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#640 by Notsosureofit on 23 Dec, 2015 14:03
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There is always the WIKI to read .... http://emdrive.wiki/Main_Page
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#641 by Rodal on 23 Dec, 2015 14:06
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........
Not sure if my knowledge of English has captured all the required finesse, but it is a bit harsh to link the increase in new EM-drive speculations with the rfmwguy's moderation...
All these arguments were previously discussed mathematically.
This was before rfmwguy was moderating these threads and a number of new posters started to post these same old arguments that have been previously addressed.
If you want to re-open these discussions, because you have a mathematical proposal that has not been previously discussed, you will need to show your new equations.
......
I do not think there is any proven correlation between the 2...an unfortunate coincidence, maybe?
What you could ask from a moderator however, is to keep a more neutral ground in the discussions. rfmwguy clearly has an opinion on things that could, on the long run, compromise the expected neutrality of a moderator. But that is, in the first place, his task to moderate him selves.
But as I perceive it, I don't think he made any grave errors so far...
If you feel he's stepping a bit out of his role as moderator, it might just be enough to remind him of his function, no?
There should be room for both hardcore physics discussions as well for some more philosophical ideas, although admittedly, the latter are considerably harder to moderate due to their more emotional nature.
Placing an event in time, to help narrow the search for the subject matter with respect to an arbitrarily chosen time event does not entail that somebody is implying the previous event is correlated with the arbitrarily chosen later time event (chosen to be able to narrow the search, by eliminating the later threads).
If in order to help somebody search for comment at time t1 one states that t1 happened before Ms. (or Mr.) so-and-so became Moderator at time t2, that does not mean that the new Moderator is responsible for what happened at time t1 or that the new Moderator is responsible for the fact that whatever happened at time t1 is not happening anymore at time t2.
In this case, my take on the matter of conservation of energy discussion having come to an end is simply that the subject matter was covered so thoroughly and elegantly by Frobnicat, DeltaMass and WarpTech that nothing more remained to be said. The fact that rfmwguy is now moderating the threads is completely inconsequential to these conservation of energy discussions and that they came to an end, or that WarpTech and DeltaMass are not presently actively posting in these threads.
Notsosureofit had a great poem on the matter of conservation of momentum/energy in the EM Drive (and no unfortunately I cannot provide a link to it, as I don't recall where it is and the NSF search system is horrible. Although I would very much enjoy reading that poem again).
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#642 by Notsosureofit on 23 Dec, 2015 14:58
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Just for chuckles: Merry Holidays !
----------------------------------------------------
A FABLE FOR SOME OTHER TIME
Chapter 1.
In a quiet inertial frame between galaxies far, far away, Turtle and Rabbit (T&R Space Movers, LLC)
were floating in their space transport, a refurbished shipping container carrying recycled
bricks from the remains of (the now sunken) New York City.
Rabbit said, "Turtle, I want to to aim my Hubble telescope (bought cheap at the NASA bankrupcy
auction) at that pretty star over there. What say I throw some bricks from one corner of the
ship to get this thing rotating into position."
"Not so fast", said Turtle. (her favorite expression) "If you do that, you'll have to throw more
bricks in the opposite direction when you want it to stop. Besides, I don't want you to
throwing our cargo overboard whenever you feel like it."
"Then how else can I point my telescope ?" said Rabbit.
"Well, I have this little gadget...." said Turtle.
"That's your antique disk drive" said Rabbit, "How is that supposed to help me turn the ship?"
Turtle settled in for a bit, "I can use this thing to store energy in a spinning disk. It
doesn't lose very much and I can always input a certain amount of power to overcome those losses
and maintain a given angular frequency and by extension, a given angular momentum."
"Huh ?" said Rabbit, "I'm an oscillator guy, myself. You know, back and forth, fast!"
"Ok, ok" says Turtle, "Think of the atoms in the spinning disk as undergoing oscillation in each
of two dimensions, x and y, at the same frequency and 90 degrees apart in phase. Forget about z and t for the moment."
Rabbit thinks for a moment and says, "Mmmm, well I guess the energy stored would be the amount
of power you have to be putting in times the Q of the oscillator."
"Right!" says Turtle, " And the amount of stored energy determines the rate at which the ship
will rotate in the opposite direction to the disk. When you stop the disk, you stop the ship.
You've changed your frame of reference to the "fixed" stars, all due to the Conservation of
Angular Momentum."
"Oh goody!" says Rabbit, "Now I can get a good look at that star."
Chapter 2.
Bye n' bye, as Turtle was trying to listen to her favorite recording,"A Window in Time, Sergei
Rachmaninoff performs his solo piano works", she could not help but notice that Rabbit was
becoming increasingly frustrated over at his telescope.
"What seems to be the matter this time?", she asked.
"It's this star! It's too red! I really didn't want to ask, but can I throw some bricks out
the back and shorten those stellar wavelengths a bit?"
Turtle hated to repeat herself, "No! We've been over this. I don't want you wasting our bricks!"
"But I really want to be able to see more of that star." said Rabbit, "Isn't there anything else
I could do ?"
"Well, I have this little gadget...." said Turtle.
"Oh no, not this time." said Rabbit, "Your little trick with the disk worked to rotate the ship,
and frustratingly slow at that, but I need to make it move! You know, the whole displacement,
velocity, acceleration bit."
"Calm down." said Turtle, "It really isn't that much different. You already know that
acceleration is just a rotation that includes t as one of the two axes."
"But, but ...." stammered Rabbit.
"And, you already know that if we make an oscillator in those two dimensions we can store an
amount of energy like power times Q."
"Yeah, but ...." continued Rabbit.
"And, you already know that the ship will continue to accelerate as long as we maintain that
stored energy in the oscillator." said Turtle.
"Now just a carrot pickin' minute here." said Rabbit, "That's just an old tin flowerpot from the
trash, a fryin' pan lid and parts from the cooker in the galley! It doesn't even have a disk!"
Turtle smiled, "We don't need the disk. We can use the standing electro-magnetic waves and the
charged particles in the walls as the pair of oscillators for the two axes."
"How's that again ?" said Rabbit "Don't we need that 90 degree phase shift as well?"
"Why do you think that's a flower pot rather than one of those big cans of veggies you're so
fond of ? The electrons and photons are doing a little dance together, so all we need to do is
get them a bit behind or ahead. We don't have to have exactly 90 degrees, but that would be
best"
"You really believe this will work ?" said Rabbit.
"I think it will." said Turtle, putting on her best smile, "but I'm not so sure of it." -
#643 by Paul451 on 23 Dec, 2015 15:11
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You know, some of these Meep simulations are getting ridiculous. -
#644 by rfmwguy on 23 Dec, 2015 15:23
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Thank you for this post. When I volunteered to take over as Moderator, I told Chris I would stop posting and take more of a behind-the-scenes roll. He insisted that I continue posting as usual.........
Not sure if my knowledge of English has captured all the required finesse, but it is a bit harsh to link the increase in new EM-drive speculations with the rfmwguy's moderation...
All these arguments were previously discussed mathematically.
This was before rfmwguy was moderating these threads and a number of new posters started to post these same old arguments that have been previously addressed.
If you want to re-open these discussions, because you have a mathematical proposal that has not been previously discussed, you will need to show your new equations.
......
I do not think there is any proven correlation between the 2...an unfortunate coincidence, maybe?
What you could ask from a moderator however, is to keep a more neutral ground in the discussions. rfmwguy clearly has an opinion on things that could, on the long run, compromise the expected neutrality of a moderator. But that is, in the first place, his task to moderate him selves.
But as I perceive it, I don't think he made any grave errors so far...
If you feel he's stepping a bit out of his role as moderator, it might just be enough to remind him of his function, no?
There should be room for both hardcore physics discussions as well for some more philosophical ideas, although admittedly, the latter are considerably harder to moderate due to their more emotional nature.
Generally speaking, while I believe I saw something in my emdrive observation/tests in September, I will not moderate based on one side or the other. I don't modify other's posts. I also will not delete them unless they are uncivil or totally unrelated to this topic (per NSF forum rules). I think I've removed 1 post that was a copy and paste here from another forum relating to something other than the emdrive.
I've really had little moderation to do here compared to some of the other NSF threads. Don't think we give ourselves enough credit in that regard. -
#645 by rfmwguy on 23 Dec, 2015 15:28
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Just for chuckles: Merry Holidays !
Lol, always good to have a laugh now and again, especially when the topic can be contentious and tedious!
----------------------------------------------------
(...)
"I think it will." said Turtle, putting on her best smile, "but I'm not so sure of it."
Will be traveling for the next several days, please carry on with your self-moderation modes...everyone's done a great job. Cheers and safe travels! -
#646 by OnlyMe on 23 Dec, 2015 15:50
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There are a lot of theoretical discussions considering radiation pressure and photon momentum.
While these effects are real, their forces are many orders of magnitude too small to be significant.
.....
Most of the speculation that I have seen, that does not stray too far into the realm of QV-VP mechanics or altering spacetime, has been treating what happens to resonance and microwaves in a frustum, in a manner where the material of the walls remains essentially static, aside from some expansion due to thermal effects. I don't believe that is realistic, since it cannot be denied that the frustum walls move from a state of relative rest, to a state of resonance with the introduced microwaves or at least near resonance. Once microwaves begin to resonate inside of the frustum, the characteristics and boundary conditions, of the frustum walls, that govern the interaction between the frustum walls and the resonant microwaves, change.., and that may even be a dynamic process that itself goes through cycles... So to the statement quoted above...
Under normal conditions this is true. Normally the transfer of momentum between EM radiation and matter is very inefficient. What strikes me as one possibility, altering that inefficient interaction, is an adaptation of one of the mechanisms incorporated in Bernard Haisch's theory of inertia. (This work/theory is developed over a number of papers and a period of perhaps even decades, a starting point for anyone interested is, 1994 Inertia as a zero-point-field Lorentz force - Haisch, Reuda & Puthoff - http://www.calphysics.org/articles/PRA94.pdf and 1998 Advances in the Proposed Electromagnetic Zero-Point Field Theory of Inertia, Haisch, Reuda & Puthoff - http://arxiv.org/abs/physics/9807023v2)... And yes, there is a very large gap between the vacuum interaction of a charged fundamental particle and the QV or zero-point field (ZPF) as referenced in this work and the dynamics of a frustum,, and yet potentially some very similar conditions.
The basic assertion in his theory is that the zitterbewgun motion of all fundamental particles, referred to in most of his work as partons, have a corresponding very high frequency EM spectrum of the ZPF that they interact with, in a self regenerating cycle, each sustained by the other (the zitterbewgun motion and the EM component of the ZPF) and that the ZPF remains isotropic with respect to the parton, except in the case of acceleration... But the whole of his theory is not important here and is not really provable at present since the EM spectrum he asserts is present in the ZPF background interacts only with the patrons, not with whole atoms. So there is no way to build an instrument to test for and detect any EM radiation at the suggested frequencies.
The important part is that Haisch et. al. have presented a argument, which even absent proof supports the idea, that when the resonant frequency of the zitterbewgun motion of a particle, matches the frequency of the EM spectrum it is interacting with, the interaction is confined solely to a mutually regenerating exchange of momentum.
Which leads to a situation which might mirror the dynamics inside of a frustum in resonance with the introduced microwaves. At that portion of the frustum walls where the resonance is greatest, some portion of the atoms at the surface of the frustum wall should begin to resonate with the microwaves, which if looked at from the perspective of the theoretical work of Haisch, should increase the efficiency of the transfer of momentum, in that area of the frustum.., and possibly be the mechanism resulting in thrust.
Since the surface atom which would be resonating with and directly interactioning in the transfer of momentum from the microwaves to the frustum, are also directly interacting with nearby atoms in the frustum wall, the kinetic energy associated with the transferred momentum would be rapidly randomized as added heat, while the momentum itself should be transferred through the frustum wall in a generally conical manner and more or less at 90 degrees to the initial transfer. Heat dissipates through a conductor in a far more general manner than momentum, at quantum to atomic scales.
The point is, that if Haisch is correct in how he models the interaction between resonating particles and EM radiation, resulting in a transfer of momentum only, is sound, even should his theory of inertia be incorrect, it could explain how the shape of the frustum and its interaction with the resonating microwaves, alters the boundary conditions of the cavity walls in an anisotropic manner and creates a bias in how momentum is transferred between the microwaves and the frustum.
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#647 by Rodal on 23 Dec, 2015 16:04
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There are a lot of theoretical discussions considering radiation pressure and photon momentum.
While these effects are real, their forces are many orders of magnitude too small to be significant.
.....
Most of the speculation that I have seen, that does not stray too far into the realm of QV-VP mechanics or altering spacetime, has been treating what happens to resonance and microwaves in a frustum, in a manner where the material of the walls remains essentially static, aside from some expansion due to thermal effects. I don't believe that is realistic, since it cannot be denied that the frustum walls move from a state of relative rest, to a state of resonance with the introduced microwaves or at least near resonance. Once microwaves begin to resonate inside of the frustum, the characteristics and boundary conditions, of the frustum walls, that govern the interaction between the frustum walls and the resonant microwaves, change.., and that may even be a dynamic process that itself goes through cycles... So to the statement quoted above...
Under normal conditions this is true. Normally the transfer of momentum between EM radiation and matter is very inefficient. What strikes me as one possibility, altering that inefficient interaction, is an adaptation of one of the mechanisms incorporated in Bernard Haisch's theory of inertia. (This work/theory is developed over a number of papers and a period of perhaps even decades, a starting point for anyone interested is, 1994 Inertia as a zero-point-field Lorentz force - Haisch, Reuda & Puthoff - http://www.calphysics.org/articles/PRA94.pdf and 1998 Advances in the Proposed Electromagnetic Zero-Point Field Theory of Inertia, Haisch, Reuda & Puthoff - http://arxiv.org/abs/physics/9807023v2)... And yes, there is a very large gap between the vacuum interaction of a charged fundamental particle and the QV or zero-point field (ZPF) as referenced in this work and the dynamics of a frustum,, and yet potentially some very similar conditions.
The basic assertion in his theory is that the zitterbewgun motion of all fundamental particles, referred to in most of his work as partons, have a corresponding very high frequency EM spectrum of the ZPF that they interact with, in a self regenerating cycle, each sustained by the other (the zitterbewgun motion and the EM component of the ZPF) and that the ZPF remains isotropic with respect to the parton, except in the case of acceleration... But the whole of his theory is not important here and is not really provable at present since the EM spectrum he asserts is present in the ZPF background interacts only with the patrons, not with whole atoms. So there is no way to build an instrument to test for and detect any EM radiation at the suggested frequencies.
The important part is that Haisch et. al. have presented a argument, which even absent proof supports the idea, that when the resonant frequency of the zitterbewgun motion of a particle, matches the frequency of the EM spectrum it is interacting with, the interaction is confined solely to a mutually regenerating exchange of momentum.
Which leads to a situation which might mirror the dynamics inside of a frustum in resonance with the introduced microwaves. At that portion of the frustum walls where the resonance is greatest, some portion of the atoms at the surface of the frustum wall should begin to resonate with the microwaves, which if looked at from the perspective of the theoretical work of Haisch, should increase the efficiency of the transfer of momentum, in that area of the frustum.., and possibly be the mechanism resulting in thrust.
Since the surface atom which would be resonating with and directly interactioning in the transfer of momentum from the microwaves to the frustum, are also directly interacting with nearby atoms in the frustum wall, the kinetic energy associated with the transferred momentum would be rapidly randomized as added heat, while the momentum itself should be transferred through the frustum wall in a generally conical manner and more or less at 90 degrees to the initial transfer. Heat dissipates through a conductor in a far more general manner than momentum, at quantum to atomic scales.
The point is, that if Haisch is correct in how he models the interaction between resonating particles and EM radiation resulting in a transfer of momentum only is sound, even should his theory of inertia be incorrect, it could explain how the shape of the frustum and its interaction with the resonating microwaves, alters the boundary conditions of the cavity walls in an anisotropic manner and creates a bias in how momentum is transferred between the microwaves and the frustum.
Five quick comments:
1) From a continuous mechanics point of view it is easy to show that the frequency of the microwave resonance (GHz) is so high, that taking into account the material properties and thickness of the walls of the EM Drive cavity, that any structural mechanics resonance amplitude at this frequency entails an amplitude of vibration response so small as to be completely negligible (from a continuum mechanics viewpoint).
2) Leaving the Continuum Mechanics regime, and now dealing with the particle mechanics regime addressed in the post above (for example the zitterbewgun motion of a particle) Bernard Haisch's theory of inertia has been discussed in previous threads, including objections vis-a-vis experimental data. (No, I am not going to perform a search to find those discussions
, I am just making a statement in case anybody is interested in looking for such discussions).
3) It is straightforward to show that the thermal expansion of the cavity walls due to induction heating from the magnetic field comprises orders of magnitude greater displacement than the ones comprised by points 1 & 2 above. These thermal expansion effects (affecting the natural frequency of the cavity and hence moving the frequency at which maximum Q response takes place as the temperature increases) have been mathematically analyzed in previous threads vis-a-vis NASA's experimental measurements.
4) I wrote an article showing that thermal buckling of the EM Drive end-plate was possible, and for certain conditions the resulting forces would be similar to the forces measured and that the time for thermal buckling to take place was also similar to experiments: much shorter (under 2 seconds) that people imagined that contemplated thermal effects to be very slow. Point being that thermal expansion effects (of the EM Drive and also thermal expansion simply moving the Center of Mass in the experimental set-up) are non-negligible.
5) Anisotropy was also discussed in previous threads. This is undoubtedly an interesting thing to discuss as previous discussions were inconclusive (particularly due to the difficulties in analyzing anisotropy). It was even suggested to intentionally make the EM Drive more anisotropic (from a macro-structure viewpoint), for example as proposed by de Aquino by having one end plate made of a ferromagnetic material while the rest of the EM Drive being diamagnetic (copper) (*). The big problem is that anisotropy (theoretically, by itself) does not get one out of the conservation of momentum problem.
__________
(*) It is perplexing that nobody has tried to report an experiment with an internal ferromagnetic coating on one of the end plates, as this would be rather simple to do. -
#648 by aero on 23 Dec, 2015 16:27
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Because of the serial thread structure of NSF, I think we have to understand that it is difficult to extract previous formula/data/posts...especially across 6 threads and hundreds of pages. The forum here works well, but searching/cataloging across threads is not a strong suite, but it is what we have to work with.
(...)
It also seems to me that the equation in question, assuming I have the right equation, posits a certain amount of loss of mass to keep things balanced. Can you produce the equation for this so that we can all see that current ion engines (or kicking a mirror out the back of a photonic laser rocket) isn't likely to cause a violation.
Win with math and I'm gone for a month and a half.
All these arguments were previously discussed mathematically.
This was before rfmwguy was moderating these threads and a number of new posters started to post these same old arguments that have been previously addressed.
If you want to re-open these discussions, because you have a mathematical proposal that has not been previously discussed, you will need to show your new equations.
________________
(*) The mutable, degradable QV proposed by Dr. White has been addressed separately.
Perhaps it is best for those who know exactly where the data resides to please link to it in commentary. I believe this will help new readers and posters. New readers are arriving daily and few may even know where to find the old info.
I know Chris wants to provide a helpful, welcoming environment for all in this topic and I believe linking to previous, relevant posts is more aligned with the spirit of the overall forum.
It is presumptive to assume that anybody (with memory of such content) is going to know exactly on what thread and what post number a given user's comment is going to be located. Of course memory of previous discussions does not entail memory of the exact time and post number at which the discussion took place.
Anybody with a modicum of interest can do that search on their own time. The time-consuming search process, entailing having to read old comments is itself helpful to such a person unfamiliar with the old thread's content to familiarize herself with such old comment. It is unreasonable to put that burden on the shoulders of the people that graciously enough take their valuable time to help narrow the search parameters by indicating how they can narrow that search (in this case for example by indicating that they can find it under the username: WarpTech, and that the posts are located in threads prior to the ones you moderated).
You can start looking in this area of thread 3.
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=37642.msg1401535#msg1401535
It seems that folks still don't understand that opening a Google search window, key words "advanced" "search", then using advanced search to find "WarpTech" "gravity" on the site "nasaspacefight.com/index.php is a very easy way to obtain a list of summary posts specific to the subject. More specific key words would give more specific results of course. -
#649 by Rodal on 23 Dec, 2015 16:34
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...
You can start looking in this area of thread 3.
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=37642.msg1401535#msg1401535
It seems that folks still don't understand that opening a Google search window, key words "advanced" "search", then using advanced search to find "WarpTech" "gravity" on the site "nasaspacefight.com/index.php is a very easy way to obtain a list of summary posts specific to the subject. More specific key words would give more specific results of course.
Thank you for bringing this up.
I suggest to place your comment (explaining how to search, in order to circumvent the horrible search functions at NSF) in the opening page of the EM Drive threads, under the title of "How to search"
including mentioning that the NSF EM Drive threads are also in:
http://emdrive.wiki
and that the threads in that website are much easier to search using a web browser search facility -
#650 by OnlyMe on 23 Dec, 2015 16:40
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.....
Four quick comments:
1) From a continuous mechanics point of view it is easy to show that the frequency of the microwave resonance (GHz) is so high, that taking into account the material properties and thickness of the walls of the EM Drive cavity, that any structural mechanics resonance amplitude at this frequency entails an amplitude of vibration response so small as to be completely negligible (from a continuum mechanics viewpoint).
2) Leaving the Continuum Mechanics regime, and now dealing with the particle mechanics regime addressed in the post above (for example the zitterbewgun motion of a particle) Bernard Haisch's theory of inertia has been discussed in previous threads, including objections vis-a-vis experimental data. (No, I am not going to perform a search to find those discussions , I am just making a statement in case anybody is interested in looking for such discussions).
3) It is straightforward to show that the thermal expansion of the cavity walls due to induction heating from the magnetic field comprises orders of magnitude greater displacement than the ones comprised by points 1 & 2 above. These thermal expansion effects (affecting the natural frequency of the cavity and hence moving the frequency at which maximum Q response takes place as the temperature increases) have been mathematically analyzed in previous threads vis-a-vis NASA's experimental measurements.
4) I wrote an article showing that thermal buckling of the EM Drive end-plate was possible, and for certain conditions the resulting forces would be similar to the forces measured and that the time for thermal buckling to take place was also similar to experiments: much shorter (under 2 seconds) that people imagined that contemplated thermal effects to be very slow. Point being that thermal expansion effects (of the EM Drive and also thermal expansion simply moving the Center of Mass in the experimental set-up) are non-negligible.
First, I am not suggesting that the inertia model of Haisch itself is involved. I was referencing only the dynamics of particle/wave resonance associate with a transfer of momentum, in his theory. Which should address #2 above as best as I understand it. I was not involved in the earlier threads.
I don't believe #1 is relative. It would seem to assume that the whole depth or volume of the frustum wall must resonate with the microwaves. That is not what I was intending. Was it Tajmar that found some degradation in his frustum walls that may have been associated with a change in measured results? And if only the surface molecules/atoms actually began to resonate in tune with the microwaves, might that also lead to some erosion or degradation of the surface? And yet still result in a more efficient transfer of momentum, until that degradation interferes with resonance?
I have no issues with #3-4 and any associated thermal effects must be accounted for, or designed out.
My intent was only to introduce a theoretical mechanism that might explain how an increase in the exchange of momentum between resonant microwaves and a resonating asymmetric cavity might occur, that does not involve bending spacetime or exotic speculations involving the QV.
BTW IF this is a mechanism that is involved it might just put a lifetime usefulness on the EMDrive itself, because it could involve erosion/degradation of the interior surface of the involved frustum wall(s), which would render it in effective over time... Change the Q and dynamics in a destructive manner.
Edit: Or be a good reason to operate at the lowest power levels that produce useable thrust, to prolong the lifetime integrity of the frustum. -
#651 by aero on 23 Dec, 2015 16:53
-
There are a lot of theoretical discussions considering radiation pressure and photon momentum.
While these effects are real, their forces are many orders of magnitude too small to be significant.
.....
Most of the speculation that I have seen, that does not stray too far into the realm of QV-VP mechanics or altering spacetime, has been treating what happens to resonance and microwaves in a frustum, in a manner where the material of the walls remains essentially static, aside from some expansion due to thermal effects. I don't believe that is realistic, since it cannot be denied that the frustum walls move from a state of relative rest, to a state of resonance with the introduced microwaves or at least near resonance. Once microwaves begin to resonate inside of the frustum, the characteristics and boundary conditions, of the frustum walls, that govern the interaction between the frustum walls and the resonant microwaves, change.., and that may even be a dynamic process that itself goes through cycles... So to the statement quoted above...
Under normal conditions this is true. Normally the transfer of momentum between EM radiation and matter is very inefficient. What strikes me as one possibility, altering that inefficient interaction, is an adaptation of one of the mechanisms incorporated in Bernard Haisch's theory of inertia. (This work/theory is developed over a number of papers and a period of perhaps even decades, a starting point for anyone interested is, 1994 Inertia as a zero-point-field Lorentz force - Haisch, Reuda & Puthoff - http://www.calphysics.org/articles/PRA94.pdf and 1998 Advances in the Proposed Electromagnetic Zero-Point Field Theory of Inertia, Haisch, Reuda & Puthoff - http://arxiv.org/abs/physics/9807023v2)... And yes, there is a very large gap between the vacuum interaction of a charged fundamental particle and the QV or zero-point field (ZPF) as referenced in this work and the dynamics of a frustum,, and yet potentially some very similar conditions.
The basic assertion in his theory is that the zitterbewgun motion of all fundamental particles, referred to in most of his work as partons, have a corresponding very high frequency EM spectrum of the ZPF that they interact with, in a self regenerating cycle, each sustained by the other (the zitterbewgun motion and the EM component of the ZPF) and that the ZPF remains isotropic with respect to the parton, except in the case of acceleration... But the whole of his theory is not important here and is not really provable at present since the EM spectrum he asserts is present in the ZPF background interacts only with the patrons, not with whole atoms. So there is no way to build an instrument to test for and detect any EM radiation at the suggested frequencies.
The important part is that Haisch et. al. have presented a argument, which even absent proof supports the idea, that when the resonant frequency of the zitterbewgun motion of a particle, matches the frequency of the EM spectrum it is interacting with, the interaction is confined solely to a mutually regenerating exchange of momentum.
Which leads to a situation which might mirror the dynamics inside of a frustum in resonance with the introduced microwaves. At that portion of the frustum walls where the resonance is greatest, some portion of the atoms at the surface of the frustum wall should begin to resonate with the microwaves, which if looked at from the perspective of the theoretical work of Haisch, should increase the efficiency of the transfer of momentum, in that area of the frustum.., and possibly be the mechanism resulting in thrust.
Since the surface atom which would be resonating with and directly interactioning in the transfer of momentum from the microwaves to the frustum, are also directly interacting with nearby atoms in the frustum wall, the kinetic energy associated with the transferred momentum would be rapidly randomized as added heat, while the momentum itself should be transferred through the frustum wall in a generally conical manner and more or less at 90 degrees to the initial transfer. Heat dissipates through a conductor in a far more general manner than momentum, at quantum to atomic scales.
The point is, that if Haisch is correct in how he models the interaction between resonating particles and EM radiation resulting in a transfer of momentum only is sound, even should his theory of inertia be incorrect, it could explain how the shape of the frustum and its interaction with the resonating microwaves, alters the boundary conditions of the cavity walls in an anisotropic manner and creates a bias in how momentum is transferred between the microwaves and the frustum.
Five quick comments:
1) From a continuous mechanics point of view it is easy to show that the frequency of the microwave resonance (GHz) is so high, that taking into account the material properties and thickness of the walls of the EM Drive cavity, that any structural mechanics resonance amplitude at this frequency entails an amplitude of vibration response so small as to be completely negligible (from a continuum mechanics viewpoint).
2) Leaving the Continuum Mechanics regime, and now dealing with the particle mechanics regime addressed in the post above (for example the zitterbewgun motion of a particle) Bernard Haisch's theory of inertia has been discussed in previous threads, including objections vis-a-vis experimental data. (No, I am not going to perform a search to find those discussions , I am just making a statement in case anybody is interested in looking for such discussions).
3) It is straightforward to show that the thermal expansion of the cavity walls due to induction heating from the magnetic field comprises orders of magnitude greater displacement than the ones comprised by points 1 & 2 above. These thermal expansion effects (affecting the natural frequency of the cavity and hence moving the frequency at which maximum Q response takes place as the temperature increases) have been mathematically analyzed in previous threads vis-a-vis NASA's experimental measurements.
4) I wrote an article showing that thermal buckling of the EM Drive end-plate was possible, and for certain conditions the resulting forces would be similar to the forces measured and that the time for thermal buckling to take place was also similar to experiments: much shorter (under 2 seconds) that people imagined that contemplated thermal effects to be very slow. Point being that thermal expansion effects (of the EM Drive and also thermal expansion simply moving the Center of Mass in the experimental set-up) are non-negligible.
5) Anisotropy was also discussed in previous threads. This is undoubtedly an interesting thing to discuss as previous discussions were inconclusive (particularly due to the difficulties in analyzing anisotropy). It was even suggested to intentionally make the EM Drive more anisotropic (from a macro-structure viewpoint), for example as proposed by de Aquino by having one end plate made of a ferromagnetic material while the rest of the EM Drive being diamagnetic (copper) (*). The big problem is that anisotropy (theoretically, by itself) does not get one out of the conservation of momentum problem.
__________
(*) It is perplexing that nobody has tried to report an experiment with an internal ferromagnetic coating on one of the end plates, as this would be rather simple to do.
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=29276.msg1265765#msg1265765
Bernard Haisch . -
#652 by Rodal on 23 Dec, 2015 16:57
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.....
Four quick comments:
1) From a continuous mechanics point of view it is easy to show that the frequency of the microwave resonance (GHz) is so high, that taking into account the material properties and thickness of the walls of the EM Drive cavity, that any structural mechanics resonance amplitude at this frequency entails an amplitude of vibration response so small as to be completely negligible (from a continuum mechanics viewpoint).
2) Leaving the Continuum Mechanics regime, and now dealing with the particle mechanics regime addressed in the post above (for example the zitterbewgun motion of a particle) Bernard Haisch's theory of inertia has been discussed in previous threads, including objections vis-a-vis experimental data. (No, I am not going to perform a search to find those discussions , I am just making a statement in case anybody is interested in looking for such discussions).
3) It is straightforward to show that the thermal expansion of the cavity walls due to induction heating from the magnetic field comprises orders of magnitude greater displacement than the ones comprised by points 1 & 2 above. These thermal expansion effects (affecting the natural frequency of the cavity and hence moving the frequency at which maximum Q response takes place as the temperature increases) have been mathematically analyzed in previous threads vis-a-vis NASA's experimental measurements.
4) I wrote an article showing that thermal buckling of the EM Drive end-plate was possible, and for certain conditions the resulting forces would be similar to the forces measured and that the time for thermal buckling to take place was also similar to experiments: much shorter (under 2 seconds) that people imagined that contemplated thermal effects to be very slow. Point being that thermal expansion effects (of the EM Drive and also thermal expansion simply moving the Center of Mass in the experimental set-up) are non-negligible.
First, I am not suggesting that the inertia model of Haisch itself is involved. I was referencing only the dynamics of particle/wave resonance associate with a transfer of momentum, in his theory. Which should address #2 above as best as I understand it. I was not involved in the earlier threads.
I don't believe #1 is relative. It would seem to assume that the whole depth or volume of the frustum wall must resonate with the microwaves. That is not what I was intending. Was it Tajmar that found some degradation in his frustum walls that may have been associated with a change in measured results? And if only the surface molecules/atoms actually began to resonate in tune with the microwaves, might that also lead to some erosion or degradation of the surface? And yet still result in a more efficient transfer of momentum, until that degradation interferes with resonance?
I have no issues with #3-4 and any associated thermal effects must be accounted for, or designed out.
My intent was only to introduce a theoretical mechanism that might explain how an increase in the exchange of momentum between resonant microwaves and a resonating asymmetric cavity might occur, that does not involve bending spacetime or exotic speculations involving the QV.
BTW IF this is a mechanism that is involved it might just put a lifetime usefulness on the EMDrive itself, because it could involve erosion/degradation of the interior surface of the involved frustum wall(s), which would render it in effective over time... Change the Q and dynamics in a destructive manner.
Edit: Or be a good reason to operate at the lowest power levels that produce useable thrust, to prolong the lifetime integrity of the frustum.
OK, concerning a discussion of <<how an increase in the exchange of momentum between resonant microwaves and a resonating asymmetric cavity might occur, that does not involve bending spacetime or exotic speculations involving the QV>> the resonances that are being examined in these experiments have wavelengths that are several centimeters long, that is, wavelengths that are in the macro domain as opposed to be anywhere near the micro domain (and nowhere close to the particle domain).
Since the wavelengths associated with this resonance is so large, I would propose that the quality factor Q for these experiments is just a measure of resonance inverse to damping, Q=1/(2 gamma) where gamma is the damping ratio, as given by Q=1/TanDelta for dielectrics (as in the case of NASA), or as given by the losses due to conductivity of the copper walls in the skin depth region (also for NASA and for everybody else not using a dielectric).
Therefore it is non-obvious to see a connection between the state of resonance in these experiments and zitterbewgun motion of a particle. -
#653 by aero on 23 Dec, 2015 17:10
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The copper in the frustum walls at GHz frequencies can be treated as an electron plasma as modelled by DeltaMass. I suggest then that the particles of interest here are the electrons.
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#654 by OnlyMe on 23 Dec, 2015 17:13
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.....
Four quick comments:
1) From a continuous mechanics point of view it is easy to show that the frequency of the microwave resonance (GHz) is so high, that taking into account the material properties and thickness of the walls of the EM Drive cavity, that any structural mechanics resonance amplitude at this frequency entails an amplitude of vibration response so small as to be completely negligible (from a continuum mechanics viewpoint).
2) Leaving the Continuum Mechanics regime, and now dealing with the particle mechanics regime addressed in the post above (for example the zitterbewgun motion of a particle) Bernard Haisch's theory of inertia has been discussed in previous threads, including objections vis-a-vis experimental data. (No, I am not going to perform a search to find those discussions , I am just making a statement in case anybody is interested in looking for such discussions).
3) It is straightforward to show that the thermal expansion of the cavity walls due to induction heating from the magnetic field comprises orders of magnitude greater displacement than the ones comprised by points 1 & 2 above. These thermal expansion effects (affecting the natural frequency of the cavity and hence moving the frequency at which maximum Q response takes place as the temperature increases) have been mathematically analyzed in previous threads vis-a-vis NASA's experimental measurements.
4) I wrote an article showing that thermal buckling of the EM Drive end-plate was possible, and for certain conditions the resulting forces would be similar to the forces measured and that the time for thermal buckling to take place was also similar to experiments: much shorter (under 2 seconds) that people imagined that contemplated thermal effects to be very slow. Point being that thermal expansion effects (of the EM Drive and also thermal expansion simply moving the Center of Mass in the experimental set-up) are non-negligible.
First, I am not suggesting that the inertia model of Haisch itself is involved. I was referencing only the dynamics of particle/wave resonance associate with a transfer of momentum, in his theory. Which should address #2 above as best as I understand it. I was not involved in the earlier threads.
I don't believe #1 is relative. It would seem to assume that the whole depth or volume of the frustum wall must resonate with the microwaves. That is not what I was intending. Was it Tajmar that found some degradation in his frustum walls that may have been associated with a change in measured results? And if only the surface molecules/atoms actually began to resonate in tune with the microwaves, might that also lead to some erosion or degradation of the surface? And yet still result in a more efficient transfer of momentum, until that degradation interferes with resonance?
I have no issues with #3-4 and any associated thermal effects must be accounted for, or designed out.
My intent was only to introduce a theoretical mechanism that might explain how an increase in the exchange of momentum between resonant microwaves and a resonating asymmetric cavity might occur, that does not involve bending spacetime or exotic speculations involving the QV.
BTW IF this is a mechanism that is involved it might just put a lifetime usefulness on the EMDrive itself, because it could involve erosion/degradation of the interior surface of the involved frustum wall(s), which would render it in effective over time... Change the Q and dynamics in a destructive manner.
Edit: Or be a good reason to operate at the lowest power levels that produce useable thrust, to prolong the lifetime integrity of the frustum.
OK, concerning a discussion of <<how an increase in the exchange of momentum between resonant microwaves and a resonating asymmetric cavity might occur, that does not involve bending spacetime or exotic speculations involving the QV>> the resonances that are being examined in these experiments have wavelengths that are several centimeters long, that is, wavelengths that are in the macro domain as opposed to be anywhere near the micro domain (and nowhere close to the particle domain).
Since the wavelengths associated with this resonance is so large, I would propose that the quality factor Q for these experiments is just a measure of resonance inverse to damping, as given by Q=1/TanDelta for dielectrics (as in the case of NASA), or as given by the losses due to conductivity of the copper walls in the skin depth region (also for NASA and for everybody else not using a dielectric).
Therefore it is non-obvious to see a connection between the state of resonance in these experiments and zitterbewgun motion of a particle.
Forget zitterbewgun motion and wavelengths, the only aspect that would be important here is the frequency match between the vibrations in the atoms at the surface and the microwaves impacting that surface. If this were not the case how could an electron in an atom interact with a photon whose wavelength is far greater than the diameter of the atom?
The atoms don't have to move centimeters to vibrate at the same frequency as the microwaves. In fact as a component of a solid conductor they are not entirely free to do so.
If they did you might expect a 100% efficient transfer of momentum.., but really that is not even a practical consideration. All we need is an asymmetrical improvement in how momentum is transferred.
And again, over excite the atoms at the surface and the surface will likely begin to be eroded.., essentially pitted, where that over excitation begins to exceed the molecular bond with nearby atoms, which are not equally excited.
I know very bad language here, I ran out of time about 20 minutes ago.... -
#655 by Rodal on 23 Dec, 2015 17:30
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OK, assume for discussion's sake that << the only aspect that would be important here is the frequency match between the vibrations in the atoms at the surface and the microwaves impacting that surface>>.....
Four quick comments:
1) From a continuous mechanics point of view it is easy to show that the frequency of the microwave resonance (GHz) is so high, that taking into account the material properties and thickness of the walls of the EM Drive cavity, that any structural mechanics resonance amplitude at this frequency entails an amplitude of vibration response so small as to be completely negligible (from a continuum mechanics viewpoint).
2) Leaving the Continuum Mechanics regime, and now dealing with the particle mechanics regime addressed in the post above (for example the zitterbewgun motion of a particle) Bernard Haisch's theory of inertia has been discussed in previous threads, including objections vis-a-vis experimental data. (No, I am not going to perform a search to find those discussions , I am just making a statement in case anybody is interested in looking for such discussions).
3) It is straightforward to show that the thermal expansion of the cavity walls due to induction heating from the magnetic field comprises orders of magnitude greater displacement than the ones comprised by points 1 & 2 above. These thermal expansion effects (affecting the natural frequency of the cavity and hence moving the frequency at which maximum Q response takes place as the temperature increases) have been mathematically analyzed in previous threads vis-a-vis NASA's experimental measurements.
4) I wrote an article showing that thermal buckling of the EM Drive end-plate was possible, and for certain conditions the resulting forces would be similar to the forces measured and that the time for thermal buckling to take place was also similar to experiments: much shorter (under 2 seconds) that people imagined that contemplated thermal effects to be very slow. Point being that thermal expansion effects (of the EM Drive and also thermal expansion simply moving the Center of Mass in the experimental set-up) are non-negligible.
First, I am not suggesting that the inertia model of Haisch itself is involved. I was referencing only the dynamics of particle/wave resonance associate with a transfer of momentum, in his theory. Which should address #2 above as best as I understand it. I was not involved in the earlier threads.
I don't believe #1 is relative. It would seem to assume that the whole depth or volume of the frustum wall must resonate with the microwaves. That is not what I was intending. Was it Tajmar that found some degradation in his frustum walls that may have been associated with a change in measured results? And if only the surface molecules/atoms actually began to resonate in tune with the microwaves, might that also lead to some erosion or degradation of the surface? And yet still result in a more efficient transfer of momentum, until that degradation interferes with resonance?
I have no issues with #3-4 and any associated thermal effects must be accounted for, or designed out.
My intent was only to introduce a theoretical mechanism that might explain how an increase in the exchange of momentum between resonant microwaves and a resonating asymmetric cavity might occur, that does not involve bending spacetime or exotic speculations involving the QV.
BTW IF this is a mechanism that is involved it might just put a lifetime usefulness on the EMDrive itself, because it could involve erosion/degradation of the interior surface of the involved frustum wall(s), which would render it in effective over time... Change the Q and dynamics in a destructive manner.
Edit: Or be a good reason to operate at the lowest power levels that produce useable thrust, to prolong the lifetime integrity of the frustum.
OK, concerning a discussion of <<how an increase in the exchange of momentum between resonant microwaves and a resonating asymmetric cavity might occur, that does not involve bending spacetime or exotic speculations involving the QV>> the resonances that are being examined in these experiments have wavelengths that are several centimeters long, that is, wavelengths that are in the macro domain as opposed to be anywhere near the micro domain (and nowhere close to the particle domain).
Since the wavelengths associated with this resonance is so large, I would propose that the quality factor Q for these experiments is just a measure of resonance inverse to damping, as given by Q=1/TanDelta for dielectrics (as in the case of NASA), or as given by the losses due to conductivity of the copper walls in the skin depth region (also for NASA and for everybody else not using a dielectric).
Therefore it is non-obvious to see a connection between the state of resonance in these experiments and zitterbewgun motion of a particle.
Forget zitterbewgun motion and wavelengths, the only aspect that would be important here is the frequency match between the vibrations in the atoms at the surface and the microwaves impacting that surface. If this were not the case how could an electron in an atom interact with a photon whose wavelength is far greater than the diameter of the atom?
The atoms don't have to move centimeters to vibrate at the same frequency as the microwaves. In fact as a component of a solid conductor they are not entirely free to do so.
If they did you might expect a 100% efficient transfer of momentum.., but really that is not even a practical consideration. All we need is an asymmetrical improvement in how momentum is transferred.
And again, over excite the atoms at the surface and the surface will likely begin to be eroded.., essentially pitted, where that over excitation begins to exceed the molecular bond with nearby atoms, which are not equally excited.
I know very bad language here, I ran out of time about 20 minutes ago....
The natural frequencies of resonance are dictated simply by an eigenvalue problem that is solved in terms of the macro dimensions of the cavity. (No need whatsoever for particle mechanics to solve the eigenfrequency problem).
And the amplitude of resonance, quality factor Q is just a measure of the damping properties of the cavity materials. That's affected by <<over excite the atoms at the surface and the surface will likely begin to be eroded.., essentially pitted, where that over excitation begins to exceed the molecular bond with nearby atoms, which are not equally excited>>
The practical values of tan delta (for dielectrics used in EM Drive) and resistivity (for copper, etc. used in EM Drive) are so small that the damping effect on the frequency of highest amplitude are really negligible.
How does the EM Drive cavity self-accelerate without involving external fields (and hence without breaking conservation of momentum)? Geometrical asymmetry (or material anisotropy) are not enough to justify it. That's why Notsosureofit is ...not so sure, and invokes a special theory of GR that would involve interaction with an external GR field. -
#656 by Notsosureofit on 23 Dec, 2015 17:40
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The photon is unique in that it is the particle which is a pure electromagnetic field which can be acted upon by a gravitational field.
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#657 by Flyby on 23 Dec, 2015 18:51
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Never mind , dr Rodal... i must have misunderstood your writings...
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#658 by VAXHeadroom on 23 Dec, 2015 18:57
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OK - I have pushed meep as far as I can on my computer (Win 8, 8GB RAM, 1TB HD, 3Ghz quad core i7). Taking aero's CE3 file for SeeShells' device, I have updated the resolution from 250 to 275. This runs with 1 thread (in VirtualBox Ubuntu) using 85% of 6GB of RAM (maxing my computer RAM without thrashing the HD). This ran in about 8 hours. At the end I generated just the H fields every 0.01 time slices, resulting in 112 frames for 1 wave cycle. The resulting H5 files are 32GB each. I then used h5totxt to pull two X plane slices out of the data - in the middle, and a second about 30% of the radius above the middle (scanning through the data with the H5viewer shows this to be the area of the strongest magnetic field). The resulting CSV files were then converted to an 'include' file for the POV-Ray graphic raytracing program using a custom program I wrote (source available). This was then assembled into a 555 frame animation (it should have been 560 but I inadvertently skipped a frame at the end, so there's a slight discontinuity) running the 111 frames 5x through. These frames were then looped 5x into the following video:
I've attached the CSV file conversion output as a log file so you can see the max values of the H fields. The numbers are in 'meep values'. Conversations with aero indicate that these meep values are scaled by 0.3, so to convert to the correct magnitude they should be scaled by 1/0.3 or 3.333... This means the max values are >7.4.
Comments and suggestions encouraged
Specifically: How can I improve the visualization?
-- Emory Stagmer (aka VAXHeadroom)
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#659 by robus on 23 Dec, 2015 19:56
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Typical. I go away for a couple of days and a lot hell breaks loose!
Congratulations Shell - what a way to end the year! And, my science, I hope you can repeat it.
So sad there was no camera rolling to capture the event and your reaction
Happy Holidays everyone!
, I am just making a statement in case anybody is interested in looking for such discussions).
Specifically: How can I improve the visualization?