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#440
by
Left Field
on 20 Dec, 2015 22:10
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Whatever comes of this em-drive business, whatever that means, I am fascinated as well. In fact, because of the em drive I am now getting interested in physics. I've always loved computer science, but thanks to everybody here I am now deeply interested in physics. Its definitely not a boring subject, nor is it confusing. It just seems that way at first.
Rodal should be a professor and teach his stuff if he hasn't in the past or doesn't currently. And Shell is a great engineer, also very inspirational. rfmwguy sticks his neck out there and gets to business, so we can all benefit. Nice job guys and keep up the good work.
Thanks.
You all are simply incredible! I'm not throwing that word out here lightly and this even goes for the ones who are just tuning in to see this unfold, I urge you all to please stay tuned.
I'm reminded every day now of the father who said he had a daughter and she said she wanted to grow up to become to be a scientist like me. What a proud dad he must be. Hearing that gives me hope and faith in the fathers and mothers and the children who will walk in our shoes.
Things are happening. EagleWorks has a paper in peer review and I'm restoring my lab into my home and the frustum antennas I fried. I'll say it. I got thrust and yes it was above EagleWorks and rfmwguy's and several others. It was a O. M.G. moment. Honestly, I got so excited I was shaking, it was like a new hot rod car and I regressed turning up the power. I didn't record any of it as it was just a preliminary test to see if everything worked. I got more thrust and as the digital scales were climbing it went pffft. That wasn't good.
For those of you that are wondering what I have in plans right now (other than getting things set up in the home) is to test two different antennas, one being a cone style and the other being a ball on the end of the antennas (like your car antenna) to see if I can negate some of the coronal discharges from the points of the antennas that it had to see to fry itself into a match. I've vowed it will not happen again at greater power.
Don't ask what levels I got, all I'll say they were out of the noise and error IMHO. We will revisit it all again when I get set up. I'll post all the data I get for everyone to see. Yes, rfmwguy I'll post some pics.
Everyone have a great Sunday. I'm back to rebuilding a waveguide that wasn't as good as it needed to be the first time and may have caused my antennas to matchstick.
Shell
PS: Dad, you tell your daughter that you're proud of her, as am I.
Fantastic news Shell! I am so excited for you and all here who have given countless hours of their time reading and contributing to this amazing thread/collaboration.
Let's hope you can give a Christmas gift to the world.
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#441
by
ThereIWas3
on 20 Dec, 2015 22:16
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On frying things, that may be a problem with the high Q values involved.
As I was researching antenna designs for my ham radio, I looked into a type called a "magnetic loop". These things look like a 1m circle, like a Hula Hoop, made out of 1-in copper pipe. Seems kind of hefty for a 100 watt transmitter? Well, the thing operates at such a high Q that many AMPS flow in that pipe, and the voltage across the capacitor that breaks the loop at one point can exceed several thousand volts! All being fed with under 100w. My own transmitter puts out only 5 watts and the calculations say it would induce voltages around 1,000v. Needless to say, the thing is hazardous to get close to when in operation, and the magnetic field it puts out is really intense. And this is at RF frequencies 14 to 28 MHz. Tuning it is so precise that the capacitor has to be adjusted if you change frequency by more than just a couple of kHz. (Most designs use a remotely operated motor to do this.)
I chose to go with a much safer and mundane antenna, even though the "magloop" is said to be very efficient.
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#442
by
SeeShells
on 20 Dec, 2015 22:16
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I'll say it. I got thrust and yes it was above EagleWorks and rfmwguy's and several others.
W00t! Be advised, there is a Santa Claus. Careful construction techniques pay off. Now we need enough data points to try to figure out why it works. This might actually be harder than building the things. I think all of the theories so far have been guesses, some better than others.
For those of us doing math simulations, some more dimensions would help. Such as exactly where on the frustrum your feedlines attach (distance from the small end), what the nature of the connection is (a little antenna inside the frustrum? What shape?) Do you think modelling of the feedlines themselves is necessary, or just their terminations? Exactly what sort of coax are you using, and how long? From the pictures I saw before, magnetron some feet away, the feedlines are going to be about 8 wavelengths long.
Yes and yes, coaxial lengths are very important and terminating into a 1/4 wave... absolutely. If you don't mind waiting a little I have my hands full getting this up and running again and then I'll spec every little bit out I can for all.
Shell
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#443
by
SeeShells
on 20 Dec, 2015 22:24
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There is one person here that I want to thank (well more than one person, the list is very long and some are not here anymore and are missed) that decided to come back after taking a vacation from the craziness here and that's Dr. Rodal. Doc you have helped me ramp up in a short time to make something that will work. Your input has always been spot on and valuable beyond words.
Thank you Dr. Rodal for being here.
Shell
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#444
by
A_M_Swallow
on 20 Dec, 2015 22:41
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After all this posting getting a patent on your version of the EMDrive may be hard but you may be able to claim a Design Registration. Whether it is worth while I will leave up to you.
http://www.craske.co.uk/articles/art300809.htm
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#445
by
rfmwguy
on 20 Dec, 2015 22:58
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Huh? What? You got more that I did. Impossible, Shell! I am the king of emdrives!
Wait...reality check...I am but a single experimenter looking for answers when I found a little anomaly with a homebrew, humble experiment.
Shell, congrats on your discovery! I am proud you have succeeded. If I helped in any way, it is why I did my build and openly shared the info. This is probably the best Christmas gift I could have received...news that I am not alone out here...believe me, its felt like that for weeks.
You and I have taken lots of shots over the past few months...glad you didn't give up. You are a fine Engineer, proud to count you as a friend.
Onwards and upwards-Dave
p.s. I'm still willing to donate NSF-1701 to your global Emdrive Test Facility and Museum in the Rockies
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#446
by
SeeShells
on 20 Dec, 2015 23:13
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On frying things, that may be a problem with the high Q values involved.
As I was researching antenna designs for my ham radio, I looked into a type called a "magnetic loop". These things look like a 1m circle, like a Hula Hoop, made out of 1-in copper pipe. Seems kind of hefty for a 100 watt transmitter? Well, the thing operates at such a high Q that many AMPS flow in that pipe, and the voltage across the capacitor that breaks the loop at one point can exceed several thousand volts! All being fed with under 100w. My own transmitter puts out only 5 watts and the calculations say it would induce voltages around 1,000v. Needless to say, the thing is hazardous to get close to when in operation, and the magnetic field it puts out is really intense. And this is at RF frequencies 14 to 28 MHz. Tuning it is so precise that the capacitor has to be adjusted if you change frequency by more than just a couple of kHz. (Most designs use a remotely operated motor to do this.)
I chose to go with a much safer and mundane antenna, even though the "magloop" is said to be very efficient.
If needed I can fill the chamber with a gas that prevents arcing or if you would like a good online reference...
http://www.ece.rutgers.edu/~orfanidi/ewa/ . great because it's free.
Shell
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#447
by
aero
on 20 Dec, 2015 23:15
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Congratulations Shells,
aero
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#448
by
SeeShells
on 20 Dec, 2015 23:26
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Congratulations Shells,
aero
Aero, you need to be thanked for all the work you have done, the hours spent modeling my and others designs. Thank you.
Shell
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#449
by
glennfish
on 20 Dec, 2015 23:29
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I'll say it. I got thrust and yes it was above EagleWorks and rfmwguy's and several others.
Gently....
Now go characterize this in excruciating detail, otherwise the physics types will be most vitriolic and abrasive.
N = 1, observation = positive >
x, conditions & controls = unknown
Gotta bring that
N up a bit, nail down the
x, define conditions & controls, statistical or physical, and above all, make sure there are controls for all the other items in
stuff for
x = f(
stuff). Got to know what is buried in
stuff.
In answer to your earlier question, no I don't mind. Just psyche yourself up to doing a lot of data runs, all the same. That's where the stats will come from.
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#450
by
SeeShells
on 20 Dec, 2015 23:35
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I'll say it. I got thrust and yes it was above EagleWorks and rfmwguy's and several others.
Gently....
Now go characterize this in excruciating detail, otherwise the physics types will be most vitriolic and abrasive.
N = 1, observation = positive > x, conditions & controls = unknown
Gotta bring that N up a bit, nail down the x, define conditions & controls, statistical or physical, and above all, make sure there are controls for all the other items in stuff for x = f(stuff). Got to know what is buried in stuff.
In answer to your earlier question, no I don't mind. Just psyche yourself up to doing a lot of data runs, all the same. That's where the stats will come from.
I know now comes the mundane testing after testing, the list is long but it's going to be worth it.
Shell
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#451
by
rfmwguy
on 20 Dec, 2015 23:39
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I'll say it. I got thrust and yes it was above EagleWorks and rfmwguy's and several others.
Gently....
Now go characterize this in excruciating detail, otherwise the physics types will be most vitriolic and abrasive.
N = 1, observation = positive > x, conditions & controls = unknown
Gotta bring that N up a bit, nail down the x, define conditions & controls, statistical or physical, and above all, make sure there are controls for all the other items in stuff for x = f(stuff). Got to know what is buried in stuff.
In answer to your earlier question, no I don't mind. Just psyche yourself up to doing a lot of data runs, all the same. That's where the stats will come from.
Glenn, looks like you'll be busy helping shells...thanks in advance. like our experiments, the pay isn't anything to write home about
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#452
by
Rodal
on 20 Dec, 2015 23:39
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There is one person here that I want to thank (well more than one person, the list is very long and some are not here anymore and are missed) that decided to come back after taking a vacation from the craziness here and that's Dr. Rodal. Doc you have helped me ramp up in a short time to make something that will work. Your input has always been spot on and valuable beyond words.
Thank you Dr. Rodal for being here.
Shell
Thank you, that makes my day.
Nobody has designed her experiments more thoroughly, deliberately, comprehensively, thoughtfully, patiently than you and nobody has been so persevering, detailed and unselfish in pursuing her goal !
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#453
by
VAXHeadroom
on 20 Dec, 2015 23:48
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...
Things are happening. EagleWorks has a paper in peer review and I'm restoring my lab into my home and the frustum antennas I fried. I'll say it. I got thrust and yes it was above EagleWorks and rfmwguy's and several others. It was a O. M.G. moment. Honestly, I got so excited I was shaking, it was like a new hot rod car and I regressed turning up the power. I didn't record any of it as it was just a preliminary test to see if everything worked. I got more thrust and as the digital scales were climbing it went pffft. That wasn't good.
...
Shell
PS: Dad, you tell your daughter that you're proud of her, as am I.
My goosebumps have goosebumps. I think the anticipation might kill us all.
CONGRATULATIONS!!
(and helluva nice PS
)
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#454
by
rfmwguy
on 21 Dec, 2015 00:00
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On the heels of shells big news, I began having conversatios last week with conn-selmer, a brass instrument manufacturer. The refered me to a brassmith about 30 minutes away. I gave him frustum demensions and he is going to quote a solid sidewall truncated cone for nsf-1701a. I will expect return loss numbers of at least 30dB for the new frustum. Rf injection will be the same, but I will await shells discription of her power supply. Her isolation of the magnetron away from the frustum appears to be a solid advancement in diy building techniques.
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#455
by
TheTraveller
on 21 Dec, 2015 00:01
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Always liked Caesar's Palace. Wife likes the shopping.
Make it March 2016 or later & I'll bring along my S band spherical end plate thruster on the rotary test rig. It is designed to travel.
Phil
Moving equipment across international borders can cause a few bureaucratic problems. Such as import licenses, export licenses and no longer a tourist.
If it works getting it won't be the problem... Getting it back?
Have imported equipment onto the US for shows before. Don't plan to take it home. I'm sure someone, maybe EW, will give it a good home.
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#456
by
rfmwguy
on 21 Dec, 2015 00:27
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Always liked Caesar's Palace. Wife likes the shopping.
Make it March 2016 or later & I'll bring along my S band spherical end plate thruster on the rotary test rig. It is designed to travel.
Phil
Moving equipment across international borders can cause a few bureaucratic problems. Such as import licenses, export licenses and no longer a tourist.
If it works getting it won't be the problem... Getting it back?
Have imported equipment onto the US for shows before. Don't plan to take it home. I'm sure someone, maybe EW, will give it a good home.
I'm waiting for paul and the crew's invitation for houston should they have some big news in 2016. C'mon paul, houston in early 2016 would be a great getaway from the cold northern winters...help us!
p.s. I'll be in dc later this week vax, perhaps there will be enough time to have a beer or two. Holiday travels to see the kids in MD.
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#457
by
SeeShells
on 21 Dec, 2015 01:17
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There is one person here that I want to thank (well more than one person, the list is very long and some are not here anymore and are missed) that decided to come back after taking a vacation from the craziness here and that's Dr. Rodal. Doc you have helped me ramp up in a short time to make something that will work. Your input has always been spot on and valuable beyond words.
Thank you Dr. Rodal for being here.
Shell
Thank you, that makes my day.
Nobody has designed her experiments more thoroughly, deliberately, comprehensively, thoughtfully, patiently than you and nobody has been so persevering, detailed and unselfish in pursuing her goal !
Thank you Dr. Rodal, that was the best Christmas present ever.
Shell
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#458
by
RERT
on 21 Dec, 2015 01:23
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Well, I got up in the middle of the night having figured out how to respond to Frobnicat on conservation of Energy, to see Shell's news. (Tentative) congratulations! All we need now is a few Gigabytes of data and videos, and a certificate from James Randi that you aren't some mendacious snake oil sales-woman..at least, maybe that will be enough!
Frobnicat: I want you to know that you've made me dip into bits of my old texts which never saw the light of day in the early 80's. Try this reference: Misner, Thorne & Wheeler 'Gravitation' published by Freeman and Company (pretty much the standard text at the time). Read Box 27.1, pp705-706, especially 706:
"Values of the radius of the universe a greater than a_max are not possible. If a were to become greater than a_max, the 'potential energy' would exceed the total 'energy' and the 'kinetic energy' of expansion would have become negative, which is impossible. Consequently...[the] velocity of expansion decreases as the expansion proceeds. It falls to zero at the turning point a = a_max. Thereafter the system recontracts."
The energy terms are in quotes because of their previously stated position that the measurement of these quantities for the whole universe is impossible, and they are dealing with analogues of these quantities which do exist.
I believe that an observation of the universe accelerating apart, with no apparent limit a_max, blows this away, and at least to this extent CoE is broken by that observation.
Congratulations again Shells!
R.
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#459
by
Jaykzo
on 21 Dec, 2015 01:45
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I've been following this discussion since page one of thread 1.
An overwhelming amount of the information has been beyond my comprehension, as a musician with just one college physics class.
However, the confusion hasn't been enough to discourage me from keeping up with all the remarkable work you're all doing here.
I just want to say congratulations to you Shell.
And as a lay citizen, I just want to thank the rest of you all for doing what you do. I feel it's immensely important work, and I truly admire your skills, expertise, knowledge, and ability to work with each other. It's extraordinarily inspiring.
