Author Topic: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3  (Read 806959 times)

Online meekGee

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #1700 on: 01/29/2017 10:04 PM »
Agreed that it looks like a hole but probably isn't.

But if it isn't - wth is it?

Those cut sections really do look like deck beams to me.  We don't have much to go on, but one possible explanation is in order to elevate that container, they decided they needed to strengthen the deck beneath and around the support 'legs' to distribute the load.  Given there are no access hatches into that area, they'd need to cut out and replace some of the substructure in the process.
That shot is one of the best perspective-conundrum pictures I've ever seen...
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Offline CameronD

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #1701 on: 01/29/2017 10:07 PM »
Agreed that it looks like a hole but probably isn't.

But if it isn't - wth is it?

Those cut sections really do look like deck beams to me.  We don't have much to go on, but one possible explanation is in order to elevate that container, they decided they needed to strengthen the deck beneath and around the support 'legs' to distribute the load.  Given there are no access hatches into that area, they'd need to cut out and replace some of the substructure in the process.
That shot is one of the best perspective-conundrum pictures I've ever seen...

Agreed.  It's also a great demonstration of lack of context. (ie. photos a day or two either side would be a big help!)
With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine - however, this is not necessarily a good idea. It is hard to be sure where they are
going to land, and it could be dangerous sitting under them as they fly overhead.

Offline Alastor

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #1702 on: 01/30/2017 12:22 PM »
They may install a door in the blast wall to allow access to the newly free space under the raised container. Seems like a lot of work to create a small amount of deck level storage, but they did have a little Spider lift destroyed by a hard landing. Maybe they need a secure little garage?

If this is a little garage like you say, then this begs the question of what equipment it would store.
Why would it be there specifically ?

The only thing I can see is if it is to store vehicles. Otherwise, you could put things further behind the wall and wouldn't need direct access to the deck.

So here we are again : Robotic securing of the booster ?
I keep thinking this has to be in the picture at some point ! It is very easy to imagine situations where crew access would be too risky ! (and we have seen examples of that too)

Offline MarekCyzio

We will know more when SpaceX installs the blastwall back. If this is a garage, it needs a garage opener ;)

Offline Johnnyhinbos

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #1704 on: 01/30/2017 12:58 PM »
Perhaps then we'll see a door installed on the booster that opens upon landing and a robotic arm articulates out holding a garage door opener. Of course then it comes back to landing accuracy and the ability to orient the booster so that the door is pointing the right way...
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Offline Req

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #1705 on: 02/01/2017 04:35 AM »
http://www.dailybreeze.com/business/20170131/spacex-wants-to-double-its-footprint-at-the-port-of-los-angeles

Quote
Hawthorne-based SpaceX, which is working through a backlog of rocket launches, wants to double the space it leases at the Port of Los Angeles to park and handle recovered space equipment.

The Board of Harbor Commissioners will vote at its Thursday morning meeting on a deal to enlarge Space Exploration Technologies Corp.’s footprint at San Pedro’s outer harbor. The company hopes to lease 4.6 acres of land and water area along Berths 51 to 53 for $23,735 a month, plus insurance and any incidental costs.

In addition to extra space, the lease agreement allows the company to have berthing rights, install a chain-link fence around the property, build a concrete rocket-support pedestal, and add an office trailer, guard shack and portable restrooms, according to a staff report prepared for the commission.

...

If the Harbor Commission approves the company’s lease expansion, it will provide enough space and access to comfortably park and offload the massive equipment on a regular basis. SpaceX plans at least six launches from Vandenberg Air Force Base through 2018 that will require at-sea landings, which means San Pedro will be getting an eyeful of the company’s rockets.

...

The port parking spot actually is on the campus of AltaSea marine research facility.

...

“Along with Boeing, Catalina Sea Ranch and the Exploration Vehicle Nautilus, AltaSea and the Port of LA are the home of space exploration and underwater exploration,” Buscaino said in a written statement. “My hope is that Elon Musk continues to see AltaSea and the Port of Los Angeles as an asset to his operations and continues to grow his company’s presence in San Pedro.”
« Last Edit: 02/01/2017 04:41 AM by Req »

Offline Alastor

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #1706 on: 02/02/2017 03:03 PM »
Continuation on my previous speculation :
If the current modifications are intended to robotically secure the booster, does the replacement of the center plates of the deck have anything to do with this ?

Could the old deck have been replaced with materials that are more easily weldable ?
Then the robots would grab the legs and weld themselves on the deck in order to secure the booster before the processing crew boards the ship.

Offline clegg78

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #1707 on: 02/02/2017 03:17 PM »
Roombas with Welders?  I dig it!
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Offline matthewkantar

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #1708 on: 02/02/2017 04:17 PM »
I am not convinced they did anything to the center plates.

Matthew

Offline CameronD

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #1709 on: 02/02/2017 09:21 PM »
Continuation on my previous speculation :
If the current modifications are intended to robotically secure the booster, does the replacement of the center plates of the deck have anything to do with this ?

Could the old deck have been replaced with materials that are more easily weldable ?
Then the robots would grab the legs and weld themselves on the deck in order to secure the booster before the processing crew boards the ship.

{Channelling my inner Jim} They're not going to "robotically secure" anything.  There is no need to do so.

If the center plates were indeed beefed up, it would only be address concerns with deck overheating (plates buckling) because their landings are so darned accurate.
« Last Edit: 02/02/2017 09:23 PM by CameronD »
With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine - however, this is not necessarily a good idea. It is hard to be sure where they are
going to land, and it could be dangerous sitting under them as they fly overhead.

Online meekGee

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #1710 on: 02/02/2017 09:42 PM »
Continuation on my previous speculation :
If the current modifications are intended to robotically secure the booster, does the replacement of the center plates of the deck have anything to do with this ?

Could the old deck have been replaced with materials that are more easily weldable ?
Then the robots would grab the legs and weld themselves on the deck in order to secure the booster before the processing crew boards the ship.

{Channelling my inner Jim} They're not going to "robotically secure" anything.  There is no need to do so.

If the center plates were indeed beefed up, it would only be address concerns with deck overheating (plates buckling) because their landings are so darned accurate.

Heh then you need to come up with an alternative theory for the under-container space....  It's only polite...
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Offline Alastor

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #1711 on: 02/02/2017 10:39 PM »
Continuation on my previous speculation :
If the current modifications are intended to robotically secure the booster, does the replacement of the center plates of the deck have anything to do with this ?

Could the old deck have been replaced with materials that are more easily weldable ?
Then the robots would grab the legs and weld themselves on the deck in order to secure the booster before the processing crew boards the ship.

{Channelling my inner Jim} They're not going to "robotically secure" anything.  There is no need to do so.

If the center plates were indeed beefed up, it would only be address concerns with deck overheating (plates buckling) because their landings are so darned accurate.

Not trying hard enough ! You used more than two words ::) (Sorry, Jim, but it's a bit true ;) ).

They nearly lost a booster once, and I take that as proof that there actually is a need to do so ! The concern not being that the landing wouldn't be accurate enough, but rather that the weather would be too bad to be able to safely boarding the ship and much less work on it.

It would also be less manpower needed if the hold downs can be rigid enough to completely replace the jacks that are currently used. It can mean that they wouldn't even need to board the ship at all before shore. Even potentially in the future it may mean no crew at sea (but that's a bit far feched I admit) ?

Obviously, mine is only a theory (robotic hold-downs, not the center plates) until hard facts back it, but there starts to be a lot of indications, both public and L2 (shameless L2 promotion ;) ) that make me truely believe that this theory might actually be happening right now.

Plus, it would be completely in the spirit of how SpaceX do stuff ! :)
« Last Edit: 02/02/2017 10:42 PM by Alastor »

Offline CameronD

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #1712 on: 02/02/2017 11:51 PM »
Heh then you need to come up with an alternative theory for the under-container space....  It's only polite...

I did... only one page back:  :)
https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=39766.msg1636709#msg1636709

« Last Edit: 02/03/2017 12:00 AM by CameronD »
With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine - however, this is not necessarily a good idea. It is hard to be sure where they are
going to land, and it could be dangerous sitting under them as they fly overhead.

Offline CameronD

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #1713 on: 02/02/2017 11:59 PM »
{Channelling my inner Jim} They're not going to "robotically secure" anything.  There is no need to do so.

If the center plates were indeed beefed up, it would only be address concerns with deck overheating (plates buckling) because their landings are so darned accurate.

Not trying hard enough ! You used more than two words ::) (Sorry, Jim, but it's a bit true ;) ).

You're quite right.. but, unlike Jim, I'm finding that being content to provide no explanation at all no matter how correct my answer might be is kinda hard to do.   ;)

They nearly lost a booster once, and I take that as proof that there actually is a need to do so ! The concern not being that the landing wouldn't be accurate enough, but rather that the weather would be too bad to be able to safely boarding the ship and much less work on it.

I've been following this (and the previous and previous) thread since the beginning and that's news to me!  Which booster are you referring to??

EDIT: They've only just landed a booster from the middle of the Pacific Ocean in the biggest waves we've seen yet and the booster didn't seem to me to be going anywhere but back home ..so I take that as proof there actually isn't a need to do anything just yet.  :)
 
« Last Edit: 02/03/2017 12:20 AM by CameronD »
With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine - however, this is not necessarily a good idea. It is hard to be sure where they are
going to land, and it could be dangerous sitting under them as they fly overhead.

Offline Req

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #1714 on: 02/03/2017 02:10 AM »
I assume he's referring to Thaicom-8, where one leg partially or completely crushed it's core and the rocket was leaning.  It was decided that it was unsafe for crews to secure the stage at sea, so it walked around on the deck for something like 5 days, somehow staying on the ASDS because of those short beam rails(or whatever they're called) around the perimeter.

Edit - If this is indeed a little garage for automated securing equipment, I hope they release sped up footage of the ASDS deck cams during that return voyage(now that they have eliminated that possibility).  That would be great to watch.  My personal wishful-thinking hope on both the deck plates and the raised container is something to do with refuel and hop back to land.  Maybe tanks below, the extra room is for GSE, the deck plates for takeoff impengement and/or holes/ports/etc or something for an at-sea service mast type hookup.  I know, not likely.
« Last Edit: 02/03/2017 02:38 AM by Req »

Offline Johnnyhinbos

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #1715 on: 02/03/2017 02:32 AM »
I assume he's referring to Thaicom-8, where one leg partially or completely crushed it's core and the rocket was leaning.  It was decided that it was unsafe for crews to secure the stage at sea, so it walked around on the deck for something like 5 days, somehow staying on the ASDS because of those short beam rails(or whatever they're called) around the perimeter.
Correct - and the booster had scudded across the deck and the only reason it didn't go over the side was because it was stopped by the yellow "toe kick" welded around the perimeter of the deck.

Now, this is being admitted by the guy (and I am a boater, crew, and someone knowledgeable in things nautical) who thought this kind of movement was unlikely due to the ballasting and dynamic positioning that the ASDS is equipped with. However,  I was proven wrong by that landing and subsequent sliding of a stage, a rocket that apparently I'm unable to come to grips with regarding its sheer size and stature.

So... now I'm open to even the most bizarre theories (kinda), though I must officially refute the electromagnetic or rotating magnetic robot shoe idea...
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Offline Jim

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #1716 on: 02/03/2017 02:56 AM »
I know, not likely.

Less than not likely, more like nil of a chance.
« Last Edit: 02/03/2017 02:57 AM by Jim »

Offline CameronD

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #1717 on: 02/03/2017 03:46 AM »
I know, not likely.

Less than not likely, more like nil of a chance.

What Jim said.. :)
With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine - however, this is not necessarily a good idea. It is hard to be sure where they are
going to land, and it could be dangerous sitting under them as they fly overhead.

Offline CameronD

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #1718 on: 02/03/2017 04:46 AM »
I assume he's referring to Thaicom-8, where one leg partially or completely crushed it's core and the rocket was leaning.  It was decided that it was unsafe for crews to secure the stage at sea, so it walked around on the deck for something like 5 days, somehow staying on the ASDS because of those short beam rails(or whatever they're called) around the perimeter.
Correct - and the booster had scudded across the deck and the only reason it didn't go over the side was because it was stopped by the yellow "toe kick" welded around the perimeter of the deck.

Now, this is being admitted by the guy (and I am a boater, crew, and someone knowledgeable in things nautical) who thought this kind of movement was unlikely due to the ballasting and dynamic positioning that the ASDS is equipped with. However,  I was proven wrong by that landing and subsequent sliding of a stage, a rocket that apparently I'm unable to come to grips with regarding its sheer size and stature.

Lessee.. so a booster lands hard and a leg partially collapses shifting the booster's CG enough that on a roll (or heave or whatever) it slides all over the deck.  SpX then (a) fix the leg issue and (b) ensure sufficient grip on the feet and, hey presto, subsequent landings show no signs of this issue re-occurring - even in Pacific Ocean rollers?!?

EDIT:  I confess I was one of those here who doubted they could get the CG low enough to stop the booster toppling overboard every time, but it seems they ran the calcs and succeeded.  Physics is physics.  Don't be too quick to doubt yourself. ;)
 
« Last Edit: 02/03/2017 05:02 AM by CameronD »
With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine - however, this is not necessarily a good idea. It is hard to be sure where they are
going to land, and it could be dangerous sitting under them as they fly overhead.

Offline Alastor

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #1719 on: 02/03/2017 08:52 AM »
I was indeed reffering to Thaicom-8.

I thinkthe key here is not "saving the booster", but rather "automation and reduced useless risks".

Now, on the "saving the booster" side :
The fact that they have included crush cores in the legs tells us that this is not an incident that was entirely due to a completely unique cause that was not foreseen and that they took actions to make sure that this could not ever happen again, but that this is rather something that they very early on have thought about.
I think they probably can't be certain that there will never be conditions (winds, waves, ...) where they have to land leaning, and thus use asymetrically the crush cores upon landing.
Sure they could say "the weather is too bad, splashdown !". But I expect them to try to push their luck and see how far they can go. This may very well include accepting that a stage can be saved at the cost of expanding the crush cores (that probably are expanded everytime anyway. It's a heavy bird !).

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