Author Topic: Blue Origin - New Shepard third flight and landing (Reuse)  (Read 56473 times)

Offline sanman

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Re: Blue Origin - New Shepard third flight and landing (Reuse)
« Reply #20 on: 01/23/2016 04:35 AM »
Congratulations to Blue Origin for what appears to be a very smooth flight.  I still think that they are competing with Virgin Galactic, not SpaceX (for the moment).  It would help if they would drop the Soviet Propaganda Ministry approach and actually show something live.

Well, they seem to have been working in a low-profile stealth mode since the beginning, and that means that it's after successfully completing something that they announce it. Granted, it does mean that they are late-comers to this PR game. Perhaps it's only now that they've entered into a period of more frequent milestones that they are now increasingly bringing these successes to our attention. They're self-funding and not directly servicing NASA the way SpaceX is, and so they've had less of a need to be public in their endeavors.

It is really Bezos'/Blue's style that's more noteworthy, or is it Musk's/SpaceX's?

But gee, it's getting to feel like Ford-vs-GM-vs-Chrysler, or Lockheed-vs-Boeing, or Apple-vs-Microsoft, etc.

More goodies for all space-lovers to enjoy!

Offline notsorandom

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Re: Blue Origin - New Shepard third flight and landing (Reuse)
« Reply #21 on: 01/23/2016 04:38 AM »
Does this New Sheppard vehicle have a personal name? I think that any rocket that flies to space repeatedly should.

Offline sanman

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Re: Blue Origin - New Shepard third flight and landing (Reuse)
« Reply #22 on: 01/23/2016 04:51 AM »
So just from this bit of the NSF article:

Quote
One of the software improvements related to the landing approach.

“Rather than the vehicle translating to land at the exact center of the pad, it now initially targets the center, but then sets down at a position of convenience on the pad, prioritizing vehicle attitude ahead of precise lateral positioning,” added Mr. Bezos.

“It’s like a pilot lining up a plane with the centerline of the runway. If the plane is a few feet off center as you get close, you don’t swerve at the last minute to ensure hitting the exact mid-point. You just land a few feet left or right of the centerline.

“Our Monte Carlo sims of New Shepard landings show this new strategy increases margins, improving the vehicle’s ability to reject disturbances created by low-altitude winds.”

Would this technique be better or worse or same compared to what F9R booster is doing on the actual landing?

If SpaceX isn't doing this, then would they be inclined to implement something similar? Or why not?

Is stuff like this patentable? (Hey, Amazon patented single clicks for ads, remember?)
Or can anybody borrow and implement the idea?





Just remembering Apple's hardline approach on IP squatting and lawsuits, I hope the currently refreshing space race doesn't ever give way to IP litigation wars.
« Last Edit: 01/23/2016 04:55 AM by sanman »

Offline Darkseraph

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Re: Blue Origin - New Shepard third flight and landing (Reuse)
« Reply #23 on: 01/23/2016 04:54 AM »
I appreciate Blue's heads down "When it's done!" approach to development.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." R.P.Feynman

Offline Dante80

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Re: Blue Origin - New Shepard third flight and landing (Reuse)
« Reply #24 on: 01/23/2016 05:00 AM »
So just from this bit of the NSF article:

Quote
One of the software improvements related to the landing approach.

“Rather than the vehicle translating to land at the exact center of the pad, it now initially targets the center, but then sets down at a position of convenience on the pad, prioritizing vehicle attitude ahead of precise lateral positioning,” added Mr. Bezos.

“It’s like a pilot lining up a plane with the centerline of the runway. If the plane is a few feet off center as you get close, you don’t swerve at the last minute to ensure hitting the exact mid-point. You just land a few feet left or right of the centerline.

“Our Monte Carlo sims of New Shepard landings show this new strategy increases margins, improving the vehicle’s ability to reject disturbances created by low-altitude winds.”

Would this technique be better or worse or same compared to what F9R booster is doing on the actual landing?

If SpaceX isn't doing this, then would they be inclined to implement something similar? Or why not?

Is stuff like this patentable? (Hey, Amazon patented single clicks for ads, remember?)
Or can anybody borrow and implement the idea?

It makes sense. If you have a pad that is 50 meters wide, there is no need for the rocket to do very big adjustments at the end of its flight so that you land in dead center. If you see the previous New Shepard flight, the stage needed to adjust its horizontal position aggressively while hovering, so as to hit the bullseye. In the latest flight the new software kicks in, thus making landing a lot more "elegant" than before.

SpaceX could work (or has already worked) on something similar for RTLS, but barge landings have a lot less margin so you need as much precision as possible.

Its impossible to patent this behavior adjustment.

Offline sanman

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Re: Blue Origin - New Shepard third flight and landing (Reuse)
« Reply #25 on: 01/23/2016 05:09 AM »
It makes sense. If you have a pad that is 50 meters wide, there is no need for the rocket to do very big adjustments at the end of its flight so that you land in dead center. If you see the previous New Shepard flight, the stage needed to adjust its horizontal position aggressively while hovering, so as to hit the bullseye. In the latest flight the new software kicks in, thus making landing a lot more "elegant" than before.

SpaceX could work (or has already worked) on something similar for RTLS, but barge landings have a lot less margin so you need as much precision as possible.

Its impossible to patent this behavior adjustment.

Okay, so is this saving enough fuel to make it worthwhile?
How much benefit does it have to provide for you to even care?

Or is it purely an improvement in vehicle stability and landing success probability?


I wonder if they used Amazon's cloud computing infrastructure for any of these Monte Carlo computations?
« Last Edit: 01/23/2016 05:13 AM by sanman »

Offline Dante80

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Re: Blue Origin - New Shepard third flight and landing (Reuse)
« Reply #26 on: 01/23/2016 05:44 AM »
Okay, so is this saving enough fuel to make it worthwhile?
How much benefit does it have to provide for you to even care?
Or is it purely an improvement in vehicle stability and landing success probability?

1. Fuel is not a big consideration for this one. It might be for an orbital class first stage.
2. Why not care? Better beats good enough, provided you can reach the better point easily.
3. It is.
« Last Edit: 01/23/2016 11:46 AM by Chris Bergin »

Online guckyfan

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Re: Blue Origin - New Shepard third flight and landing (Reuse)
« Reply #27 on: 01/23/2016 06:45 AM »
Notice jeff said "Though it will be the small vehicle in our orbital family.."  I guess there will be siblings/other vehicles???

He said it in his article.



Quote
to achieve our vision of millions of people living and working in space — we will need to build very large rocket boosters. And the vertical landing architecture scales extraordinarily well.
......................

We’re already more than three years into development of our first orbital vehicle. Though it will be the small vehicle in our orbital family, it’s still many times larger than New Shepard. I hope to share details about this first orbital vehicle this year.

So a sensible approach, building a small orbital test vehicle, then the big one. Will it match BFR or be somewhere intermediate, Falcon Heavy range? Exciting times and congratulations to Blue.

Offline jacqmans

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Re: Blue Origin - New Shepard third flight and landing (Reuse)
« Reply #28 on: 01/23/2016 07:29 AM »
« Last Edit: 01/23/2016 07:41 AM by jacqmans »

Online FutureSpaceTourist

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Re: Blue Origin - New Shepard third flight and landing (Reuse)
« Reply #29 on: 01/23/2016 08:29 AM »
Congratulations BO! Fantastic to see reuse in action and at the first attempt.

I was thinking BO will be the first into suborbital passenger service, I'm now wondering if they will be the only ones for the foreseeable future. XCOR and VG have major issues and I can see their customer bases evaporating once BO start flying people.

Offline Star One

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Re: Blue Origin - New Shepard third flight and landing (Reuse)
« Reply #30 on: 01/23/2016 08:42 AM »
Excellent work by BO. The future is finally here, to a degree.:)

Offline Dante80

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Re: Blue Origin - New Shepard third flight and landing (Reuse)
« Reply #31 on: 01/23/2016 09:43 AM »
I didn't really see any jab at SpaceX. It's certainly a marketing video, they want to sell tickets after all. It's completely factual though.

If you really want to nitpick, take a look at the huge amount of salt accompanying Elons' "congratulations" to Blue after their first recovered flight...
« Last Edit: 01/23/2016 09:43 AM by Dante80 »

Online TrevorMonty

Congratulations Blue.

Offline Oersted

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Re: Blue Origin - New Shepard third flight and landing (Reuse)
« Reply #33 on: 01/23/2016 10:46 AM »
It'd be really interesting to know how much the refurbishment cost, but I don't suppose we'll find that out for a long time.

Bezos writes (https://www.blueorigin.com/news/blog/launch-land-repeat):
"Data from the November mission matched our preflight predictions closely, which made preparations for today’s re-flight relatively straightforward. The team replaced the crew capsule parachutes, replaced the pyro igniters, conducted functional and avionics checkouts, and made several software improvements[...]"

... Which indicates that the refurbishment costs were trivial.

Offline Oersted

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Re: Blue Origin - New Shepard third flight and landing (Reuse)
« Reply #34 on: 01/23/2016 10:50 AM »
Congratulations Blue Origin!

- I remember another Space Race where one team pipped the initial "firsts" before the other team caught up and accomplished impressive "firsts" in its own right. Maybe this new race between Blue Origin and SpaceX will be similar? - We can hope so, for the good of space travel.

- It is amazing to have two companies going for booster re-use with different and competing technologies. It will keep both teams sharp in a way that competing with Old Space would never do.

Offline rpapo

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An Apollo fanboy . . . fifty years ago.

Offline Eer

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Re: Blue Origin - New Shepard third flight and landing (Reuse)
« Reply #36 on: 01/23/2016 11:29 AM »


Congratulations Blue Origin!

- It is amazing to have two companies going for booster re-use with different and competing technologies. It will keep both teams sharp in a way that competing with Old Space would never do.
I think this is the interesting thing, and changes the nature of the reusable industry from curiosity with cautious review by incombants into spirited competion by the new players.

Note that as far as I know, both companies have good stocks of experienced, skilled people. They (those experienced people) are not new to the game, but they're being given licence to change the game by new leaders able to change the finance and risk tolerance game.

Good for them, and good for Tony Bruno for taking them seriously.




Offline laszlo

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Re: Blue Origin - New Shepard third flight and landing (Reuse)
« Reply #37 on: 01/23/2016 11:32 AM »
It is an exciting time. It harks back 11 years to when Spaceship One won the Ansari Prize by flying above the Kalman Line twice in 5 days. Now the VTVL entries (that started with the DC-X in 1991) are catching up and the possibilities are expanding exponentially. This is the good kind of back to the past. Let's hope it keeps up.

Offline Oersted

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Re: Blue Origin - New Shepard third flight and landing (Reuse)
« Reply #38 on: 01/23/2016 11:33 AM »
Together with Paul Allens Stratolaunch it seems we will have a good gamut of cheap space launch options by the end of the decade. This will surely revolutionize the satellite and space business.

Offline sanman

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Re: Blue Origin - New Shepard third flight and landing (Reuse)
« Reply #39 on: 01/23/2016 12:23 PM »
From Blue's site:
https://www.blueorigin.com/news

Quote
We’re already more than three years into development of our first orbital vehicle. Though it will be the small vehicle in our orbital family, it’s still many times larger than New Shepard. I hope to share details about this first orbital vehicle this year.

Is it likely these details will be shared in connection with a launch of this new rocket? Is anything known about the timeline for when it will appear?

And so will its booster be using the BE-4 engine?

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