Author Topic: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3  (Read 603006 times)

Online Req

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #1740 on: 02/04/2017 02:02 PM »
And in the meantime SpaceX obviously just spouts fantasyland dreams off without looking into any of this.  Got it.  And arguing now = replying to people arguing with me after making a statement that couldn't have been interpreted as contradicting anything anybody was saying.

I have no doubt SpaceX "looks into" many things - including many things that don't happen in practical reality. That's the nature of their jobs. You can speculate all you want in the threads about that. In the meantime, running off into frenzied imaginings based on one elevated cargo container on the deck of the barge - in the absence of any physical evidence to support said imaginings - is more than a bit tiresome to people who actually understand engineering and physics.

I'm sorry but right on it's face I'm going to take what you call their "imaginings" over what you call your "understanding of engineering and physics."  Do you realize how absurd you sound?

Nobody knows what they are doing with block 5 or the ASDS, but you definitely know what they aren't doing, and that is the only remaining thing they have said they would do to the ASDS which they haven't yet.  Is that correct?
« Last Edit: 02/04/2017 02:11 PM by Req »

Offline Herb Schaltegger

And in the meantime SpaceX obviously just spouts fantasyland dreams off without looking into any of this.  Got it.  And arguing now = replying to people arguing with me after making a statement that couldn't have been interpreted as contradicting anything anybody was saying.

I have no doubt SpaceX "looks into" many things - including many things that don't happen in practical reality. That's the nature of their jobs. You can speculate all you want in the threads about that. In the meantime, running off into frenzied imaginings based on one elevated cargo container on the deck of the barge - in the absence of any physical evidence to support said imaginings - is more than a bit tiresome to people who actually understand engineering and physics.

I'm sorry but right on it's face I'm going to take what you call their "imaginings" over what you call your "understanding of engineering and physics."  Do you realize how absurd you sound?

Nobody knows what they are doing with block 5 or the ASDS, but you definitely know what they aren't doing, and that is the only remaining thing they have said they would do to the ASDS which they haven't yet.  Is that correct?

Clearly your grasp of the written word is on par with your understanding of engineering and physics. Do you realize how absurd you sound? The fact that you and you alone are willing to argue about exceedingly unlikely near-term major design changes - of which there is no evidence - should give you pause and give you a clue.

But do carry on if it makes you happy. Or until a moderator tells you to stop arguing just to see your own words in print. Many people - the BEST people! - have subscribed to this thread and are no doubt annoyed by the barrage of notifications that have next to nothing to do with the ASDS as they exist today and as they will exist in the near term of the next 3 - 6 months. I will suggest again that if you want to blue-sky a bunch of concepts for autonomous booster servicing and fly-back, you do so in a dedicated thread.
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Offline Jim

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #1742 on: 02/04/2017 02:29 PM »

Nobody knows what they are doing with block 5 or the ASDS, but you definitely know what they aren't doing, and that is the only remaining thing they have said they would do to the ASDS which they haven't yet.  Is that correct?

It is not flyback

Online Req

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #1743 on: 02/04/2017 02:32 PM »
Clearly your grasp of the written word is on par with your understanding of engineering and physics. Do you realize how absurd you sound? The fact that you and you alone are willing to argue about exceedingly unlikely near-term major design changes - of which there is no evidence - should give you pause and give you a clue.

But do carry on if it makes you happy. Or until a moderator tells you to stop arguing just to see your own words in print. Many people - the BEST people! - have subscribed to this thread and are no doubt annoyed by the barrage of notifications that have next to nothing to do with the ASDS as they exist today and as they will exist in the near term of the next 3 - 6 months. I will suggest again that if you want to blue-sky a bunch of concepts for autonomous booster servicing and fly-back, you do so in a dedicated thread.

There is no evidence of any specific change, what are you on about?  How is this idea any different than any of the others put forward aside from the fact that they have actually said they plan to do it?

What we do know is that they are doing work which indicates no evidence of anything in particular yet on the ASDS, and that they are doing a major revision to F9 which includes new legs, generic "reusability improvements", and increased thrust.

You act as if there's some prevailing obvious outcome here with evidence to support it.  Did I miss something?

Edit - Saw Jim's latest reply, whiffs of inside knowledge this time around, I'll take that.
« Last Edit: 02/04/2017 02:34 PM by Req »

Offline meekGee

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #1744 on: 02/04/2017 03:13 PM »
Req - quite a few of the people you're arguing with believe flyback is both possible physical, and will be interesting from an ops standpoint - and have discussed this point even before Musk's tweet.

But even these people don't think that the current barge mods are indicative of flyback, which was the statement that triggered this.

We don't know what b5 will bring, that's true.  But there has been zero indication, including from you, that it includes flyback - so that's speculation without basis.
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Online Req

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #1745 on: 02/04/2017 03:15 PM »
Which can be said about any speculation that has been put forward at this point.  If block 5 will include flyback, now would be a good time to start.  There is limited known extended downtime windows between now and the end of the year and much work to do, as many have pointed out.
« Last Edit: 02/04/2017 03:16 PM by Req »

Online vanoord

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #1746 on: 02/04/2017 03:15 PM »
Nobody knows what they are doing with block 5 or the ASDS, but you definitely know what they aren't doing, and that is the only remaining thing they have said they would do to the ASDS which they haven't yet.  Is that correct?

The acquisition of land and the construction of a refurbishing facility at Port Canaveral suggests that SpaceX intend to be returning cores by barge for some time yet.

Offline meekGee

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #1747 on: 02/04/2017 03:33 PM »
Which can be said about any speculation that has been put forward at this point.  If block 5 will include flyback, now would be a good time to start.  There is limited known extended downtime windows between now and the end of the year and much work to do, as many have pointed out.
First, this was about the barge, not about b5.

Second, no - most speculations have a basis in reality.

You can also speculate that b5 would have 12 engines.  But there has been no indication of that.

For flyback to occur, the changes to the barge will be more extensive than a raised container.
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Online Req

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #1748 on: 02/04/2017 03:35 PM »

The acquisition of land and the construction of a refurbishing facility at Port Canaveral suggests that SpaceX intend to be returning cores by barge for some time yet.

I agree that they will return cores by barge even if F9 is doing flybacks for any number of reasons I can imagine from bad downrange conditions to off-nominal landings to lack of schedule pressure.

Online Req

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #1749 on: 02/04/2017 03:38 PM »
Which can be said about any speculation that has been put forward at this point.  If block 5 will include flyback, now would be a good time to start working on the barge.  There is limited known extended downtime windows between now and the end of the year and much work to do, as many have pointed out.
First, this was about the barge, not about b5.

Second, no - most speculations have a basis in reality.

You can also speculate that b5 would have 12 engines.  But there has been no indication of that.

For flyback to occur, the changes to the barge will be more extensive than a raised container.

Added bold above.  How would known downtime windows be relevant to work on b5?

To clarify:  They have said that b5 will be the last major revision of F9, and they have said that they intend for F9 to perform flyback from this design of ASDS.  They haven't walked either back yet, and if both are true, then it may be smart to begin work on this large task of preparing the barge now due to the limited known extended downtime windows, which it was in at the time due to the planned expended stage.
« Last Edit: 02/04/2017 04:15 PM by Req »

Offline meekGee

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #1750 on: 02/04/2017 04:25 PM »
Which can be said about any speculation that has been put forward at this point.  If block 5 will include flyback, now would be a good time to start working on the barge.  There is limited known extended downtime windows between now and the end of the year and much work to do, as many have pointed out.
First, this was about the barge, not about b5.

Second, no - most speculations have a basis in reality.

You can also speculate that b5 would have 12 engines.  But there has been no indication of that.

For flyback to occur, the changes to the barge will be more extensive than a raised container.

Added bold above.  How would known downtime windows be relevant to work on b5?

To clarify:  They have said that b5 will be the last major revision of F9, and they have said that they intend for F9 to perform flyback from this design of ASDS.  They haven't walked either back yet, and if both are true, then it may be smart to begin work on this large task of preparing the barge now due to the limited known extended downtime windows, which it was in at the time due to the planned expended stage.
But we know the extent of work on the barge was minimal.

We also know that flight rate in the next 2 years doesn't justify flyback.

So something's gotta give.

Either b5 is not really final, but just the final revision of this incarnation

Or plans have changed

I mean, the scope and schedule for Its are so much more aggressive than I'd imagined, that I find it hard to keep thinking about far-field F9 evolution.

Except maybe in terms of prepping for ITS.

But anyway - Container went up, something new, deck related, is the logical conclusion, I'm still going with securing the stage, using 4 Roomba self-propelled self-welding feet.
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Online Req

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #1751 on: 02/04/2017 04:34 PM »
I agree that's the most likely possibility that has been put forward or that I can think of, in fact I think if that's the case we'd see it first even if they later added the mobile flyback equipment to the garage.  I wonder about the center deck plates though.

Edit - Also we have different definitions of minimal!  :o  Aside from that, my point is that they may want to start now exactly because they may have to do it in bite-sized chunks during these known extended downtime windows, and preferably get as much done as possible before LC-40 comes back online I'd think.
« Last Edit: 02/04/2017 04:45 PM by Req »

Online Chris Bergin

Ok let's calm this one down, as it's fast turning into a Jim-style Q&A with Req.

Potential for a splinter thread perhaps?

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #1753 on: 02/05/2017 12:14 PM »
Ok let's calm this one down, as it's fast turning into a Jim-style Q&A with Req.

Jim-style Q&A ? I wanna see that !  ;D

Offline maximlevitsky

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #1754 on: 02/07/2017 05:47 PM »
How is our loved ship (we surly still love her) is doing? Any recent pictures?  :)
« Last Edit: 02/07/2017 05:47 PM by maximlevitsky »

Offline Lar

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #1755 on: 02/08/2017 01:17 PM »
How is our loved ship (we surly still love her) is doing? Any recent pictures?  :)
My love for this little ASDS is not "surly"[1], it is welcoming and friendly ... 

Just like this thread ought to be. I was behind and got caught up. If we get that level of back and forth snark again, I'll delete all the posts even if it means throwing out useful info.

1 - yes, it's a typo for "surely" but I LOVE typos, they're funny.
« Last Edit: 02/09/2017 02:20 AM by Lar »
"I think it would be great to be born on Earth and to die on Mars. Just hopefully not at the point of impact." -Elon Musk
"We're a little bit like the dog who caught the bus" - Musk after CRS-8 S1 successfully landed on ASDS OCISLY

Offline matthewkantar

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #1756 on: 02/09/2017 12:19 PM »
But anyway - Container went up, something new, deck related, is the logical conclusion, I'm still going with securing the stage, using 4 Roomba self-propelled self-welding feet.

Will these self-propelled feet drive around the ASDS deck at random until they each find a rocket leg?

Matthew

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #1757 on: 02/09/2017 02:56 PM »
But anyway - Container went up, something new, deck related, is the logical conclusion, I'm still going with securing the stage, using 4 Roomba self-propelled self-welding feet.

Will these self-propelled feet drive around the ASDS deck at random until they each find a rocket leg?

Matthew

I don't quite see the relevance...

Although there was an early suggestion that the core would have its feet welded to the deck, that's not what happens.

The core has four jacks put under it, connected to lugs projecting from the octaweb, which presumably take some of the weight of the stage (or at least prevent it from crushing the legs as the ASDS moves).

The core is then strapped down to the deck by a pair of ratcheted straps attached to each of the four points where the jack is attached. These are attached to the deck by fixings that are indeed welded to the deck (they look to me like lengths of angle section steel, but there's probably more to them than that).

There's no way this process is going to be automated - it needs people to do it; and will continue to do so unless they completely change the way the stages land.

As for the work to raise the container? Presumably to make space for equipment storage - whether or not it's required for use on the deck after the stage has landed. That said, given the size of those jacks, I wouldn't be surprised if the space has been freed up for them (and potentially some new equipment to move them across the deck) to make handling the equipment safer and faster.
« Last Edit: 02/09/2017 02:57 PM by vanoord »

Offline Lar

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #1758 on: 02/09/2017 02:57 PM »
But anyway - Container went up, something new, deck related, is the logical conclusion, I'm still going with securing the stage, using 4 Roomba self-propelled self-welding feet.

Will these self-propelled feet drive around the ASDS deck at random until they each find a rocket leg?

Matthew
Speculation mode: They're not (going to be) mazerunning mice. Model S's don't drive around at random until they find a road, or bump into cars in parking spots until they find an empty one[1].... They use their vision/Lidar/Sonar/Radar etc.

Why would these putative bots not use derived sensors and guidance from a SpaceX sister company, it's more or less a solved problem. Especially with a human at hand to provide advice via joystick.

ModHat: NOT a license to drive down the "Oooh Tesla is cool" road.

1 - think about that visual, I found it hilarious. YMMV.
« Last Edit: 02/09/2017 02:59 PM by Lar »
"I think it would be great to be born on Earth and to die on Mars. Just hopefully not at the point of impact." -Elon Musk
"We're a little bit like the dog who caught the bus" - Musk after CRS-8 S1 successfully landed on ASDS OCISLY

Offline meekGee

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #1759 on: 02/09/2017 03:09 PM »
I'm pretty sure it was a joke, a-la cats in shark suits riding a Roomba.

There's a support ship right nearby, they can remote control the robots.
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