.
Same engines. Design once. Same vehicle. Design once. Reusable. Build once.

Offline rpapo

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #1817 on: 02/27/2017 01:21 PM »
Also would love to see some process handling improvement. Right now there is so many long steps to perform to get a booster horizontal on a truck.
1. automated way to remove legs
2. automated vertical to horizontal
3. remove need for crane

Thats a lot but it would nice to see any one of them.
It would be quite sufficient if they could eliminate the need for a crew of welders to board the barge in mid-ocean to secure the stage.  All else would be gravy.
An Apollo fanboy . . . fifty years ago.

Offline rsdavis9

Yes gravy! I love gravy on my fries!
With ELV best efficiency was the paradigm. The new paradigm is reusable, good enough, and commonality of design.
Same engines. Design once. Same vehicle. Design once. Reusable. Build once.

Offline CuddlyRocket

Also would love to see some process handling improvement. Right now there is so many long steps to perform to get a booster horizontal on a truck.
1. automated way to remove legs
2. automated vertical to horizontal
3. remove need for crane

Thats a lot but it would nice to see any one of them.
It would be quite sufficient if they could eliminate the need for a crew of welders to board the barge in mid-ocean to secure the stage.  All else would be gravy.

The plan for ITS is for the first stage to land back in its launch cradle. It would make sense to start technology development and testing as soon as possible, especially where you have legs as a back-up and it can provide current-day benefits. SpaceX has a knack of using current missions to develop future tech.

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