Author Topic: Range Safety and KO Zone  (Read 1263 times)

Offline Rocket Science

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Range Safety and KO Zone
« on: 03/01/2016 05:11 PM »
File you range constraints, complaints and suggestions here...
"The laws of physics are unforgiving"
~Rob: Physics instructor, Aviator, Vintage auto racer

Offline FinalFrontier

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Re: Range Safety and KO Zone
« Reply #1 on: 03/01/2016 05:14 PM »
Going to repost my previous posts here regarding SES  9 range violations

Correct. I'm not doing anything illegal so can't be taken to court.  So long as I dont interfere with the passage and navigation of a another vessel I can bob around out there as long as I want.

Navigation in international waters doesn't say anything about landing rockets.



Also just because they can't stop you doesn't mean they can't sue you for messing with their business once you again set foot on US soil later. Especially if you did it on purpose.


Spacex would have no ground for a suit.

International maritime law does exist, and is more complex than that.  In some cases, you can do things and not be concerned about being taken to court, true -- but also other people and countries are free to try and get you to stop doing those things, up to and including firing a shot across your bow... ;)
Unlikely they would have any grounds unless the vessel actually caused harm or an accident.
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Offline FinalFrontier

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Re: Range Safety and KO Zone
« Reply #2 on: 03/01/2016 05:15 PM »
From the Florida Today article:

Quote
"A lot of people are asking if they could be fined," he said. "They could be fined for not using AIS system."

So that's why it didn't show up on MarineTraffic. No AIS transponder.

Master of the vessel will probably be fined by USCG. Company side he will probably lose his job.

Can the coast guard fine outside of the contiguous zone?
No, but they can fine the master for violating the zone while in command of the vessel and for failure to stay apprised of notice to mariners and updates to the local coastal pilots guide and NAV circulars.
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Offline vapour_nudge

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Re: Range Safety and KO Zone
« Reply #3 on: 03/01/2016 05:19 PM »
Going to repost my previous posts here regarding SES  9 range violations

Correct. I'm not doing anything illegal so can't be taken to court.  So long as I dont interfere with the passage and navigation of a another vessel I can bob around out there as long as I want.

Navigation in international waters doesn't say anything about landing rockets.



Also just because they can't stop you doesn't mean they can't sue you for messing with their business once you again set foot on US soil later. Especially if you did it on purpose.


Spacex would have no ground for a suit.

International maritime law does exist, and is more complex than that.  In some cases, you can do things and not be concerned about being taken to court, true -- but also other people and countries are free to try and get you to stop doing those things, up to and including firing a shot across your bow... ;)
Unlikely they would have any grounds unless the vessel actually caused harm or an accident.
Jim. SpaceX would have no grounds for a suit because there is no ground out there ❤️<cringe> Is there a thread for bad Dad jokes?

Offline FinalFrontier

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Re: Range Safety and KO Zone
« Reply #4 on: 03/01/2016 05:19 PM »
As far as I know, the only legal issue beyond the 12 mile is interference with navigation.  You can get special exclusion zones (say for oil rigs etc) but these take time and last a long time. Would be difficult to get one for a barge landing.


Notices to Mariners are just advisory and not mandatory in any way. It's up to you as the "Captain" to ensure the safety of your vessel and crew and if you put them in harms way, you may have to answer back in the country where your vessel is registered.


Correct. I'm not doing anything illegal so can't be taken to court.  So long as I dont interfere with the passage and navigation of a another vessel I can bob around out there as long as I want.

Navigation in international waters doesn't say anything about landing rockets.



Also just because they can't stop you doesn't mean they can't sue you for messing with their business once you again set foot on US soil later. Especially if you did it on purpose.


Spacex would have no ground for a suit.

Keep in mind that civil lawsuits don't necessarily depend on any criminal law, and can be international in scope (though not easy to do). Businesses sue other businesses for tort claims all the time. IANAL, but if a mariner has to read the NOTAM, and then takes action that interferes with the launch provider, somebody could make a claim on that.

Here's the thing. There are areas marked on all inland and international charts regarding rocket and ballistic missile downrange test areas. These areas are marked as either danger, no go, or periodic closure. Regular circulars and advisorys are issued by the USCG or navigational authority as to when periodic closure areas will be closed, and it is the duty of the vessel operator and the master of the vessel to stay apprised of these closures. This supersedes a "normal" message or caution listed in notice to mariners.

Now SpaceX would not have a case in court because the vessel did not cause any harm or direct damage or danger to their operations, but the USCG can fine them for failure to stay apprised of routine circulars and closures of a special area. If an area is closed periodically by the USCG or USAF you are supposed to stay away from it, if you are a commercial mariner and you violate a closure knowingly or otherwise its your fault for not staying aware of the closure.

It will not reflect well on the master of the vessel, the operator, and especially whoever was in charge of the navigational watch at the time.
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Offline Rocket Science

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Re: Range Safety and KO Zone
« Reply #5 on: 03/01/2016 05:21 PM »
From an aviation perspective as a pilot is is my responsibility to stay out of known "blasting areas" so I don't get hit by some shrapnel...
"The laws of physics are unforgiving"
~Rob: Physics instructor, Aviator, Vintage auto racer

Offline FinalFrontier

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Re: Range Safety and KO Zone
« Reply #6 on: 03/01/2016 05:27 PM »
From an aviation perspective as a pilot is is my responsibility to stay out of known "blasting areas" so I don't get hit by some shrapnel...
It is the same here especially since the areas east of the cape are very clearly marked in every chart I have ever seen. It is common knowledge to avoid them in and around launches.

Possibly what happened is due to delays in launch schedule the vessel operator (company side) failed to send a closure update to their crew on-board and the crew assumed the launch had already happened but I doubt it.

USCG also broadcasts a closed area over radio during a launch sequence so they should have at least had that.
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"Live Long and Prosper"

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