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#3440 by zen-in on 08 Mar, 2016 02:25
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I've seen others do this, but I think it is important to practice building a frustum before mangling $130 worth of copper.
I ordered my copper today and will be ordering one MHT1003N tomorrow.
An easier way to draw large circles makes use of a trammel compass. The ones shown below were made by Starret, of Athol MA. I have a set I inherited from my father. He used them to loft wings. They are very handy; although my uses are not so lofty.
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#3441 by 1 on 08 Mar, 2016 02:52
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Just a quick jump in here:
I am still unsure why it isn't as simple as piece A is in free space and locks into piece B (like puzzle pieces) in which case they become entangled and rotate with angular momentum, and if left undisturbed they remain entangled (rotating) even when separated such that when observed periodically the answer is yep, they are still 180 degrees out of phase and rotating with angular momentum. I would think the only hidden variable would be how they lock together and exchange momentum to reach equilibrium rotation.
Remember, Einstein called it spooky at a distance. It's easy to accept entanglement of two particles when piece A locks into piece B (i.e., they're right next to each other). The fact that there doesn't seem to be a theoretical limit to how far apart the particles need to be is what gave Einstein the heeby-jeebies.
This all boils down to what it means to collapse and re-expand a wavefunction; proper interpretation of which is still under debate today. Various hidden variable theories, such as pilot waves, have been proposed; although for the most part, it's not known how to test them. But for normal vanilla missionary QM, a collapse in the wavefunction of one entangled particle immediately causes the collapse of the wavefunction in another; and that other particle can be very, very far away. Now generally speaking, any collapse will break entanglement as the particles have now interacted with something other than each other; and the particles would need to be brought back near each other in order to re-entangle. So no faster-than-light communication. But still, the wavefunction of one particle being affected by the collapse of another, a billion light years away? Einstein always figured there must be some kind of unexplained, underlying physical interpretation to this phenomenon beyond mere mathematical consequence. That's the hidden variable being sought; and until wavefunction collapse takes on a more profound meaning, it'll probably stay hidden for some time. Particles taking on paired values is a-ok, even in the classical world.
Back to EM-stuff now.... -
#3442 by tleach on 08 Mar, 2016 02:54
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Emdrive theory and Quantum Entanglement - Spent a lot of time refreshing myself on basic QM this weekend, looking for anything new and how it might relate. Its a familiar rabbit hole with lots of Sean Carroll type Multiverse and Ron Garrett type Zero Universe pronouncements.
I've always liked the idea of entanglement in one form or another... How about this.
What if the modes produced in the frustum are somehow simulating a system featuring quantum entanglement http://arxiv.org/abs/1502.07002v2? And what if the that simulated quantum entanglement is close enough to the real thing to create excess mass, however briefly, within the frustum https://medium.com/the-physics-arxiv-blog/entanglement-makes-quantum-particles-measurably-heavier-says-quantum-theorist-6fbd1e1e3eee#.15m6mggdl and http://journals.aps.org/prb/abstract/10.1103/PhysRevB.42.7885? If we have transient mass fluctuations within the frustum, then we just need to apply Mach's Conjecture and BAM!, the EM Drive is a Quantum Entanglement Powered Mach Effect Thruster!
QEPMET? -
#3443 by mwvp on 08 Mar, 2016 02:59
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I've seen others do this, but I think it is important to practice building a frustum before mangling $130 worth of copper.
I ordered my copper today and will be ordering one MHT1003N tomorrow.
You probably don't need to anyone to recommend a circulator or isolator to use with the transistor. Please let us know what you use, where from and how much. I'm looking for an S band circulator too. Thanks. -
#3444 by mwvp on 08 Mar, 2016 03:14
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Superconducting RF Cavities might not need cryogenics after all. This preprint appeared today:
373 K Superconductors
Unlike most HTS discussions this one showed actual test articles etc. Of course, it'll need extensive replication by other labs - something slowed down by the inventor's patent applications - but it could be very exciting indeed.
If the guy is making THz waves at high efficiency, then that alone is incredible. The Room Temp superconductors doubly so.
Very exciting. Fusion reactors, fusion rockets, high power motors, maglevs, death rays. Too cool! I hunted around for more info, didn't find anything other than an earlier paper by the author at arxiv.
I found this last week on the pop science rag "Space Daily" I foolishly read to very poorly inform me about exciting stuff:
"The special theory of relativity has been disproved theoretically"
http://www.spacedaily.com/reports/The_special_theory_of_relativity_has_been_disproved_theoretically_999.html
So I figured I'd post the article here to preempt the inevitable profound discouragement, disillusionment and suicides that otherwise might occur when our hopes are cruelly dashed my merciless reality.
It seems someone at Space Daily has a sore posterior
QuoteAAAS Eureka Alert press service is generally very reliable and this is the first time we have encountered this problem.
On the basis of multiple emails - many of which were rude and abusive by highly credentialed people who should have better manners given their senior position, the article will be withdrawn.
For those having nothing better to do but find personal fault with myself they can follow the above links and lose their breakfast, lunch and dinner elsewhere.
Just because that odious man [irrelevant political reference omitted] has set the bar so low for public discourse it does not follow that we all need to emulate him in our own discourse with others.
My apologies to those grossly offended by the occasional publication error. Also if the comments thread below is lost it can happen sometimes due to the way Facebook manages comment threads when articles are substantially updated.
The article is now withdrawn.
ROTFLMAO. Caveat Emptor, r, whatever folks. -
#3445 by rfmwguy on 08 Mar, 2016 12:03
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Mwvp...lol! Nice find. Guess I discovered similar reactions against emdrive experiments and theories on other forums. A veritable scientific food fight since the emdrive isn't supposed to work and hostility takes control of a keyboard. Kind of sad. Glad its elsewhere and not here for the most part.
The emdrive possibilities need to be narrowed down by experimentation. First replicate, confirm a force, then measure the environs, heat, air currents. E & H fields, ions, yada yada.
Guess what's been the most surprising is the apparent unwillingness by institutions to approach it purely from a debunking standpoint...rather than dismissing offhand, a prof leads a bunch of students to provide evidence of measurement error...something people opine about but haven't proven experimentally.
I'd suggest a forward thinking professor gather his students to debunk or prove a deep space propulsion device, the emdrive. Read the T1-T6 info here, check out the emdrive.wiki pages and jump onto Rodal's Institutional emdrive pages here on NSF.
The pace is slower and more aligned with classical lab studies for colleges and universities. Here, its fast and furious (aka adhd) and could distract a focused research team...oh look...a robin in my yard
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#3446 by Monomorphic on 08 Mar, 2016 12:28
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An easier way to draw large circles makes use of a trammel compass. The ones shown below were made by Starret, of Athol MA. I have a set I inherited from my father. He used them to loft wings. They are very handy; although my uses are not so lofty.
Thanks. Looks like it would be easy enough to build a set of these as well. I doubt I will hand draw my final cut lines though - will likely work up the final pattern in adobe illustrator.
By the way, this cone pattern calculator worked perfectly. Even with the material being cardboard, my dimensions were right on. http://craig-russell.co.uk/demos/cone_calculator/ -
#3447 by mwvp on 08 Mar, 2016 16:38
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Mwvp...lol! Nice find. Guess I discovered similar reactions against emdrive experiments and theories on other forums. A veritable scientific food fight since the emdrive isn't supposed to work and hostility takes control of a keyboard. Kind of sad. Glad its elsewhere and not here for the most part.
The emdrive possibilities need to be narrowed down by experimentation. First replicate, confirm a force, then measure the environs, heat, air currents. E & H fields, ions, yada yada.
Guess what's been the most surprising is the apparent unwillingness by institutions to approach it purely from a debunking standpoint...rather than dismissing offhand, a prof leads a bunch of students to provide evidence of measurement error...something people opine about but haven't proven experimentally.
I should have stated I like to read about sensational, revolutionary and paradigm-changing articles, but in an appropriate context with links and technical details. Space Daily just did a cut & paste job, with no links or context, leaving it to the reader (and they take their readers to be quite ignorant because they dumb-down and pad articles with fluff) to find more info with sparse details. So I revel with gleeful schadenfreude at the result, in this instants.
I like fringe research, and condemn not applaud censorship. The only post I got censored here was one on a professor Cahill's Galiliean relativity/aether theory results using a zener diode, which I posted as a suggestion to detect any 'aether' currents that could be present. I found Cahill at the Natural Philosophy Alliance youtube channel. Full of excellent fringe stuff I love. I withhold judgement till I do the experiments or math, but weigh the current consensus also. No need to censor anything, when you state details and context, which Space Daily most often doesn't.
To his credit, Roger Shawyer provided far more details than Kostadinov on superconductors, enough to replicate his results. Far more deserving of being taken seriously, IMHO. Even if his theory is lacking, experimental results should be evaluated on their own merit. Kostadinov says nothing about the compound or methods tested. -
#3448 by Monomorphic on 08 Mar, 2016 22:54
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Just received confirmation of MHT1003NR3 order, so I wanted to go ahead a reveal my build. As you can see in the two attached images, the experiment can be ran as a standard interferometer or a white-juday warp-field interferometer.
In standard mode, I can measure displacement in the range of nanometers. The white-juday mode requires drilling holes into the end-plates so the laser can pass through the center of the frustum - so I expect this would be done after standard interferometer experiments are completed.
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#3449 by rfmwguy on 09 Mar, 2016 00:16
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Just received confirmation of MHT1003NR3 order, so I wanted to go ahead a reveal my build. As you can see in the two attached images, the experiment can be ran as a standard interferometer or a white-juday warp-field interferometer.
Lookin good sir, before drilling, you may consider external laser paths parallel and close to frustums end plates and perhaps sides. Thermals may be an issue internal or external but near-field measurements outside could indicate an open system. I'm like several others, if the system is closed, coe and com problems could arise. Fwiw...look forward to the build.
In standard mode, I can measure displacement in the range of nanometers. The white-juday mode requires drilling holes into the end-plates so the laser can pass through the center of the frustum - so I expect this would be done after standard interferometer experiments are completed. -
#3450 by rfmwguy on 09 Mar, 2016 14:04
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NSF-1701A Build Update - To lap or not to lap.
Lapping is method of precision surfacing, IOW making something as flat as possible. I decided to do this for the end plates of the frustum. So I took the 1/8 inch copper disk that I had roughly polished and started manually lapping the disk thanks to a local who gave me some lapping disks, polish and a lot of useful information. His job was to optically polish disks for mil/aero stuff he could not talk about. Fair enough.
I've got a Huuuge goal ahead of me, a 100X force improvement, so "perfection in reflection" is one of the things I am trying. Now, to what I found...
The flat 1/8 inch copper plate from the vendor is far from flat; thanks to manufacturing tolerances, shipping, my handling, etc. It has taken me 4 hours (total) of lapping with my lapping plate and wheel and I just now got it to where all surface imperfections are almost gone, except for the sandpaper striations.
It was 60 to 220 grit sanding, so it is only rough finishing. Diamond cutting wheels are only as good as the lapping plate they're on, and way too expensive for this home-boy, so hand lapping is what I'm doing.
Where this will lead is up through 2000 grit sandpaper and 3 types of polish: 9, 5 and 3 micron. Yes, I said 3 micron...optically near flat and perfect. This I have chosen for both the inner surfaces of the top and bottom plates. Will it help? Not sure, but it certainly won't hurt.
In the process, I'm learning something new in the shop...never a bad thing. Pics will follow a bit later. Oh, here's what the big boys use for large disks:.jpg)
p.s. I received a quote for this entire process from a Chicago shop: $675 for 100 microns minimum. -
#3451 by Monomorphic on 09 Mar, 2016 14:40
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I used water jet cutting for my frustums. It will leave a light burr on the backside but can be removed.
Do you recall what that cost? -
#3452 by SeeShells on 09 Mar, 2016 15:08
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$260 was the minimum charge of the first ones I did, but I found another one if I supplied the DXF files to cut, they would do it for a $100 minimum. Which was better. I'm not cheap, but I'm frugal.I used water jet cutting for my frustums. It will leave a light burr on the backside but can be removed.
Do you recall what that cost?
I was told by someone else you can also use a router and build a jig to cut circles, I thought it was worth a try, although the end product wasn't quite good enough considering the time I spent making the jig and the quality of cut I got. The copper tended to bind and fill around the cutting tool.
I have a band saw that I've been thinking of using and make a jig to do it too. I can mount a rough cut piece of copper to a piece of dense particle board and with a 18 tpi blade, cut out the endplates. I've used this trick before and the key was to use wax to bond the copper sheet to the dense particle board. You can heat up the particle board in the oven to ~375-400F, wipe the wax onto the particle board and then slide the copper sheet onto it. Take it off the same way and then it's easy to just clean up the wax.
Food for thought this morning.
Shell
PS: Make sure you use a particle board with a smooth painted surface or a bonded veneer. -
#3453 by rq3 on 09 Mar, 2016 21:20
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NSF-1701A Build Update - To lap or not to lap.
Lapping is method of precision surfacing, IOW making something as flat as possible. I decided to do this for the end plates of the frustum. So I took the 1/8 inch copper disk that I had roughly polished and started manually lapping the disk thanks to a local who gave me some lapping disks, polish and a lot of useful information. His job was to optically polish disks for mil/aero stuff he could not talk about. Fair enough.
I've got a Huuuge goal ahead of me, a 100X force improvement, so "perfection in reflection" is one of the things I am trying. Now, to what I found...
The flat 1/8 inch copper plate from the vendor is far from flat; thanks to manufacturing tolerances, shipping, my handling, etc. It has taken me 4 hours (total) of lapping with my lapping plate and wheel and I just now got it to where all surface imperfections are almost gone, except for the sandpaper striations.
It was 60 to 220 grit sanding, so it is only rough finishing. Diamond cutting wheels are only as good as the lapping plate they're on, and way too expensive for this home-boy, so hand lapping is what I'm doing.
Where this will lead is up through 2000 grit sandpaper and 3 types of polish: 9, 5 and 3 micron. Yes, I said 3 micron...optically near flat and perfect. This I have chosen for both the inner surfaces of the top and bottom plates. Will it help? Not sure, but it certainly won't hurt.
In the process, I'm learning something new in the shop...never a bad thing. Pics will follow a bit later. Oh, here's what the big boys use for large disks:
p.s. I received a quote for this entire process from a Chicago shop: $675 for 100 microns minimum.
For a 0.125 inch thick OFHC (oxygen free high conductivity) copper plate, I would expect to first surface the plate in a milling machine with a fly cutter (trepanning tool). This will get you to less than 0.001 inch flatness.
OFHC copper is very "gummy" in machinists' terms. It likes to stick to the cutting tool, and tear. This also applies to lapping. The cutting tool, whether a single point or lapping compound, needs to be constantly and liberally flooded with lubricant and abrasive.
Also note that lapping any material requires that the lapping tool be softer than the item being lapped. This is so that the lapping compound will embed in the tool, and not be stripped by the lapped item.
See any of an infinite number of article on amateur telescope mirror grinding, which typically use pitch (purified asphalt) as the lapping tool for glass.
For flat lapping copper, I would recommend a scived sheet of lead (see McMaster-Carr) as the tool, with graded diamond paste once you are past the "sandpaper on a sheet of glass" stage. Backing the lead sheet with a slab of plate glass, or a good tablesaw cast iron bed would be ideal.
You will need a fresh lapping tool for each grit. Amateur telescope makers take great pains to avoid thermal imprints from their hands from distorting the glass mirror blank during this process. With a little care, 1/4 visible light wavelength is easily and regularly done, with surface finished better than 0.1 micron. I've watched a good friend rough out (parabolize) a 10 inch Pyrex blank in about 20 minutes using driveway gravel on a bet. Yes, the final figuring and polishing took a tad longer, but not as much as you might think.
Hope this helps. It's an easily mastered technique, with a lot of history behind it. Trying to re-invent it is not a good use of your valuable time. In short, trying to lap metal, especially a soft one like OFHC copper, on a flat, continuous surface of abrasive is phenomenally inefficient, and will NOT give you the flatness and polish you would think you would get. What you WILL get is a slightly curved surface with a lot of scratches in it. -
#3454 by rq3 on 09 Mar, 2016 21:27
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$260 was the minimum charge of the first ones I did, but I found another one if I supplied the DXF files to cut, they would do it for a $100 minimum. Which was better. I'm not cheap, but I'm frugal.I used water jet cutting for my frustums. It will leave a light burr on the backside but can be removed.
Do you recall what that cost?
I was told by someone else you can also use a router and build a jig to cut circles, I thought it was worth a try, although the end product wasn't quite good enough considering the time I spent making the jig and the quality of cut I got. The copper tended to bind and fill around the cutting tool.
I have a band saw that I've been thinking of using and make a jig to do it too. I can mount a rough cut piece of copper to a piece of dense particle board and with a 18 tpi blade, cut out the endplates. I've used this trick before and the key was to use wax to bond the copper sheet to the dense particle board. You can heat up the particle board in the oven to ~375-400F, wipe the wax onto the particle board and then slide the copper sheet onto it. Take it off the same way and then it's easy to just clean up the wax.
Food for thought this morning.
Shell
PS: Make sure you use a particle board with a smooth painted surface or a bonded veneer.
Shell, a few more thoughts from someone who has machined far too much OFHC copper. It is a nasty, "sticky" metal. Don't even think about using carbide cutters. High speed tool steel router bits, preferably flooded with coolant, work extremely well for pattern routing copper. The next best thing from flood coolant is...bacon grease. Never climb cut, and watch your fingers! If the tool grabs the work, don't argue with it! It will win every time. I've been doing this for over 40 years, and still have all of my fingers. -
#3455 by SeeShells on 09 Mar, 2016 22:22
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Great advise!
$260 was the minimum charge of the first ones I did, but I found another one if I supplied the DXF files to cut, they would do it for a $100 minimum. Which was better. I'm not cheap, but I'm frugal.I used water jet cutting for my frustums. It will leave a light burr on the backside but can be removed.
Do you recall what that cost?
I was told by someone else you can also use a router and build a jig to cut circles, I thought it was worth a try, although the end product wasn't quite good enough considering the time I spent making the jig and the quality of cut I got. The copper tended to bind and fill around the cutting tool.
I have a band saw that I've been thinking of using and make a jig to do it too. I can mount a rough cut piece of copper to a piece of dense particle board and with a 18 tpi blade, cut out the endplates. I've used this trick before and the key was to use wax to bond the copper sheet to the dense particle board. You can heat up the particle board in the oven to ~375-400F, wipe the wax onto the particle board and then slide the copper sheet onto it. Take it off the same way and then it's easy to just clean up the wax.
Food for thought this morning.
Shell
PS: Make sure you use a particle board with a smooth painted surface or a bonded veneer.
Shell, a few more thoughts from someone who has machined far too much OFHC copper. It is a nasty, "sticky" metal. Don't even think about using carbide cutters. High speed tool steel router bits, preferably flooded with coolant, work extremely well for pattern routing copper. The next best thing from flood coolant is...bacon grease. Never climb cut, and watch your fingers! If the tool grabs the work, don't argue with it! It will win every time. I've been doing this for over 40 years, and still have all of my fingers.
When I had my company we had a nice machine shop setup that was great for prototyping and even doing assy work. I had more than a few hours in it, but not like your 40 years... and you have all your fingers!
Bacon grease! That is the very first time I've heard of that, but it makes sense, I had a machinist who swore by petroleum jelly. He ran out of petroleum jelly once and used Vicks Vaporub, we all breathed better that day.
I'll remember the bacon grease, a good tip.
Thanks,
Shell
PS: I did use a steel router bit.
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#3456 by 1 on 09 Mar, 2016 22:53
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I can see it now:
Still no anomalous thrust, but man the shop smells DELICIOUS!
Shell -
#3457 by rfmwguy on 09 Mar, 2016 23:57
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Did someone say bacon?
Rq3...many thanks on your expert advice. Yes copper is sticky to tools and difficult to polish. I wish I had a fluid recycling setup. A minute or 2 with dry sanding fills up the paper quickly. Shopvac to the temporary rescue.
I saw a makeshift lapping machine made with a potters wheel setup. As usual, price is too high for budget and future use too limited. I'll try and video what I'm doing by hand. 3 micron will definitely take time but not going for something like 100 angstrom or 0.01 microns. If I see a big improvement in displacement, perhaps I will. Thanks again for the useful info. -
#3458 by Bob Woods on 10 Mar, 2016 00:01
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I can see it now:
Still no anomalous thrust, but man the shop smells DELICIOUS!
Shell
Well, I've seen a copy of the Stanley Cup made out of bacon. Why not go all the way for a Bacon EM drive?
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#3459 by Monomorphic on 10 Mar, 2016 00:04
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Onlinemetals.com does not mess around! Copper arrived today. As well as the battery system for the interferometry laser. I'm expecting the MHT1003NR3 in the next few days.
