Author Topic: New Russian Space Tourism Company  (Read 8704 times)

Offline Danderman

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New Russian Space Tourism Company
« on: 03/06/2016 12:55 pm »

Offline Lar

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Re: New Russian Space Tourism Company
« Reply #1 on: 03/06/2016 01:24 pm »
http://m.sputniknews.com/science/20160305/1035843182/russia-space-tourism.html

They have declared their intent to launch by 2020.



That article is quite short on details... what launcher? what capsule? Existing or new development (150M USD seems light for new development but...)

That source is interesting... clearly a party line slant on things. SpaceX F9 S1 "exploded", Ukranian tank made out of dumpsters, etc.
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Offline JSz

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Re: New Russian Space Tourism Company
« Reply #2 on: 03/06/2016 02:42 pm »
More details we can find on: http://www.cosmocourse.com/:

Quote
    Экипаж: 6 туристов + инструктор.
    Цена билета: 200÷250 тыс. $.
    Высота полёта: 180÷220 км.
    Время в невесомости: 5÷6 минут.
    Время полёта: 15 минут.
    Первый полёт: 2020 год.

Total volume of capsule will be about 30 m3.

Scheme of mission is somewhat familiar :):



Offline Borklund

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Re: New Russian Space Tourism Company
« Reply #3 on: 03/06/2016 03:51 pm »
Pressure suits!

Offline Stan-1967

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Re: New Russian Space Tourism Company
« Reply #4 on: 03/06/2016 04:34 pm »
Looks like fun ride for $200k-$250k.   180 - 220 km altitude is higher than BO or SS2 ( iircc ).

I got this translation for the parachute landing portion: "applying reactive landing parachute system that provides a guaranteed safe landing MSKA at relatively low speeds, even in case of failure of the parachute or rocket systems (rigid planting scheme);"

However I can't tell from the picture/schematic if the capsule itself will fire short burst retro rockets ala Soyuz & BO style landing, or it it has something else in mind.  Looking at the picture, the capsule looks like it lands with engines firing from the sides, similar to DragonFly, alternately the landing legs are painted yellow, just like the the rocket exhaust.  :) 

Offline Gliderflyer

Re: New Russian Space Tourism Company
« Reply #5 on: 03/06/2016 04:55 pm »
Looks like the capsule is firing the landing rockets for reentry in step 4. They must be using them to reduce the reentry g forces, which will be brutal from 200km. For reference, Mercury reached an apogee around 190km and had over 11g on the way back down.
I tried it at home

Offline Stan-1967

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Re: New Russian Space Tourism Company
« Reply #6 on: 03/06/2016 05:36 pm »
Looks like the capsule is firing the landing rockets for reentry in step 4. They must be using them to reduce the reentry g forces, which will be brutal from 200km. For reference, Mercury reached an apogee around 190km and had over 11g on the way back down.

I didn't notice that, but it makes a lot of sense.  Falling around 100km would also result in reentry temps around 1400K, so they may simplify the heat shield design with a retro burn.   

Offline TrevorMonty

Re: New Russian Space Tourism Company
« Reply #7 on: 03/06/2016 07:17 pm »
How much extra free fall time does going to 200km give over 100km?.
« Last Edit: 03/06/2016 07:18 pm by TrevorMonty »

Offline Gliderflyer

Re: New Russian Space Tourism Company
« Reply #8 on: 03/06/2016 07:26 pm »
How much extra free fall time does going to 200km give over 100km?.

100km gives you about 3-4 minutes depending on how you define freefall. This group is advertising 5-6 minutes.
I tried it at home

Offline Stan-1967

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Re: New Russian Space Tourism Company
« Reply #9 on: 03/06/2016 07:50 pm »
It is in "freefall" on the way up as well.  From the moment engines cut off, passengers will feel zero-g.   BOE calculations suggest about 2.5 to 3 minutes going up, and the same coming down.   That give you 5-6 minutes total.   Somewhere at the end of the ride, it looks like the retro burn starts to ease the speed for re-entry.

Offline ChrisWilson68

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Re: New Russian Space Tourism Company
« Reply #10 on: 03/06/2016 08:49 pm »
The article claims, "the company already has all the technologies it requires".  It also says, "the company hasn't cooperated with any foreign organizations in order to avoid dealing with possible bans on technology exchange".

I guess I must have missed where Russia has built a booster that sends a payload into space and then lands propulsively on legs.   ::)

Offline Borklund

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Re: New Russian Space Tourism Company
« Reply #11 on: 03/06/2016 08:59 pm »
I think you're conflating ready built hardware with technology. Let's give them the benefit of the doubt, though I take your point.

Offline ChrisWilson68

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Re: New Russian Space Tourism Company
« Reply #12 on: 03/06/2016 09:47 pm »
I think you're conflating ready built hardware with technology. Let's give them the benefit of the doubt, though I take your point.

It's not just a lack of ready-built hardware, it's never having built any sort of prototype rocket that does vertical landing that's anything like a stage that could put something in sub-orbital space.

I'm not saying that it's a particularly challenging technology or that Russia couldn't do it, just that saying "the company already has all the technologies it requires" is not really accurate.

Offline Stan-1967

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Re: New Russian Space Tourism Company
« Reply #13 on: 03/06/2016 10:18 pm »
I think you're conflating ready built hardware with technology. Let's give them the benefit of the doubt, though I take your point.

It's not just a lack of ready-built hardware, it's never having built any sort of prototype rocket that does vertical landing that's anything like a stage that could put something in sub-orbital space.

I'm not saying that it's a particularly challenging technology or that Russia couldn't do it, just that saying "the company already has all the technologies it requires" is not really accurate.

Well I guess if you count the Lunokhod rover, which propulsively decended to the lunar surface, Russian has some technology experience with this.   Russia has plenty of land, so maybe a precision landing is not needed. :)

It seem plausible that Soyuz technology can handle the requirements for the capsule portion
I have no doubt that they can pull off a Kerolox engine of appropriate thrust.   Re-usable kerolox I'm not so sure they have ever worked on that.
Joking aside about their access to a very big landing ellipse, if they want re-use, they have to land where infrastructure can transport and refurb for the next flight.   They are going to have to solve the flight software problem somehow.   

I wish them well!   I always love the story of how the American's invested millions of $$ to make a 'space pen" that worked in zero g, when we asked the Soviets how they solved this problem, they said they used a pencil.

That the innovative spirit I would love to see.



Offline DigitalMan

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Re: New Russian Space Tourism Company
« Reply #14 on: 03/06/2016 10:42 pm »
Since there are so few to no facts in this thread here's one
http://history.nasa.gov/spacepen.html

Offline ChrisWilson68

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Re: New Russian Space Tourism Company
« Reply #15 on: 03/06/2016 10:43 pm »
I always love the story of how the American's invested millions of $$ to make a 'space pen" that worked in zero g, when we asked the Soviets how they solved this problem, they said they used a pencil.

That the innovative spirit I would love to see.

Everyone loves the story of the space pen and those clever Russians and their pencils.  Too bad it isn't true.

From Snopes.com, debunker of myth:

Quote
Both U.S. astronauts and Soviet cosmonauts initially used pencils on space flights, but those writing instruments were not ideal: pencil tips can flake and break off, and having such objects floating around space capsules in near-zero gravity posed a potential harm to astronauts and equipment. (As well, after the fatal Apollo 1 fire in 1967, NASA was anxious to avoid having astronauts carry flammable objects such as pencils onboard with them.)

When the solution of providing astronauts with a ballpoint pen that would work under weightless conditions and extreme temperatures came about, though, it wasn't because NASA had thrown hundreds of thousands of dollars (inflated to $12 billion in the latest iterations of this tale) in research and development money at the problem. The "space pen" that has since become famous through its use by astronauts was developed independently by Paul C. Fisher of the Fisher Pen Co., who spent his own money on the project and, once he perfected his AG-7 "Anti-Gravity" Space Pen, offered it to NASA. After that agency tested and approved the pen's suitability for use in space flights, they purchased a number of the instruments from Fisher for a modest price.

http://www.snopes.com/business/genius/spacepen.asp

Offline Danderman

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Re: New Russian Space Tourism Company
« Reply #16 on: 03/06/2016 11:46 pm »
Anyone familiar with Russian grounds ops will tell you that building a new pad at Kapustin Yar will take more than 4 years, so any rocket that is Soyuz based will not fly from there any time soon. There may be a fit with an existing pad, but it would have to be a small rocket.

I am not sure if the base supports LOX any more, they haven't flown a kerosene fueled rocket from there in 60 years or so.

Offline Stan-1967

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Re: New Russian Space Tourism Company
« Reply #17 on: 03/07/2016 12:28 am »
I always love the story of how the American's invested millions of $$ to make a 'space pen" that worked in zero g, when we asked the Soviets how they solved this problem, they said they used a pencil.

That the innovative spirit I would love to see.

Everyone loves the story of the space pen and those clever Russians and their pencils.  Too bad it isn't true.

From Snopes.com, debunker of myth:

Quote
Both U.S. astronauts and Soviet cosmonauts initially used pencils on space flights, but those writing instruments were not ideal: pencil tips can flake and break off, and having such objects floating around space capsules in near-zero gravity posed a potential harm to astronauts and equipment. (As well, after the fatal Apollo 1 fire in 1967, NASA was anxious to avoid having astronauts carry flammable objects such as pencils onboard with them.)

When the solution of providing astronauts with a ballpoint pen that would work under weightless conditions and extreme temperatures came about, though, it wasn't because NASA had thrown hundreds of thousands of dollars (inflated to $12 billion in the latest iterations of this tale) in research and development money at the problem. The "space pen" that has since become famous through its use by astronauts was developed independently by Paul C. Fisher of the Fisher Pen Co., who spent his own money on the project and, once he perfected his AG-7 "Anti-Gravity" Space Pen, offered it to NASA. After that agency tested and approved the pen's suitability for use in space flights, they purchased a number of the instruments from Fisher for a modest price.

http://www.snopes.com/business/genius/spacepen.asp

Now you've really ruined my day with that buzzkill!  >:( >:(   And I just renewed for a year!

Pesky facts!  I'm still pulling for the Russians, but agree they suffer from time dilation disorder worse than the worst US rocket companies.  Even though the Russians have some relevant historical experience, it is likely that most of the talent base is retired old cold warriors.   Where do talented Russian scientists and engineers typically end up? 

I think the US has put much more into preserving and building a talent base for rocketry.  You have SpaceX being built with a much younger generation.  BO is compromised of a bunch of folks with experience in the DC-X from what I have read, even ULA, Boeing, ATK, and the rest of new space seem to be onboard with the talent development program.  ( AJR intentionally left off this list, but what do I know?)

« Last Edit: 03/07/2016 01:34 am by Stan-1967 »

Offline ChrisWilson68

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Re: New Russian Space Tourism Company
« Reply #18 on: 03/07/2016 12:57 am »
I'm still pulling for the Russian, but agree they suffer from time dilation disorder worse than the worst US rocket companies.  Even though the Russians have some relevant historical experience, it is likely that most of the talent base is retired old cold warriors.   Where to talented Russian scientists and engineers typically end up?

I think a lot of talent that might have ended up in aerospace engineering ends up leaving Russia.  I have several coworkers and other friends who grew up in Russia or Ukraine but now have successful careers in Silicon Valley in software.  Part of the tragedy of Putin is that those who are best-educated and smartest are most likely to flee Putin's Russia, because they're the ones least likely to like it and most likely to be able to go to the West.

Offline savuporo

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Re: New Russian Space Tourism Company
« Reply #19 on: 05/24/2016 06:25 pm »

http://www.the-dialogue.com/en/en23-pioneers-of-private-astronautics-in-russia-cosmocourse/

Quote
Our project is similar to Blue Origin, but compared to them we have a higher flight altitude (200 km against 100) and we have more time spent in weightlessness (5–6 minutes versus 3–4 minutes).

http://tass.ru/en/science/860668
Quote
"Our technical design specification was approved by Roscosmos two days ago. The system’s preliminary design will be created with this document," Pushkin said at the InSpace forum.

According to him, the technical design specification has also been approved by the Central Research Institute of Machine Building (TsNIIMash) and the Keldysh Research Center. In addition, Pushkin said, Roscosmos chief Igor Komarov has already approved the project. "Igor Anatolyevich has taken the project with enthusiasm and gave orders to promote this project", Pushkin said.
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