Author Topic: Building a Russian S-IC  (Read 7570 times)

Offline Александр Гвидевич

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Building a Russian S-IC
« on: 12/12/2015 07:26 AM »
As you know, Russia wants to go to the moon. Apollo had to develop a lot of new engines, increasing development costs. Russia can not afford it.

RD-180 is at sea level thrust 3.83 MN, compared to 6.77 MN US F-1 engine. But RD-180 has a specific impulse, 311 seconds compared with 263 seconds for F-1.

I am not an expert mathematician, but there are geniuses on the site. If Russians built an S-IC stage, would modern weight saving techniques and RD-180 better specific impulse mean five RD-180s would suffice to achieve the same performance as original S-IC?
« Last Edit: 12/12/2015 07:27 AM by Александр Гвидевич »

Offline fregate

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Re: Building a Russian S-IC
« Reply #1 on: 12/12/2015 08:26 AM »
Alexander, due to budget constraints Roscosmos decided not to create a Super Heavy Launch Vehicle (similar to Saturn-V, N-1 or Energia). Instead Russian Manned Lunar architecture is based on 4 launch of Angara-A5V Launch vehicles.
BTW RD-180 is ruffly a half of RD-171M engine that is more powerful than F-1  :)   
   
« Last Edit: 12/12/2015 08:27 AM by fregate »
"Selene, the Moon. Selenginsk, an old town in Siberia: moon-rocket  town" Vladimir Nabokov

Offline edkyle99

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Re: Building a Russian S-IC
« Reply #2 on: 12/12/2015 01:15 PM »
Russia is set when it comes to high thrust, highly efficient hydrocarbon booster propulsion.  What it needs is highly reliable hydrogen/oxygen upper stage propulsion.  F-1 was an impressive beast, but the key to Saturn V success was J-2, S-II, and S-IVB.  The performance of the high energy upper stages determine how heavy the launch vehicle needs to be, which determines how much liftoff thrust is needed!

 - Ed Kyle
« Last Edit: 12/12/2015 01:20 PM by edkyle99 »

Offline Dmitry_V_home

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Re: Building a Russian S-IC
« Reply #3 on: 12/12/2015 01:31 PM »
If to dream up, it is possible to think up something similar. :)
On the first stage there are 4 RD-171M engines or eight RD-180.

Offline Space Invaders

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Re: Building a Russian S-IC
« Reply #4 on: 12/12/2015 01:38 PM »
If to dream up, it is possible to think up something similar. :)
On the first stage there are 4 RD-171M engines or eight RD-180.
Do we have an idea of how much time and money it would cost to bring the RD-171 back into production?

Offline edkyle99

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Re: Building a Russian S-IC
« Reply #5 on: 12/12/2015 04:22 PM »
I am not an expert mathematician, but there are geniuses on the site. If Russians built an S-IC stage, would modern weight saving techniques and RD-180 better specific impulse mean five RD-180s would suffice to achieve the same performance as original S-IC?
Russia wouldn't have to build an S-IC if it was able to exploit it and the USSRs earlier LH2/LOX engine developments.  The key would be reviving RD-0120 for second stage propulsion.  RD-0146, being developed for Angara, could then be clustered to power a third stage.  These highly efficient upper stages would vastly reduce the size of the first stage compared to S-IC - it might gross half as much weight.  The rocket might only need 12 RD-191 engines (or three RD-171M engines).  The second stage would be maybe 25% bigger than Saturn V's S-II stage if powered by four RD-0129 engines (assuming they could be air-started). 

Here's one guesstimate model to put 45 tonnes to TLI. 

                  Mp/GLOW
Stage 1:  921/1001 tonnes  12xRD191   T=2,352 tonnes   ISPavg = 328.3 sec
Stage 2:  576/640 tonnes    4xRD-0120    T=800 tonnes   ISP = 455 sec
Stage 3:  101/115 tonnes    8xRD-0146     T=80 tonnes    ISP = 461 sec
GLOW = 1806 tonnes
PL = 45 tonnes
LAS - 5 tonnes
DeltaV = 12,500 m/s

This would be a beautiful, but very expensive, rocket.

 - Ed Kyle

« Last Edit: 12/12/2015 09:29 PM by edkyle99 »

Offline ZachS09

Re: Building a Russian S-IC
« Reply #6 on: 12/12/2015 04:42 PM »
I agree; it could be the next-generation N1 rocket.
Because the Falcon Heavy Test Flight was successful, it has inspired thousands of people to consider changing the future of space travel.

Offline Dmitry_V_home

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Re: Building a Russian S-IC
« Reply #7 on: 12/12/2015 06:12 PM »
Do we have an idea of how much time and money it would cost to bring the RD-171 back into production?

As far as we know, production RD-171M isn't stopped yet. It will be much more difficult to restore production RD0120. However according to the available information about 80% of production equipment for RD0120 are kept.

Offline Space Invaders

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Re: Building a Russian S-IC
« Reply #8 on: 12/13/2015 06:49 PM »
As far as we know, production RD-171M isn't stopped yet. It will be much more difficult to restore production RD0120. However according to the available information about 80% of production equipment for RD0120 are kept.
I was under the impression no more Zenit hardware is being manufactured.

Offline Lars-J

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Re: Building a Russian S-IC
« Reply #9 on: 12/14/2015 10:26 PM »
As far as we know, production RD-171M isn't stopped yet. It will be much more difficult to restore production RD0120. However according to the available information about 80% of production equipment for RD0120 are kept.
I was under the impression no more Zenit hardware is being manufactured.

Perhaps, but RD-180 and RD-191 are in production, and it would be relatively trivial to create a modernized RD-17X based on the RD-180/191.

Offline Space Invaders

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Re: Building a Russian S-IC
« Reply #10 on: 12/15/2015 10:33 AM »
Perhaps, but RD-180 and RD-191 are in production, and it would be relatively trivial to create a modernized RD-17X based on the RD-180/191.
Good. It would be a pity if RD-170 manufacturing capacity were lost and we had to reinvent the wheel the next time we need an 8 MN-class liquid engine.

Offline asmi

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Re: Building a Russian S-IC
« Reply #11 on: 12/15/2015 12:33 PM »
I've heard that Energomash still does some work on RD-175 engine on their own dime, which is 1000 mt class engine - essentially a "jacked up" version of RD-171M. Maybe it will find some use in the future.

Offline Prettz

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Re: Building a Russian S-IC
« Reply #12 on: 12/15/2015 03:20 PM »
It would require a lot of engines, but if you added restart capability to the RD-191 you could have a VTOL S-IC. I've always liked that idea.

Offline fregate

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Re: Building a Russian S-IC
« Reply #13 on: 12/16/2015 04:20 AM »
I am not an expert mathematician, but there are geniuses on the site. If Russians built an S-IC stage, would modern weight saving techniques and RD-180 better specific impulse mean five RD-180s would suffice to achieve the same performance as original S-IC?
Russia wouldn't have to build an S-IC if it was able to exploit it and the USSRs earlier LH2/LOX engine developments.  The key would be reviving RD-0120 for second stage propulsion.  RD-0146, being developed for Angara, could then be clustered to power a third stage.  These highly efficient upper stages would vastly reduce the size of the first stage compared to S-IC - it might gross half as much weight.  The rocket might only need 12 RD-191 engines (or three RD-171M engines).  The second stage would be maybe 25% bigger than Saturn V's S-II stage if powered by four RD-0129 engines (assuming they could be air-started). 

Here's one guesstimate model to put 45 tonnes to TLI. 

                  Mp/GLOW
Stage 1:  921/1001 tonnes  12xRD191   T=2,352 tonnes   ISPavg = 328.3 sec
Stage 2:  576/640 tonnes    4xRD-0120    T=800 tonnes   ISP = 455 sec
Stage 3:  101/115 tonnes    8xRD-0146     T=80 tonnes    ISP = 461 sec
GLOW = 1806 tonnes
PL = 45 tonnes
LAS - 5 tonnes
DeltaV = 12,500 m/s

This would be a beautiful, but very expensive, rocket.

 - Ed Kyle


Ed, KBKhA aslo designed HydroLOX RD-0150 with much bigger thrust than RD-0146, so there is no need for cluster of 8 engines on Stage III
"Selene, the Moon. Selenginsk, an old town in Siberia: moon-rocket  town" Vladimir Nabokov

Offline Space Invaders

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Re: Building a Russian S-IC
« Reply #14 on: 12/16/2015 11:57 AM »
I've heard that Energomash still does some work on RD-175 engine on their own dime, which is 1000 mt class engine - essentially a "jacked up" version of RD-171M. Maybe it will find some use in the future.
Combined with modern manufacturing techniques and lighter materials, an RD-171M-powered first stage could replace the Proton-M first stage with a far simpler (and less toxic) design.

It would lack engine-out capability, but Atlas V's stellar record proves that's not a problem if you have a fine engine.

Replacing the Proton first stage with an RD-171M-powered one would also spread out the overhead costs of RD-171-M over many more launches than if this engine were used for a SHLV alone.
« Last Edit: 12/16/2015 12:02 PM by Space Invaders »

Offline baldusi

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Re: Building a Russian S-IC
« Reply #15 on: 12/16/2015 04:31 PM »
As far as we know, production RD-171M isn't stopped yet. It will be much more difficult to restore production RD0120. However according to the available information about 80% of production equipment for RD0120 are kept.
I was under the impression no more Zenit hardware is being manufactured.

Perhaps, but RD-180 and RD-191 are in production, and it would be relatively trivial to create a modernized RD-17X based on the RD-180/191.
It has already happened. The current Zenits have an RD-171M, which was a retrofit of the RD-180's improvements to the RD-171 that saved 300kg of dry mass. The RD-191 has some further improvements. It will be produced in Omsk, but for now, both Atlas V and Angara use engines built in-house by Energomash. So the manufacturing base capabilities will stay open at least to 2020. With ULA's move to Vulcan and Angara's production moved to Omsk, Energomash needs something by 2021/2 to keep the line busy.
« Last Edit: 12/16/2015 04:32 PM by baldusi »

Offline Dmitry_V_home

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Re: Building a Russian S-IC
« Reply #16 on: 12/17/2015 04:07 PM »
Ed, KBKhA aslo designed HydroLOX RD-0150 with much bigger thrust than RD-0146, so there is no need for cluster of 8 engines on Stage III

I counted insert on an intermediate orbit of-700x145 km with an inclination 51,8 deg. For this purpose it is enough to have at the second stage two upgraded RD0120 engines, and at the third stage - four RD0146.

Offline Dmitry_V_home

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Re: Building a Russian S-IC
« Reply #17 on: 12/17/2015 06:51 PM »

It has already happened. The current Zenits have an RD-171M, which was a retrofit of the RD-180's improvements to the RD-171 that saved 300kg of dry mass. The RD-191 has some further improvements. It will be produced in Omsk, but for now, both Atlas V and Angara use engines built in-house by Energomash. So the manufacturing base capabilities will stay open at least to 2020. With ULA's move to Vulcan and Angara's production moved to Omsk, Energomash needs something by 2021/2 to keep the line busy.

Some large plants participate in production of the RD-191 engine: Metallist-Samara plant in Samara (chamber), the Voronezh mechanical plant in Voronezh (chamber), Proton-PM Plant in Perm (turbopump). Final assembly of the engine is conducted in "Energomash". In the future assembly of RD-191 it is planned to transfer in "Proton-PM".

Offline baldusi

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Re: Building a Russian S-IC
« Reply #18 on: 12/17/2015 07:46 PM »

It has already happened. The current Zenits have an RD-171M, which was a retrofit of the RD-180's improvements to the RD-171 that saved 300kg of dry mass. The RD-191 has some further improvements. It will be produced in Omsk, but for now, both Atlas V and Angara use engines built in-house by Energomash. So the manufacturing base capabilities will stay open at least to 2020. With ULA's move to Vulcan and Angara's production moved to Omsk, Energomash needs something by 2021/2 to keep the line busy.

Some large plants participate in production of the RD-191 engine: Metallist-Samara plant in Samara (chamber), the Voronezh mechanical plant in Voronezh (chamber), Proton-PM Plant in Perm (turbopump). Final assembly of the engine is conducted in "Energomash". In the future assembly of RD-191 it is planned to transfer in "Proton-PM".
Yes, I was mistaken. Angara's will move to PM Polyot in Omsk and RD-191 will be fully built at Perm, right?

Offline Space Invaders

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Re: Building a Russian S-IC
« Reply #19 on: 12/18/2015 08:18 AM »
It has already happened. The current Zenits have an RD-171M, which was a retrofit of the RD-180's improvements to the RD-171 that saved 300kg of dry mass.
Zenits are out of production, though.

http://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2015/12/zenit-swansong-elektro-l-launch/

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