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#380 by SteveD on 18 Dec, 2015 23:40
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Well it runs a gamut. On one end you have the thing clearly moving while the accelerometers read stationary (Alcubierre Drive) and on the other you've got a new take on an electric aircraft engine. Making mass dissappear would tend towards the Alcubierre end of the spectrum.
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#381 by oliverio on 18 Dec, 2015 23:48
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Well it runs a gamut. On one end you have the thing clearly moving while the accelerometers read stationary (Alcubierre Drive) and on the other you've got a new take on an electric aircraft engine. Making mass dissappear would tend towards the Alcubierre end of the spectrum.
For any object in motion, though, a reduction in its mass (ceteris paribus) would read as acceleration on an accelerometer, no spacetime bending necessary. -
#382 by R.W. Keyes on 18 Dec, 2015 23:50
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Do you think there's any chance we could have a convention, or if that sounds too ambitious, meeting of people interested in emdrive-related research? I'd really like to meet some of you in person, to put a voice to the words, so to speak.
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#383 by TheTraveller on 19 Dec, 2015 00:16
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RE: calculating thermals.
Given any of the DIY designs under consideration...
Assuming resonance is the path ...
Given the magnetrons in play today, what is the easiest way to take a DIY design and just dump heat AND destroy any meaningful resonance? I have a vision of stuffing steel wool into the frustum as a first approximation, but there might be a simpler way to totally detune a frustum. Bring the Q as close to zero (one?) as possible.
To me, that would be the cheap and dirty way to get a thermal lift measurement as a baseline data set.
Then, if you tuned for optimal resonance, highest possible Q, you'd have a baseline thermal for comparison.
Critiques? Ideas?
With a frustum Q of 1, very little Rf energy will enter the frustum. Almost all the energy will be reflected and will be thermalised elsewhere.
The only way to heat up the frustum is to excite it at resonance.
The higher the frustum Q, the higher the stored energy in the frustum, that will eventually be converted into heat, plus hopefully a little kinetic.
During the fill process, the frustum impedance changes quite a lot, with initially almost all the energy being reflected. The pulse length of a magnetron burst may alter the amount of energy delivered into the frustum from that burst by both freq of the burst in relationship to frustum resonance and the duration in relationship to the TC 5 fill time versus the pulse length. Frustums can be tricky beasts.
It takes 5 x TC to fill the frustum to peak energy, with 1 TC = Q unloaded / ( 2 Pi freq). 5 TC fill time for a 50k loaded Q (100k unloaded Q) frustum would be around 32 usec at 2.45 GHz.
Have started to build my 1st copper frustum. Expect data end Jan 2016.
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#384 by rfmwguy on 19 Dec, 2015 01:03
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Do you think there's any chance we could have a convention, or if that sounds too ambitious, meeting of people interested in emdrive-related research? I'd really like to meet some of you in person, to put a voice to the words, so to speak.
Have sponsor will travel
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#385 by Rodal on 19 Dec, 2015 01:20
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Do you think there's any chance we could have a convention, or if that sounds too ambitious, meeting of people interested in emdrive-related research? I'd really like to meet some of you in person, to put a voice to the words, so to speak.
That sounds like a great idea.
Would you like to meet in Las Vegas or in New York City? -
#386 by ThereIWas3 on 19 Dec, 2015 01:23
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Google Hangouts?
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#387 by OnlyMe on 19 Dec, 2015 01:36
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Do you think there's any chance we could have a convention, or if that sounds too ambitious, meeting of people interested in emdrive-related research? I'd really like to meet some of you in person, to put a voice to the words, so to speak.
That sounds like a great idea.
Would you like to meet in Las Vegas or in New York City?
What's the weather like in New York? Doesn't matter in Vegas! -
#388 by zellerium on 19 Dec, 2015 02:15
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If we meet in LA, I'll be there!
I'm curious: what would happen to the output of the magnetron if the power were reduced?
I'm wondering if reducing the power output might "clean-up" the spectrum and concentrate more of the energy within the resonance bandwidth. This might lead to less magnetron heating.
Also, is reducing the output power as simple as this guy claims?
Link: http://danyk.cz/magn2_en.html
To minimize thermal effects, is there any way to conduct more heat through the balance beam?
Or what if the frustum were insulated, and heat was conducted to radiators positioned in opposite directions that wouldn't effect thrust?
edit:
On second thought, the radiators would probably still produce convective effects. But maybe they would help to minimize the convective effects in the thrust direction.
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#389 by ThereIWas3 on 19 Dec, 2015 03:46
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Reducing mass. Hmm. If you eliminate mass, you eliminate inertia. If you do that, various effects as you approach the speed of light no longer happen. The spacecraft in the E.E. Doc Smith books worked on this principle. Somehow I doubt that is what is going on here.
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#390 by JonathanD on 19 Dec, 2015 05:09
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Reducing mass. Hmm. If you eliminate mass, you eliminate inertia.
So I suck at this stuff. But in my understanding photons don't have mass, but they are influenced by gravity only because they are just traversing curved space-time in the most direct way. So photons do not have any inertia then, correct? Just making sure, sorry for the Physics 101 diversion
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#391 by SeeShells on 19 Dec, 2015 05:18
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Reducing mass. Hmm. If you eliminate mass, you eliminate inertia. If you do that, various effects as you approach the speed of light no longer happen. The spacecraft in the E.E. Doc Smith books worked on this principle. Somehow I doubt that is what is going on here.
Let's see, we have copper, right?
It was a simple rhetorical statement that I simply have no clue what is going on... yet.
Shell
PS: Read them all.
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#392 by R.W. Keyes on 19 Dec, 2015 11:08
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Do you think there's any chance we could have a convention, or if that sounds too ambitious, meeting of people interested in emdrive-related research? I'd really like to meet some of you in person, to put a voice to the words, so to speak.
That sounds like a great idea.
Would you like to meet in Las Vegas or in New York City?
What's the weather like in New York? Doesn't matter in Vegas!
If it were up to me, I'd want it in Boston. But that's not practical. Las Vegas is probably the best place to have it. Oh, the weather? Last time I was in LV it was 112 degrees. The time before that, there was thunderstorms, and floods. -
#393 by TheTraveller on 19 Dec, 2015 11:18
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Do you think there's any chance we could have a convention, or if that sounds too ambitious, meeting of people interested in emdrive-related research? I'd really like to meet some of you in person, to put a voice to the words, so to speak.
That sounds like a great idea.
Would you like to meet in Las Vegas or in New York City?
What's the weather like in New York? Doesn't matter in Vegas!
If it were up to me, I'd want it in Boston. But that's not practical. Las Vegas is probably the best place to have it. Oh, the weather? Last time I was in LV it was 112 degrees. The time before that, there was thunderstorms, and floods.
Always liked Caesar's Palace. Wife likes the shopping.
Make it March 2016 or later & I'll bring along my S band spherical end plate thruster on the rotary test rig. It is designed to travel.
Phil -
#394 by R.W. Keyes on 19 Dec, 2015 12:42
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Do you think there's any chance we could have a convention, or if that sounds too ambitious, meeting of people interested in emdrive-related research? I'd really like to meet some of you in person, to put a voice to the words, so to speak.
That sounds like a great idea.
Would you like to meet in Las Vegas or in New York City?
What's the weather like in New York? Doesn't matter in Vegas!
If it were up to me, I'd want it in Boston. But that's not practical. Las Vegas is probably the best place to have it. Oh, the weather? Last time I was in LV it was 112 degrees. The time before that, there was thunderstorms, and floods.
Always liked Caesar's Palace. Wife likes the shopping.
Make it March 2016 or later & I'll bring along my S band spherical end plate thruster on the rotary test rig. It is designed to travel.
Phil
I liked Caesar's as well.I think March is a bit soon...these things take planning and coordination. It's not something I've done before, but I have a friend who has put on several, whom I can ask for hints.
I'd like to see actual Frustums, and put them under test with some appropriate thrust measuring devices, such as your rotary test rig.
We could have scheduled presentations, but I am wary of too much structure.
Thoughts on this?
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#395 by OnlyMe on 19 Dec, 2015 12:52
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Do you think there's any chance we could have a convention, or if that sounds too ambitious, meeting of people interested in emdrive-related research? I'd really like to meet some of you in person, to put a voice to the words, so to speak.
That sounds like a great idea.
Would you like to meet in Las Vegas or in New York City?
What's the weather like in New York? Doesn't matter in Vegas!
If it were up to me, I'd want it in Boston. But that's not practical. Las Vegas is probably the best place to have it. Oh, the weather? Last time I was in LV it was 112 degrees. The time before that, there was thunderstorms, and floods.
Always liked Caesar's Palace. Wife likes the shopping.
Make it March 2016 or later & I'll bring along my S band spherical end plate thruster on the rotary test rig. It is designed to travel.
Phil
I am not far from Vegas here in SoCal, but barring someone actually showing up with a functional.., even marginally functional EMDrive, I would more likely forgo the trip and just put the money into someone's efforts...
The weather in Vegas is seldom an issue, no matter what it is. Most of the time you wouldn't even know what time of day it is.
Another thing, it might be possible to get a group rate.., if there were enough notice and a drive that could be displayed working at one of the casinos. -
#396 by OnlyMe on 19 Dec, 2015 13:41
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If we meet in LA, I'll be there!
I'm curious: what would happen to the output of the magnetron if the power were reduced?
I'm wondering if reducing the power output might "clean-up" the spectrum and concentrate more of the energy within the resonance bandwidth. This might lead to less magnetron heating.
Also, is reducing the output power as simple as this guy claims?
Link: http://danyk.cz/magn2_en.html
To minimize thermal effects, is there any way to conduct more heat through the balance beam?
Or what if the frustum were insulated, and heat was conducted to radiators positioned in opposite directions that wouldn't effect thrust?
edit:
On second thought, the radiators would probably still produce convective effects. But maybe they would help to minimize the convective effects in the thrust direction.
Yang provided the following in her 2013 paper,
"the practical maximum microwave output power is 13 W, 120 W, 85 W, 65 W, 45 W, and 48 W respectively at the nominal output power 200 W, 300 W, 400 W, 500 W, 600 W, and 700 W."
The graph at the link below uses the nominal output power and extends that all of the way to Yangs maximum of 2500 watts. But if you were to use the practical maximum output from the above it would look a bit different... And might suggest that she was getting a better percentage of practical microwave output at the higher nominal powers.
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=39004.0;attach=1087396
I expect that much of that would depend on the magnetron and exactly what frequencies you are trying to lock resonance at..., and how you are trying to control the magnetron output.... Not enough detail on any of that...
... I believe Shell has or is in the process of addressing some of the heat issues you raise. Her magnetron is located remotely from the frustum and her balance beam is non metallic, I think it was a carbon fiber of some sort, with lower thermal expansion.
Magnetrons seem to be a dirty power source for the frustum, but they are the cheap and readily accessible starting point... They are also what Yang and Shawyer were using to make their claims. Ultimately, unless the fact that they are a dirty source is part of what generates the effect, I suspect that a cleaner microwave source like a tunable signal generator and amplifier, or maybe even eventually a fully solid state microwave source, either of which could provide a cleaner signal, at a far greater expense, would be the next step and reduce some of the heat issues.
I think there has been mention back in Thread 5 about the possibility of using a used or surplus signal generaotor/amp system, with a couple of links to sources for used equipement. Budgets and a need for some practical experience with the designs stand in the way of jumping right into that kind of setup and expense.
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#397 by SeeShells on 19 Dec, 2015 15:12
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Yes!If we meet in LA, I'll be there!
I'm curious: what would happen to the output of the magnetron if the power were reduced?
I'm wondering if reducing the power output might "clean-up" the spectrum and concentrate more of the energy within the resonance bandwidth. This might lead to less magnetron heating.
Also, is reducing the output power as simple as this guy claims?
Link: http://danyk.cz/magn2_en.html
To minimize thermal effects, is there any way to conduct more heat through the balance beam?
Or what if the frustum were insulated, and heat was conducted to radiators positioned in opposite directions that wouldn't effect thrust?
edit:
On second thought, the radiators would probably still produce convective effects. But maybe they would help to minimize the convective effects in the thrust direction.
Yang provided the following in her 2013 paper,
"the practical maximum microwave output power is 13 W, 120 W, 85 W, 65 W, 45 W, and 48 W respectively at the nominal output power 200 W, 300 W, 400 W, 500 W, 600 W, and 700 W."
The graph at the link below uses the nominal output power and extends that all of the way to Yangs maximum of 2500 watts. But if you were to use the practical maximum output from the above it would look a bit different... And might suggest that she was getting a better percentage of practical microwave output at the higher nominal powers.
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=39004.0;attach=1087396
I expect that much of that would depend on the magnetron and exactly what frequencies you are trying to lock resonance at..., and how you are trying to control the magnetron output.... Not enough detail on any of that...
... I believe Shell has or is in the process of addressing some of the heat issues you raise. Her magnetron is located remotely from the frustum and her balance beam is non metallic, I think it was a carbon fiber of some sort, with lower thermal expansion.
Magnetrons seem to be a dirty power source for the frustum, but they are the cheap and readily accessible starting point... They are also what Yang and Shawyer were using to make their claims. Ultimately, unless the fact that they are a dirty source is part of what generates the effect, I suspect that a cleaner microwave source like a tunable signal generator and amplifier, or maybe even eventually a fully solid state microwave source, either of which could provide a cleaner signal, at a far greater expense, would be the next step and reduce some of the heat issues.
I think there has been mention back in Thread 5 about the possibility of using a used or surplus signal generaotor/amp system, with a couple of links to sources for used equipement. Budgets and a need for some practical experience with the designs stand in the way of jumping right into that kind of setup and expense.
You nailed it. Although the magnetrons are not the total issue to making dirty RF power. They are used in the semiconductor industry for Thin film sputter coating technology for semiconductors, solar & automotive industries in generation of plasma's where a high quality RF source is needed. The real issue is the power supply driving the magnetron.
The consumer driven microwave industry is driven by cost with glitter on it and the power supplies are the bare minimum to operate and heat food. They are noisy, little filtered and run on a 50% duty cycle with power on/off pulsed to the microwave locked to the incoming power AC frequency of 60 Hz.
The magnetron itself is basically the same across the industry with a few exceptions, maybe with a better cooling system using chilled piping to regulate the heat generated by the magnetron which can cause drifting and some splattering. And maybe a little better construction. The other issue is from the heater element in the magnetron being on during full power runs.
An interesting source for non-semiconductor references that show the different ways magnetrons are used in differing industries and even covers some of the coupling techniques to "get the power out".
https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ostron.de%2FBauelemente%2FWie-funktioniert-ein-Magnetron-Funktionsweise-Wirkungsweise-und-Aufbau-eines-Magnetrons.html&edit-text=
So my goal was to get a clean power source for the magnetron and stabilize the RF output by eliminating splatter and drifts in a commercial brand. I chose a Panasonic model as it used an inverter for the power-supply and could be cleaned up relatively easy to work well enough in the Drive to provide a stable mode generation. It would be better if powered with a clean power supply from the semiconductor industry, but those can be somewhat pricey and you need to make sure the two will work together.
The other alternative is a SS RF generator that can deliver the power spread I want to test at, pricey as well. I will need to go this way on the second generation drive with curved endplates as I'll want to do phase locking with a thermally compensating frustum using some of the same techniques I'm done on my current model.
This build isn't much different than EagleWorks or any other Engineering build, the wants and likes are driven by money and how can you get the most bang for your buck.
Off to some Christmas parties today but will be back at it tomorrow...
Shell
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#398 by OnlyMe on 19 Dec, 2015 15:58
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....
Yes!
You nailed it. Although the magnetrons are not the total issue to making dirty RF power. They are used in the semiconductor industry for Thin film sputter coating technology for semiconductors, solar & automotive industries in generation of plasma's where a high quality RF source is needed. The real issue is the power supply driving the magnetron.
The consumer driven microwave industry is driven by cost with glitter on it and the power supplies are the bare minimum to operate and heat food. They are noisy, little filtered and run on a 50% duty cycle with power on/off pulsed to the microwave locked to the incoming power AC frequency of 60 Hz.
The magnetron itself is basically the same across the industry with a few exceptions, maybe with a better cooling system using chilled piping to regulate the heat generated by the magnetron which can cause drifting and some splattering. And maybe a little better construction. The other issue is from the heater element in the magnetron being on during full power runs.
An interesting source for non-semiconductor references that show the different ways magnetrons are used in differing industries and even covers some of the coupling techniques to "get the power out".
https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ostron.de%2FBauelemente%2FWie-funktioniert-ein-Magnetron-Funktionsweise-Wirkungsweise-und-Aufbau-eines-Magnetrons.html&edit-text=
So my goal was to get a clean power source for the magnetron and stabilize the RF output by eliminating splatter and drifts in a commercial brand. I chose a Panasonic model as it used an inverter for the power-supply and could be cleaned up relatively easy to work well enough in the Drive to provide a stable mode generation. It would be better if powered with a clean power supply from the semiconductor industry, but those can be somewhat pricey and you need to make sure the two will work together.
The other alternative is a SS RF generator that can deliver the power spread I want to test at, pricey as well. I will need to go this way on the second generation drive with curved endplates as I'll want to do phase locking with a thermally compensating frustum using some of the same techniques I'm done on my current model.
This build isn't much different than EagleWorks or any other Engineering build, the wants and likes are driven by money and how can you get the most bang for your buck.
Off to some Christmas parties today but will be back at it tomorrow...
Shell
So from someone who really doesn't know much about the technical detail, it sounds like a pure DC power source might produce a cleaner signal from a magnetron?
Part of what I meant by dirty was not just the MW spectrum but the heat itself. But really other than for experimentally proving and testing.., the added heat would only be an issue to the extent that it cannot be efficiently radiated away. If there is thrust not associated with heat, there is thrust with or without thermal noise. The noise just makes it harder to see any anomalous thrust.
... I keep looking at those numbers from Yang and without more detail on how she got them, they don't really make a great deal of sense. It is really hard to just take her numbers on faith... I mean really she is saying that she gets 170 mN from what she says is effectively 13 watts out of a raw 200 watts...? -
#399 by SeeShells on 19 Dec, 2015 16:26
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Much of what is out there can be questioned and that's not dissing anyone, it's a fact that needs to be taken in consideration whatever your designing. It makes it extraordinary difficult to build something without any solid accepted theories and most data can be called into question. I lost track of the articles, papers, web pages. videos, lectures and images but it numbers somewhere over 20,000 pieces of data just to get somewhat of an idea how and what to build.....
Yes!
You nailed it. Although the magnetrons are not the total issue to making dirty RF power. They are used in the semiconductor industry for Thin film sputter coating technology for semiconductors, solar & automotive industries in generation of plasma's where a high quality RF source is needed. The real issue is the power supply driving the magnetron.
The consumer driven microwave industry is driven by cost with glitter on it and the power supplies are the bare minimum to operate and heat food. They are noisy, little filtered and run on a 50% duty cycle with power on/off pulsed to the microwave locked to the incoming power AC frequency of 60 Hz.
The magnetron itself is basically the same across the industry with a few exceptions, maybe with a better cooling system using chilled piping to regulate the heat generated by the magnetron which can cause drifting and some splattering. And maybe a little better construction. The other issue is from the heater element in the magnetron being on during full power runs.
An interesting source for non-semiconductor references that show the different ways magnetrons are used in differing industries and even covers some of the coupling techniques to "get the power out".
https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ostron.de%2FBauelemente%2FWie-funktioniert-ein-Magnetron-Funktionsweise-Wirkungsweise-und-Aufbau-eines-Magnetrons.html&edit-text=
So my goal was to get a clean power source for the magnetron and stabilize the RF output by eliminating splatter and drifts in a commercial brand. I chose a Panasonic model as it used an inverter for the power-supply and could be cleaned up relatively easy to work well enough in the Drive to provide a stable mode generation. It would be better if powered with a clean power supply from the semiconductor industry, but those can be somewhat pricey and you need to make sure the two will work together.
The other alternative is a SS RF generator that can deliver the power spread I want to test at, pricey as well. I will need to go this way on the second generation drive with curved endplates as I'll want to do phase locking with a thermally compensating frustum using some of the same techniques I'm done on my current model.
This build isn't much different than EagleWorks or any other Engineering build, the wants and likes are driven by money and how can you get the most bang for your buck.
Off to some Christmas parties today but will be back at it tomorrow...
Shell
So from someone who really doesn't know much about the technical detail, it sounds like a pure DC power source might produce a cleaner signal from a magnetron?
Part of what I meant by dirty was not just the MW spectrum but the heat itself. But really other than for experimentally proving and testing.., the added heat would only be an issue to the extent that it cannot be efficiently radiated away. If there is thrust not associated with heat, there is thrust with or without thermal noise. The noise just makes it harder to see any anomalous thrust.
... I keep looking at those numbers from Yang and without more detail on how she got them, they don't really make a great deal of sense. It is really hard to just take her numbers on faith... I mean really she is saying that she gets 170 mN from what she says is effectively 13 watts out of a raw 200 watts...?
Yang's numbers are a little out of the ball park as we say.
Shell
