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#200 by Chris Bergin on 06 Sep, 2007 21:37
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I think everyone missed the above post due to the Proton going wrong last night. Fascinating stuff :cool:Quote
antonioe - 6/9/2007 7:16 AM
If I can find a copy of that thesis, I'll post a picture (it's OK Chris, I'm the copyright holder... plus I'm sure the copyright has more than expired since then...)
Sounds good! -
#201 by simonbp on 06 Sep, 2007 23:52
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antonioe - 5/9/2007 11:16 PM
Don Frazer had been pestered by some guys at the Navy's development center in Warmister PA that were fooling around with a concept called the "Aerocrane"... a combination BALLOON AND HELICOPTER if you think such as thing can be possible...
I can recall seeing such a design in Popular Science or Mechanics a few years ago; basically a few large helicopters bolted to the side of a rigid airship. I guess the idea hasn't died yet...
Simon
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#202 by simonbp on 07 Sep, 2007 00:05
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antonioe - 3/9/2007 3:34 PM
DWT calls it "Taurus II" but we are feverishly searching for a name (hey, guys, any ideas?)
Megatron. Seriously, how can you beat a name like that?
Astronomically, the constellations next to Taurus are Perseus, Aries, Cetus, Eridanus, Orion, Gemini, and Auriga. A few of those might be confusing (the Aries rocket), but how about Perseus? Rider of Pegasus, slayer of Medusa, and not the name of any rocket I know of...
Simon
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#203 by antonioe on 07 Sep, 2007 00:14
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simonbp - 6/9/2007 6:52 PM basically a few large helicopters bolted to the side of a rigid airship. I guess the idea hasn't died yet...Simon
No! Actually, that one was the Aerocrane's "competition" (don't laugh!) I'll try to find some time over the weekend to find a copy of my thesis and scan some graphics; I may even have a picture of the four H-53's attached to a rigid frame, two on each side of what apperas to be a very large blimp (I can't remember how it was called then... the PS article, which I remember, came much, much later)The basic thought behind both the aerocrane and the other concept what that what made dirigibles impractical was the ratio of the "controllable forces" to the "uncontrollable forces", the latter being buoyancy or wing lift and the former thrust or the ability to (quickly) vary lift. That ratio, which for a conventional airplane is in the "1 G" category - several G's for a fighter or aerobatic airplane - is something like 0.04 G's for the Hindenburg... (about 10 tons of variable thrust controlling a 250 ton lift balloon).
More later.-
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#204 by antonioe on 07 Sep, 2007 00:16
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Chris Bergin - 6/9/2007 4:37 PM I think everyone missed the above post due to the Proton going wrong last night.
That failure has a bunch of people here at Orbital scurrying around like stepped-on ants... the next commercial Proton flight is (was?) supposed to be ours...
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#205 by Jim on 07 Sep, 2007 01:13
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HELI-STAT HEAVY VERTICAL AIRLIFTER
http://www.piasecki.com/pa-97.htm
Downfall was that it used agricultural pipes for the structure -
#206 by antonioe on 07 Sep, 2007 01:49
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That's it!!! That the Aerocrane's "competition": The Helistat!! And now that my old neurones have been rattled, the Aerocrane was being promoted by a company called "All American Engineering" (eat your heart out, Karl Rove) from Wilmington, DE.
I found this, unfortunately without pictures.
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#207 by antonioe on 07 Sep, 2007 01:54
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While surfing the web for references to the "All American Engineering Aerocrane", I found this on the Cyclogyro. The large picture, as well as some of the photos, are identical to ones I found, back in 1974, in some obscure library after weeks of searching. God save the Internet and its creator, the Al of Gore!
The connection between the cyclogyro and the Aerocrane will become obvious as soon as I find my thesis and post a picture of the Aerocrane.
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#208 by meiza on 07 Sep, 2007 02:24
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Reminds me of certain vertical axis wind turbines as well as a harbor tug propulsion system.
But a paddle wheel style model aircraft has known, don't remember was it Dutch or Swedish perhaps, they had some fancy name for the wing. It was low speed high lift. -
#209 by vt_hokie on 07 Sep, 2007 04:00
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antonioe - 6/9/2007 9:54 PM
While surfing the web for references to the "All American Engineering Aerocrane", I found this on the Cyclogyro.
Wow, I don't think I've ever seen anything quite like that before! -
#210 by NotGncDude on 07 Sep, 2007 04:20
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antonioe - 6/9/2007 2:16 AM
hahaha. Surprised huh? Well I did have access when I was a student. I was just trying to answer the question "so what did a guy that ended up designing rockets do for a thesis?" so... well... so I could do something like it! I mean, don't we all here want to end up designing rockets?QuoteGncDude - 5/9/2007 7:52 PM Was one of your theses on a huge blimp? I think I may have looked at it.
Ohmygod!... at first I hadn't realized what you were talking about... you must have access to the Aero&Astro library at MIT... talk about a skeleton in the closet...
QuoteBack in 1975 I was looking aimlessly for a thesis topic (I had a Research Assistanship at Draper at the time).
Hey I have a question about that. Don't want you to get into any thorny subjects here so feel free not to answer but I am curious, would you still be working there if it weren't by Orbital? Is it a fun place to work?QuoteDon Frazer had been pestered by some guys at the Navy's development center in Warmister PA that were fooling around with a concept called the "Aerocrane"... a combination BALLOON AND HELICOPTER if you think such as thing can be possible... I guess a retired Navy captain (who, if my memory serves me right, had once CO'd an aircraft carrier - at the time that impressed the daylights out of me...) was pushing it - I think he worked for Dover or some similar outfit with lighter-than-air products.
Well, Don F. conned me into looking at the controls aspect of that beast, and I fell for it - no money in it, I still
had to work on the Shuttle program to pay for my R.A.True to the adage "he who can analyzes, he who cannot simulates"
Hah! I can relate to that Well, if good ole' Dick Hamming can say "The purpose of computation is insight, not numbers" then I think I'm fine.
I remember looking at the thesis and wondering "huh? and how is THIS related to a winged rocket?" I'm glad I asked this. I enjoyed your response very much. -
#211 by pippin on 07 Sep, 2007 08:12
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antonioe - 7/9/2007 3:54 AM
While surfing the web for references to the "All American Engineering Aerocrane", I found this on the Cyclogyro. The large picture, as well as some of the photos, are identical to ones I found, back in 1974, in some obscure library after weeks of searching. God save the Internet and its creator, the Al of Gore!
The connection between the cyclogyro and the Aerocrane will become obvious as soon as I find my thesis and post a picture of the Aerocrane.
I love the phrase "Very few prototypes were built, and those that were constructed were completely unsuccessful." -
#212 by antonioe on 07 Sep, 2007 11:52
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GncDude - 6/9/2007 11:20 PM
Quoteantonioe - 6/9/2007 2:16 AM
Hey I have a question about that. Don't want you to get into any thorny subjects here so feel free not to answer but I am curious, would you still be working there if it weren't by Orbital? Is it a fun place to work?Back in 1975 I was looking aimlessly for a thesis topic (I had a Research Assistanship at Draper at the time).
I may have already answered that question... I owe A LOT to Draper Lab. I grew up professionally there - talk about a REAL "Alma Mater"! I worked alongside (well, a few respectful steps behind) giants like Dick Battin and Hal Lanning and Ted Edelbaum. I actually met Charles Stark Draper in person, touched his green Morgan with the license plate "MIT-IL". Touched the Apollo Guidance Computer that, in a world of 400 hours MTBF computers was operating continuously and without a single failure 24/7 since I-don't-know-when (something like 1965... and this was 1971!)... I was an RA at Draper from 1972 to 1978, then became a full "member of the technical staff".
But by 1980, having been at CSDL for about 18 months, I was getting ants in my pants. Interviewed with a 400-person "consulting" outfit in Reading MA called "The Analytical Sciences Corporation" and with the old Grumman Aircraft in Bethpage, Long Island for work on a funny swept-forward research aircraft called the "X-29". Out of the blue came an offer from the Department itself for an Assistant Professorship (Jack Kerrebrock made me the offer; he mentioned the salary and when I said "of course I accept" he audibly drew a deep breath. It was about 20% less than what I was making at Draper). It was six years later, AFTER MIT decided NOT to give me tenure that I got the call from DWT. Funny, had I accepted the offers from either TASC or Grumman, today I would have ended working for the same company...
But back to Draper. I loved the place, still do. The ultimate Ivory Tower, and I say that with the utmost respect and admiration. Eli Gai and I were classmates. Vince Vitto was my "boss" thirty years later at the Naval Studies Board of the National Academy.
I was shocked when Orbital became bigger than Draper. Would I have gone back to Draper? Very probably yes. On the other hand, every two months or so I actually have a nightmare about going back to MIT and to the dog-eat-dog competitive world of untenured junior faculty, and having to prepare for classes and grade homework and find money and research grants, find summer and consulting jobs to make up for a meager salary with three young kinds to feed and clothe, and publish, publish or perish... And I wake up in a sweat, and I thank the rising dawn for being alive.
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#213 by antonioe on 07 Sep, 2007 12:14
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simonbp - 6/9/2007 7:05 PM
Astronomically, the constellations next to Taurus are Perseus, Aries, Cetus, Eridanus, Orion, Gemini, and Auriga. A few of those might be confusing (the Aries rocket), but how about Perseus? Rider of Pegasus, slayer of Medusa, and not the name of any rocket I know of... Simon
How can a Pegasus fan reject Perseus?... it has fewer than four syllables, has not been used, has nothing to do with the sea... unfortunately, its pronounciation is a bit awkward.
Now, Auriga! The chariot! hmm... let me try it on DWT...
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#214 by Skyrocket on 07 Sep, 2007 12:23
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antonioe - 7/9/2007 2:14 PM
Quotesimonbp - 6/9/2007 7:05 PM
Astronomically, the constellations next to Taurus are Perseus, Aries, Cetus, Eridanus, Orion, Gemini, and Auriga. A few of those might be confusing (the Aries rocket), but how about Perseus? Rider of Pegasus, slayer of Medusa, and not the name of any rocket I know of... Simon
How can a Pegasus fan reject Perseus?... it has fewer than four syllables, has not been used, has nothing to do with the sea... unfortunately, its pronounciation is a bit awkward.
Now, Auriga! The chariot! hmm... let me try it on DWT...
Just a little bit of nitpicking: Perseus was not the rider of Pegasus in greek mythology (that imagination was created much later by renaissance artists). In greek mythology the rider of Pegasus was Bellerophon.
But in a way Perseus created Pegasus, as Pegasus was born from the blood of the Medusa, which was beheaded by Perseus.
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#215 by pippin on 07 Sep, 2007 13:21
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Medusa actually would make a good name for a rocket family....
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#216 by edkyle99 on 10 Sep, 2007 20:27
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CFE - 3/9/2007 12:11 AM
Space News also claims that the engine will be an NK-33 (presumably two or three.)
It looks like someone may be having a fire sale on a few spare NK-33 (AJ26) engines before too long.
http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/story.jsp?id=news/rocketplane091007.xml&headline=RpK's%20COTS%20Contract%20Terminated%20&channel=space
Two of those on a first stage, plus one high-altitude NK-43 version (throttled down) on a second stage, would roughly duplicate the performance of a Delta 7920. A third stage sized something like the Delta II second stage, or even smaller, could allow duplication of Delta 7925 GTO performance. That's one way to do it, FWIW.
- Ed Kyle -
#217 by meiza on 10 Sep, 2007 23:55
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And since it's for a low flight rate, those engines will last for a while, though what happens when you run out?
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#218 by antonioe on 11 Sep, 2007 00:39
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edkyle99 - 10/9/2007 3:27 PM
QuoteCFE - 3/9/2007 12:11 AM Space News also claims that the engine will be an NK-33 (presumably two or three.)
It looks like someone may be having a fire sale on a few spare NK-33 (AJ26) engines before too long. http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/story.jsp?id=news/rocketplane091007.xml&headline=RpK's%20COTS%20Contract%20Terminated%20&channel=space Two of those on a first stage, plus one high-altitude NK-43 version (throttled down) on a second stage, would roughly duplicate the performance of a Delta 7920. A third stage sized something like the Delta II second stage, or even smaller, could allow duplication of Delta 7925 GTO performance. That's one way to do it, FWIW. - Ed KyleQuotemeiza - 10/9/2007 6:55 PM And since it's for a low flight rate, those engines will last for a while, though what happens when you run out?
Those are two excellent ideas; how many NK-33/AJ-26's would you use on the first stage? How much do you think setting up a production line in the US would cost (considering they are 1970's technology, unlike the RD's)? How long would it take to certify a U.S.-produced NK-33? Would you do it in one step, or would you progressively "Americanize" the current supply of NK-33's? (Note: there are about 40 NK-33's in-country and another 30 full sets of parts or so in Samara, not counting the NK-43's)
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#219 by edkyle99 on 11 Sep, 2007 02:41
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antonioe - 10/9/2007 7:39 PM
Quoteedkyle99 - 10/9/2007 3:27 PM
QuoteCFE - 3/9/2007 12:11 AM Space News also claims that the engine will be an NK-33 (presumably two or three.)
It looks like someone may be having a fire sale on a few spare NK-33 (AJ26) engines before too long. http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/story.jsp?id=news/rocketplane091007.xml&headline=RpK's%20COTS%20Contract%20Terminated%20&channel=space Two of those on a first stage, plus one high-altitude NK-43 version (throttled down) on a second stage, would roughly duplicate the performance of a Delta 7920. A third stage sized something like the Delta II second stage, or even smaller, could allow duplication of Delta 7925 GTO performance. That's one way to do it, FWIW. - Ed KyleQuotemeiza - 10/9/2007 6:55 PM And since it's for a low flight rate, those engines will last for a while, though what happens when you run out?
Those are two excellent ideas; how many NK-33/AJ-26's would you use on the first stage? How much do you think setting up a production line in the US would cost (considering they are 1970's technology, unlike the RD's)? How long would it take to certify a U.S.-produced NK-33? Would you do it in one step, or would you progressively "Americanize" the current supply of NK-33's? (Note: there are about 40 NK-33's in-country and another 30 full sets of parts or so in Samara, not counting the NK-43's)
I would try really, really hard to use just two NK-33s on the first stage, to minimize costs, but I'm not sure I would be able to pull it off. One problem with an all-liquid design of this type is that the second stage would be a little on the light side to be powered by an NK-43. I suppose that I'm thinking of something that would act like a souped up Titan II, except with LOX/kerosene. It would also be possible, I would guess, to use solid upper stages (bits and pieces of Taurus/Pegasus, for example) but that might push the first stage toward three NK-33s (guessing without calculating on the latter thought).
I wouldn't dare begin to guess at the costs. Aerojet had apparently done some preliminary work toward "Americanizing" the engine, but that was a dozen years ago. But what alternatives to NK-33 would be available? I suppose that the lowest cost option would be to use an existing engine that was in full production for use on an already existing launch vehicle or missile system, but I'm having trouble thinking where one could find such an engine for the first stage. On the other hand, this line of thinking makes the use of existing solid motors for the upper stages seem like a sensible idea.
- Ed Kyle
