Author Topic: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3  (Read 827568 times)

Offline mvpel

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #1240 on: 06/22/2016 08:07 PM »
Presumably SpaceX already pay dockage, so would it be correct to say this $15k is in addition to that?

Or maybe they're adding another category to the wharfage price table above, so instead of falling under the "Not Otherwise Specified" $3.02 per ton rate, they're adding a "Orbital Boosters, Used" category and charging $500 per ton for it?
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Offline envy887

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #1241 on: 06/22/2016 08:32 PM »
Florida Today is reporting that Port Canaveral is looking to charge SpaceX $15,000 per returned core. SpaceX isn't happy. As had been mentioned, rocket cores are not a new thing at Port Canaveral (Shuttle SRB's, ULA stages) so its hard to see this as anything other than a bit of money grab...

So they want to charge $500/ton for a 30-ton rocket stage 12' in diameter secured on 4 stands certainly spreading the load over a 20' square?   

Meanwhile for comparison, a single 20' Standard Cargo Container can hold 25-tons and wharfage is $28/ton.

18x does seem quite unrelated to the actual wear and tear on the port.

Not sure if this was pointed out, but wharfage for containers is $28 or $35 EACH, not per ton. Trucks over 10,000lbs gross are $22 each. The highest per ton rate specifically called out is $3.02, or 1/166th of the aerospace rate.

http://www.portcanaveral.com/PortCanaveral/media/Business-With-Us-Tariffs/Canaveral-Port-Authority-Tariff14.pdf

Offline rayleighscatter

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #1242 on: 06/22/2016 09:06 PM »
Dockworkers unions also get a portion of the value of goods that pass through. This is a big part of the reason why 30 tons of coal and 30 tons of rocket have different rates. And if they're required to pay the federal HMF (I think they are) they also have to pay 0.125% of the value of the goods to the US gov't.

Offline AC in NC

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #1243 on: 06/22/2016 10:15 PM »
Not sure if this was pointed out, but wharfage for containers is $28 or $35 EACH, not per ton. Trucks over 10,000lbs gross are $22 each. The highest per ton rate specifically called out is $3.02, or 1/166th of the aerospace rate.

http://www.portcanaveral.com/PortCanaveral/media/Business-With-Us-Tariffs/Canaveral-Port-Authority-Tariff14.pdf

Good Catch!!!  Totally missed that.   



Or maybe they're adding another category to the wharfage price table above, so instead of falling under the "Not Otherwise Specified" $3.02 per ton rate, they're adding a "Orbital Boosters, Used" category and charging $500 per ton for it?

The price they are charging sounds more like they are considering it:

"Passenger Cruise Liner, Interplanetary, Experimental"
« Last Edit: 06/22/2016 10:16 PM by AC in NC »

Offline Confusador

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #1244 on: 06/22/2016 10:20 PM »
Dockworkers unions also get a portion of the value of goods that pass through. This is a big part of the reason why 30 tons of coal and 30 tons of rocket have different rates. And if they're required to pay the federal HMF (I think they are) they also have to pay 0.125% of the value of the goods to the US gov't.

That seems to be Harbor Maintenance Fee, not Hypergol Maintenance Facility.

Quote
HMF is only collected on imports, domestic shipments, Foreign-Trade Zone (FTZ) admissions, and passengers. They are required to pay .125% of the value of the commercial cargo shipped through identified ports.  HMF is not collected on cargo imported or transported via air.

Assuming this counts as "domestic shipments" and depending on how you value the stage, that could be $25,000-50,000.  If that's the fee being referred to, it might actually be reasonable.  FL Today did refer to it specifically as a "cargo wharfage charge" but as we've seen that it's orders of magnitude out of line for that I don't think it's the whole story.

And I am amused that flybacks are explicitly exempt.  Things I didn't expect to learn today...

Offline CameronD

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #1245 on: 06/23/2016 12:09 AM »
According to the Spacenews article:
Quote
The proposed fee, to be considered at a Canaveral Port Authority meeting this week, is intended to cover the costs to the port of handling the stage, which is returned to port on SpaceX’s autonomous spaceport drone ship after the stage lands at sea.

http://spacenews.com/spacex-balks-at-canaverals-proposed-15000-port-fees/

I hope that helps clear this up.
« Last Edit: 06/23/2016 12:10 AM by CameronD »
With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine - however, this is not necessarily a good idea. It is hard to be sure where they are
going to land, and it could be dangerous sitting under them as they fly overhead.

Offline CyndyC

Another space-related issue that was to be discussed & decided upon at the Port Authority's meeting today was whether or not to terminate an agreement between NASA & Port Canaveral to extend NASA's 17 miles of rail lines by 11 miles into the Port. Florida East Coast Railway definitely wants it, the environmentalists don't, and expanding cargo services was the former Port CEO's vision. Sounds to me like the $15K charge is the new admin looking for shortcuts as a substitute for the former CEO's grand vision. And this is potentially not just about SpaceX, so even if SpaceX can presumably afford it, can NASA down the road, or the newer and/or smaller rocket companies? Maybe not, and probably part of SpaceX's motivation for protesting. Source: http://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville keywords "Port Canaveral".
« Last Edit: 06/23/2016 01:38 AM by CyndyC »
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Offline Jim

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #1247 on: 06/23/2016 01:40 AM »
And this is potentially not just about SpaceX, so even though SpaceX can presumably afford it, can NASA down the road, or the newer and/or smaller rocket companies?

NASA and most other rocket companies (especially smaller one) would have little use for the Port.  ULA has been using the port since 2000 for Delta IV
« Last Edit: 06/23/2016 01:41 AM by Jim »

Offline CyndyC

And this is potentially not just about SpaceX, so even though SpaceX can presumably afford it, can NASA down the road, or the newer and/or smaller rocket companies?

NASA and most other rocket companies (especially smaller one) would have little use for the Port.  ULA has been using the port since 2000 for Delta IV

From the JBJ articles it sounded like the idea was to solicit NASA & other rocket companies to rely more on the Port in place of other, more expensive forms of transportation.
« Last Edit: 06/23/2016 02:10 AM by CyndyC »
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Offline rcoppola

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #1249 on: 06/23/2016 02:36 AM »
According to the Spacenews article:
Quote
The proposed fee, to be considered at a Canaveral Port Authority meeting this week, is intended to cover the costs to the port of handling the stage, which is returned to port on SpaceX’s autonomous spaceport drone ship after the stage lands at sea.

http://spacenews.com/spacex-balks-at-canaverals-proposed-15000-port-fees/

I hope that helps clear this up.
Hmmm. I wonder who called Mr. Murray and told him to take this whole thing down a notch.
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Offline Jim

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #1250 on: 06/23/2016 12:54 PM »

From the JBJ articles it sounded like the idea was to solicit NASA & other rocket companies to rely more on the Port in place of other, more expensive forms of transportation.

NASA has its own docks at LC-39.  NASA barges just pass through the port.  There are 3 areas on KSC and CCAFS barges and boats can berth at.  LC-39 turnaround basin, Hangar AF Pier and the ITL landing (which hasn't been used in awhile).

Offline the_other_Doug

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #1251 on: 06/23/2016 01:14 PM »

From the JBJ articles it sounded like the idea was to solicit NASA & other rocket companies to rely more on the Port in place of other, more expensive forms of transportation.

NASA has its own docks at LC-39.  NASA barges just pass through the port.  There are 3 areas on KSC and CCAFS barges and boats can berth at.  LC-39 turnaround basin, Hangar AF Pier and the ITL landing (which hasn't been used in awhile).

Would it make sense for SpaceX to try to move their operations to one of these dock facilities?  What do the transport options look like from them?  I'm assuming there are roads capable of moving an empty Falcon stage from each of these docking areas, not just rail stubs, but you know the Cape a heck of a lot better than most of us do, Jim.

I'm just thinking out loud as to whether or not SpaceX has other options for their ASDS operations, or if the Port Canaveral authorities literally have them tightly over a barrel on this one...
-Doug  (With my shield, not yet upon it)

Offline Jim

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #1252 on: 06/23/2016 01:16 PM »

Would it make sense for SpaceX to try to move their operations to one of these dock facilities? 

I believe the ASDS is too wide to use the lock to get to these areas.

Offline the_other_Doug

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #1253 on: 06/23/2016 01:27 PM »

Would it make sense for SpaceX to try to move their operations to one of these dock facilities? 

I believe the ASDS is too wide to use the lock to get to these areas.

Drat.  And yeah, I believe there are a couple of drawbridges to be negotiated to get to the turning basin, as well -- at least, I know I've seen a picture of an S-II stage being barged in to the LC-39 dock, moving under a raised drawbridge.  That wouldn't necessarily be a constraint on the height of a Falcon stage on an ASDS -- but I never thought about the width of the lock.

Thanks for the info, anyway.  But again... drat.
-Doug  (With my shield, not yet upon it)

Offline rcoppola

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #1254 on: 06/23/2016 03:12 PM »
Well...this is probably why they called off that meeting. Seems there are bigger ideas on how to use the Port. If true, it also sheds some light on where they'll be keeping some of these stages as they return as opposed to piling them up at either McGregor or the 39A HIF.

http://www.fox35orlando.com/news/local-news/164663415-story

(If I had to guess, I'd say Bruce Deardoff from the board called Murray and asked him to table that fee amount for now as there is a larger opportunity at hand.)
« Last Edit: 06/23/2016 03:18 PM by rcoppola »
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Online meekGee

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #1255 on: 06/23/2016 04:21 PM »
Well...this is probably why they called off that meeting. Seems there are bigger ideas on how to use the Port. If true, it also sheds some light on where they'll be keeping some of these stages as they return as opposed to piling them up at either McGregor or the 39A HIF.

http://www.fox35orlando.com/news/local-news/164663415-story

(If I had to guess, I'd say Bruce Deardoff from the board called Murray and asked him to table that fee amount for now as there is a larger opportunity at hand.)

I like that closing line... 
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Offline chrisking0997

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #1256 on: 06/23/2016 04:49 PM »
is all the debris removed from OCISLY yet?  If so, any pics of the deck?
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Offline brettreds2k

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #1257 on: 06/23/2016 09:17 PM »
Well...this is probably why they called off that meeting. Seems there are bigger ideas on how to use the Port. If true, it also sheds some light on where they'll be keeping some of these stages as they return as opposed to piling them up at either McGregor or the 39A HIF.

http://www.fox35orlando.com/news/local-news/164663415-story

(If I had to guess, I'd say Bruce Deardoff from the board called Murray and asked him to table that fee amount for now as there is a larger opportunity at hand.)

That article says retrieved boosters are stored in a Air force storage building, No they arent, they go to LC39A to their own building.
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Offline Kabloona

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #1258 on: 06/23/2016 10:02 PM »
OCISLY drydock update:

We have a report from the Grand Bahama Shipyard that they expect OCISLY to arrive there sometime next week for her Coast Guard mandated drydock inspection. Apparently they do cruise ship repairs and have a drydock wide enough to fit her wingspan. While in drydock, OCISLY may have a bottom plate replaced from the SES-9 impact, plus routine anode replacement, painting, thruster checkout, etc.

She will also reportedly have her bottom plates numbered in order to make her eligible for the Coast Guard's UWILD (Underwater Inspection in Lieu of Drydock) program.

Not clear now long this is expected to take, but source seems to think it's not a big deal for this shipyard to handle, so it sounds like chances are good she'll be back in business in time to catch the next GTO launch.

http://grandbahamashipyard.com
« Last Edit: 06/23/2016 10:53 PM by Kabloona »

Offline Kabloona

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Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #1259 on: 06/23/2016 10:16 PM »
And in other aerospace barge news, last week someone spotted this Apollo 19 Saturn V stage being transported on OCISLY's little sister (U 792) from NASA Michoud to NASA's INFINITY Science Center at Stennis for permanent display.

Unfortunately, this is one barged rocket that will never fly again.  :(

http://www.nasa.gov/press-release/transport-of-saturn-v-rocket-stage-to-stennis-space-center-a-matter-of-real-history
« Last Edit: 06/23/2016 11:23 PM by Kabloona »

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