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#3380 by rfmwguy on 05 Mar, 2016 13:52
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Like I told a poster on another forum once, Jackson's 1962 Classroom University of Illinois textbook (Chapter 8 to be exact) is fine, but some people want to look beyond classical EM theory.
Except for H fields. Like I told Rodal, I'll dig into the energy state change Dr Anders mentioned to try and determine its CoE counterbalance. IOW, where is the state change drawing from.Ok, stupid question on sputtering ions...
Run the EM drive often enough, wouldn't this show up in the condition of the frustum's interior?
Also, while intriguing, this doesn't seem to address the greatly reduced thrust in vacuum.
It's still a closed system and that's my issue with it. rfmwguy knows since day one I've said give me a hole and I'll give you thrust. I don't see a hole and even ripping copper ions up from the copper and accelerating them into the opposite end the Piper must be paid and conservation met.
Shell
Saying that the oscillatory magnetic field extends to the outside is wrong. Look at the definition of skin depth. The oscillatory magnetic field must fall off exponentially as a function of the coordinate in the thickness direction (the coordinate perpendicular to the surface) being confined mainly to a depth less than the skin depth. With mm thick copper, the oscillatory magnetic field decreases to an infinitesimal amount since the skin depth at 2.45 GHz is in the order of a micrometer.
Instead of "digging Dr. Anders paper" dig "Classical Electrodynamics" by John David Jackson
Recent modeling of H fields do not appear to be confined within the frustum. Like you said once, no H field measurements have been done yet, so why assume based on Jackson? Also, in a monopole arrangement, the frustum itself is the other (di)pole or half of the antenna (of magnetron) load rather than simply a confinement. -
#3381 by Rodal on 05 Mar, 2016 14:00
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Like I told a poster on another forum once, Jackson's 1962 Classroom University of Illinois textbook (Chapter 8 to be exact) is fine, but some people want to look beyond classical EM theory.
Except for H fields. Like I told Rodal, I'll dig into the energy state change Dr Anders mentioned to try and determine its CoE counterbalance. IOW, where is the state change drawing from.Ok, stupid question on sputtering ions...
Run the EM drive often enough, wouldn't this show up in the condition of the frustum's interior?
Also, while intriguing, this doesn't seem to address the greatly reduced thrust in vacuum.
It's still a closed system and that's my issue with it. rfmwguy knows since day one I've said give me a hole and I'll give you thrust. I don't see a hole and even ripping copper ions up from the copper and accelerating them into the opposite end the Piper must be paid and conservation met.
Shell
Saying that the oscillatory magnetic field extends to the outside is wrong. Look at the definition of skin depth. The oscillatory magnetic field must fall off exponentially as a function of the coordinate in the thickness direction (the coordinate perpendicular to the surface) being confined mainly to a depth less than the skin depth. With mm thick copper, the oscillatory magnetic field decreases to an infinitesimal amount since the skin depth at 2.45 GHz is in the order of a micrometer.
Instead of "digging Dr. Anders paper" dig "Classical Electrodynamics" by John David Jackson
Recent modeling of H fields do not appear to be confined within the frustum. Like you said once, no H field measurements have been done yet, so why assume based on Jackson? Also, in a monopole arrangement, the frustum itself is the other (di)pole or half of the antenna (of magnetron) load rather than simply a confinement.
Arguments over basic things like a GigaHertz oscillatory magnetic field penetrating a mm thick copper wall having no holes or gaps, appears to be futile. The team at NASA has not argued such things. The arguments with NASA have been over experimental results, whether the Quantum Vacuum is mutable and degradable, but NASA has not claimed that a truncated cone (as opposed to a cylinder with constant cross section) all of a sudden results in GigaHertz magnetic fields extending to the outside of mm thick copper walls.
If you know of some "New Physics", let's discuss the "New Physics" that makes this cavity so different from all the cavities being used at CERN and other research centers. -
#3382 by rfmwguy on 05 Mar, 2016 14:07
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Probably where we disagree is I am not sure we're dealing with GHz magnetic fields. In fact, its very difficult to find H-Field test gear over 1 GHz. I've looked, believe me.
Like I told a poster on another forum once, Jackson's 1962 Classroom University of Illinois textbook (Chapter 8 to be exact) is fine, but some people want to look beyond classical EM theory.
Except for H fields. Like I told Rodal, I'll dig into the energy state change Dr Anders mentioned to try and determine its CoE counterbalance. IOW, where is the state change drawing from.Ok, stupid question on sputtering ions...
Run the EM drive often enough, wouldn't this show up in the condition of the frustum's interior?
Also, while intriguing, this doesn't seem to address the greatly reduced thrust in vacuum.
It's still a closed system and that's my issue with it. rfmwguy knows since day one I've said give me a hole and I'll give you thrust. I don't see a hole and even ripping copper ions up from the copper and accelerating them into the opposite end the Piper must be paid and conservation met.
Shell
Saying that the oscillatory magnetic field extends to the outside is wrong. Look at the definition of skin depth. The oscillatory magnetic field must fall off exponentially as a function of the coordinate in the thickness direction (the coordinate perpendicular to the surface) being confined mainly to a depth less than the skin depth. With mm thick copper, the oscillatory magnetic field decreases to an infinitesimal amount since the skin depth at 2.45 GHz is in the order of a micrometer.
Instead of "digging Dr. Anders paper" dig "Classical Electrodynamics" by John David Jackson
Recent modeling of H fields do not appear to be confined within the frustum. Like you said once, no H field measurements have been done yet, so why assume based on Jackson? Also, in a monopole arrangement, the frustum itself is the other (di)pole or half of the antenna (of magnetron) load rather than simply a confinement.
I am going to stop posting with you arguing over basic things like conservation of momentum in a closed system and now your arguing that the GigaHertz magnetic field penetrates a mm thick copper wall. Better ways to spend my time
However, the good news is I plan on measuring H-Fields in a couple of months...sub 1 GHz. Also, I am not prepared to declare it a closed system for the above and a couple of other possible reasons. More to come...down the road.
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#3383 by SeeShells on 05 Mar, 2016 14:13
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I used this online resource more than once. Kids nowadays Dr. Rodal have the world at their finger tips.
Except for H fields. Like I told Rodal, I'll dig into the energy state change Dr Anders mentioned to try and determine its CoE counterbalance. IOW, where is the state change drawing from.Ok, stupid question on sputtering ions...
Run the EM drive often enough, wouldn't this show up in the condition of the frustum's interior?
Also, while intriguing, this doesn't seem to address the greatly reduced thrust in vacuum.
It's still a closed system and that's my issue with it. rfmwguy knows since day one I've said give me a hole and I'll give you thrust. I don't see a hole and even ripping copper ions up from the copper and accelerating them into the opposite end the Piper must be paid and conservation met.
Shell
Saying that the oscillatory magnetic field extends to the outside is wrong. Look at the definition of skin depth. The oscillatory magnetic field must fall off exponentially as a function of the coordinate in the thickness direction (the coordinate perpendicular to the surface) being confined mainly to a depth less than the skin depth. With mm thick copper, the oscillatory magnetic field decreases to an infinitesimal amount since the skin depth at 2.45 GHz is in the order of a micrometer.
Instead of "digging Dr. Anders paper" dig "Classical Electrodynamics" by John David Jackson
https://archive.org/stream/ClassicalElectrodynamics/Jackson-ClassicalElectrodynamics#page/n253/mode/2up
The enclosed drive is a closed system that evolves to a state of maximum entropy (which can do no work) regardless of the input energy or distribution of the energy within the closed drive system. Unless you can get outside of it to interact with a lower energy state or interact with a force that penetrates through the walls of the closed system in the EMDrive, it will just sit there.
What penetrates through the walls can be one key to understanding this effect. SpaceTime, gravity and a few particles like neutrinos could interact with what's happening in the frustum. Even in some thoughts I've had involving evanescent wave actions they still involved interaction to the outside.
Shell
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#3384 by Rodal on 05 Mar, 2016 14:25
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I used this online resource more than once. Kids nowadays Dr. Rodal have the world at their finger tips.
Except for H fields. Like I told Rodal, I'll dig into the energy state change Dr Anders mentioned to try and determine its CoE counterbalance. IOW, where is the state change drawing from.Ok, stupid question on sputtering ions...
Run the EM drive often enough, wouldn't this show up in the condition of the frustum's interior?
Also, while intriguing, this doesn't seem to address the greatly reduced thrust in vacuum.
It's still a closed system and that's my issue with it. rfmwguy knows since day one I've said give me a hole and I'll give you thrust. I don't see a hole and even ripping copper ions up from the copper and accelerating them into the opposite end the Piper must be paid and conservation met.
Shell
Saying that the oscillatory magnetic field extends to the outside is wrong. Look at the definition of skin depth. The oscillatory magnetic field must fall off exponentially as a function of the coordinate in the thickness direction (the coordinate perpendicular to the surface) being confined mainly to a depth less than the skin depth. With mm thick copper, the oscillatory magnetic field decreases to an infinitesimal amount since the skin depth at 2.45 GHz is in the order of a micrometer.
Instead of "digging Dr. Anders paper" dig "Classical Electrodynamics" by John David Jackson
https://archive.org/stream/ClassicalElectrodynamics/Jackson-ClassicalElectrodynamics#page/n253/mode/2up
The enclosed drive is a closed system that evolves to a state of maximum entropy (which can do no work) regardless of the input energy or distribution of the energy within the closed drive system. Unless you can get outside of it to interact with a lower energy state or interact with a force that penetrates through the walls of the closed system in the EMDrive, it will just sit there.
What penetrates through the walls can be one key to understanding this effect. SpaceTime, gravity and a few particles like neutrinos could interact with what's happening in the frustum. Even in some thoughts I've had involving evanescent wave actions they still involved interaction to the outside.
Shell
" SpaceTime, gravity and a few particles like neutrinos " and axions, Quantum Vacuum interaction, etc., are possible
. There cannot be evanescent waves outside a good conductor like copper cavity mm thick with no holes or gaps. Evanescent waves are present outside a dielectric material in contact with outside air -or any outside medium having lower index of refraction-, when the angle of internal reflection is equal or greater to the angle of total reflection inside the dielectric. Evanescent waves are not possible outside a good conductor that is mm thick (with no holes or gaps) with gigahertz microwaves inside the metal cavity.
If you know of any contrary example, let us know. Such an example would contravene a huge number of experiments and our knowledge of electromagnetism and materials science (the difference between a dielectric and a conductor), and such a finding would be even more important than whether the EM Drive can work as a form of space propulsion, as there would be myriads of practical uses for such a thing.
(Evanescent waves outside mm thick copper with no holes due to Gigahertz oscillatory fields would imply a breakdown of our physical knowledge).
I think that there is a big difference between proposing "New Science" interactions like coupling of electromagnetism with gravity, spacetime, Quantum Vacuum, dark matter or weakly interacting particles, etc., as a form of propulsion, on one hand and on the other hand to propose a new effect, hereby never experienced, and that runs against our knowledge of material science and electromagnetism like:
* oscillatory gigahertz magnetic fields penetrating a mm thick copper wall
* oscillatory gigahertz evanescent fields outside a mm thick copper wall
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#3385 by SeeShells on 05 Mar, 2016 14:56
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I used this online resource more than once. Kids nowadays Dr. Rodal have the world at their finger tips.
Except for H fields. Like I told Rodal, I'll dig into the energy state change Dr Anders mentioned to try and determine its CoE counterbalance. IOW, where is the state change drawing from.Ok, stupid question on sputtering ions...
Run the EM drive often enough, wouldn't this show up in the condition of the frustum's interior?
Also, while intriguing, this doesn't seem to address the greatly reduced thrust in vacuum.
It's still a closed system and that's my issue with it. rfmwguy knows since day one I've said give me a hole and I'll give you thrust. I don't see a hole and even ripping copper ions up from the copper and accelerating them into the opposite end the Piper must be paid and conservation met.
Shell
Saying that the oscillatory magnetic field extends to the outside is wrong. Look at the definition of skin depth. The oscillatory magnetic field must fall off exponentially as a function of the coordinate in the thickness direction (the coordinate perpendicular to the surface) being confined mainly to a depth less than the skin depth. With mm thick copper, the oscillatory magnetic field decreases to an infinitesimal amount since the skin depth at 2.45 GHz is in the order of a micrometer.
Instead of "digging Dr. Anders paper" dig "Classical Electrodynamics" by John David Jackson
https://archive.org/stream/ClassicalElectrodynamics/Jackson-ClassicalElectrodynamics#page/n253/mode/2up
The enclosed drive is a closed system that evolves to a state of maximum entropy (which can do no work) regardless of the input energy or distribution of the energy within the closed drive system. Unless you can get outside of it to interact with a lower energy state or interact with a force that penetrates through the walls of the closed system in the EMDrive, it will just sit there.
What penetrates through the walls can be one key to understanding this effect. SpaceTime, gravity and a few particles like neutrinos could interact with what's happening in the frustum. Even in some thoughts I've had involving evanescent wave actions they still involved interaction to the outside.
Shell
" SpaceTime, gravity and a few particles like neutrinos " and axions, Quantum Vacuum interaction, etc., are possible. There cannot be evanescent waves outside a good conductor like copper cavity mm thick with no holes or gaps. Evanescent waves are present outside a dielectric material in contact with outside air -or any outside medium having lower index of refraction-, when the angle of internal reflection is equal or greater to the angle of total reflection inside the dielectric. Evanescent waves are not possible outside a good conductor that is mm thick (with no holes or gaps) with gigahertz microwaves inside the metal cavity.
If you know of any contrary example, let us know. Such an example would contravene a huge number of experiments and our knowledge of electromagnetism and materials science (the difference between a dielectric and a conductor), and such a finding would be even more important than whether the EM Drive can work as a form of space propulsion, as there would be myriads of practical uses for such a thing.
(Evanescent waves outside mm thick copper with no holes due to Gigahertz oscillatory fields would imply a breakdown of our physical knowledge).
I think that there is a big difference between proposing "New Science" interactions like coupling of electromagnetism with gravity, spacetime, Quantum Vacuum, dark matter or weakly interacting particles, etc., as a form of propulsion, on one hand and on the other hand to propose a new effect, hereby never experienced like:
* oscillatory gigahertz magnetic fields penetrating a mm thick copper wall without walls
* oscillatory gigahertz evanescent fields outside a mm thick copper wall without walls
That is absolutely correct Dr. Rodal. We have talked about this before.
There are fields outside of the frustum according to simulations but they are very low.
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#3386 by Rodal on 05 Mar, 2016 15:02
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...
Numerical simulations (solving Maxwell's equations) showing significant amplitude of gigahertz electromagnetic fields outside mm thick copper cavities with no holes or gaps, are plain wrong.
There are fields outside of the frustum according to simulations but they are very low.
If anybody obtains such an output, the numerical solution should be inspected to find the source of the error.
I always had my staff conduct comparisons of numerical solutions to exact solutions and to conduct convergence studies of the numerical solution, rather than accepting the numerical solutions as true. We uncovered a large number of errors in commercial codes and notified the computer code developers, who were always thankful and corrected the errors in their newer updates (which unfortunately invariably brought up new bugs that had to be corrected ).
Actually, one thing that I liked very much about codes like ANSYS is that ANSYS promptly notified their users of a list of existing numerical errors. Does FEKO have such a list available ? (No computer code is free of computer bugs and errors).
Even when finding errors in the computer codes, we could usually figure out a work around. -
#3387 by SeeShells on 05 Mar, 2016 15:13
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http://ab-initio.mit.edu/wiki/index.php/Meep...
Numerical simulations (solving Maxwell's equations) showing significant amplitude of gigahertz electromagnetic fields outside mm thick copper cavities with no holes or gaps, are plain wrong.
There are fields outside of the frustum according to simulations but they are very low.
If anybody obtains such an output, the numerical solution should be inspected to find the source of the error.
I always had my staff conduct comparisons of numerical solutions to exact solutions and to conduct convergence studies of the numerical solution, rather than accepting as true. We uncovered a huge number of errors in commercial codes and notified the computer code developers, who were always thankful and corrected the errors in their newer updates (which unfortunately invariably brought up new bugs that had to be corrected ).
Even when finding errors in the computer codes, we could usually figure out a work around, that would prevent the error.
Meep was a product of MIT and if there are discrepancies in the coding that show external fields where they should not, maybe it should be addressed, meep implies that the H field is getting out and we even see it in the simulations from FEKO. This bothers me.
If we also think of the frustum as a large antenna with a RF source internally it doesn't seem so far fetched either.
Shell -
#3388 by Rodal on 05 Mar, 2016 15:21
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..
http://ab-initio.mit.edu/wiki/index.php/Meep
Meep was a product of MIT and if there are discrepancies in the coding that show external fields where they should not, maybe it should be addressed, meep implies that the H field is getting out and we even see it in the simulations from FEKO. This bothers me.
If we also think of the frustum as a large antenna with a RF source internally it doesn't seem so far fetched either.
Shell
1) There are no significant electromagnetic fields outside a mm thick copper cavity with no holes (*) shown in any Meep analysis to my knowledge. What there was, according to my recollection is the failure of people to understand that a field that was several orders of magnitude smaller outside the cavity represents an insignificant magnitude. There was a failure of people to understand that the field decays exponentially, asymptotically to zero. The field is never a perfect zero, only at an infinite distance is a perfect zero. There was a failure of people to understand what constitutes a significant magnitude. There was a failure of people to understand that it makes no sense to look at Meep images that had no numerical magnitudes associated with them and to discuss the magnitude of the field outside without knowing its magnitude.
2) Due to my academic, institutional and commercial research experience writing, developing and using codes, it doesn't bother me in the least that numerical solutions may show a field outside a cavity. If the field outside is insignificant, then there is nothing to argue about. If the numerical code shows a significant gigahertz field outside a mm thick copper cavity with no holes or gaps (in contradiction to Maxwell's equations) then the solution of Maxwell's equations is incorrect: garbage in, garbage out, or there is an error in the code. These numerical codes (FEKO, COMSOL, etc.) are solving Maxwells' equations, as discussed in Jackson and other textbooks. The skin depth diminishes with increasing frequency of the electromagnetic field.
___________
(*) Aero, on purpose, run some Meep analysis with gaps in the model, to study how electromagnetic fields could escape through holes or gaps in the EM Drive.
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#3389 by SeeShells on 05 Mar, 2016 15:36
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..
http://ab-initio.mit.edu/wiki/index.php/Meep
Meep was a product of MIT and if there are discrepancies in the coding that show external fields where they should not, maybe it should be addressed, meep implies that the H field is getting out and we even see it in the simulations from FEKO. This bothers me.
If we also think of the frustum as a large antenna with a RF source internally it doesn't seem so far fetched either.
Shell
1) There are no significant electromagnetic fields outside a mm thick copper cavity with no holes shown in any Meep analysis to my knowledge. What there was, according to my recollection is the failure of people to understand that a field that was several orders of magnitude smaller outside the cavity represents an insignificant magnitude. There was a failure of people to understand that it makes no sense to look at Meep images that had no numerical magnitudes associated with them. There was a failure of people to understand that fractal resuls were purely a numerical artifact.
2) Due to my academic, institutional and commercial research experience writing, developing and using codes, it doesn't bother me in the least that numerical solutions may show a field outside a cavity. If the field outside is insignificant, then there is nothing to argue about. If the numerical code shows a significant field outside then the solution of Maxwell's equations is incorrect: garbage in, garbage out, or there is an error in the code.
Been working with computers and GITO for decades Dr. Rodal. You have had a lot more detailed hands on and education in simulation software and I'm not questioning your extraordinary capabilities in this field. I also remember that we went through the numbers to realize that the fields were down in the 10^-11 or some outrageous low figure.
Before I lost my system a few moths back I had antenna modeling software installed. I had modeled the frustum as an antenna. I think I need to reinstall it again and model it again.
Shell -
#3390 by Rodal on 05 Mar, 2016 15:40
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..
http://ab-initio.mit.edu/wiki/index.php/Meep
Meep was a product of MIT and if there are discrepancies in the coding that show external fields where they should not, maybe it should be addressed, meep implies that the H field is getting out and we even see it in the simulations from FEKO. This bothers me.
If we also think of the frustum as a large antenna with a RF source internally it doesn't seem so far fetched either.
Shell
1) There are no significant electromagnetic fields outside a mm thick copper cavity with no holes shown in any Meep analysis to my knowledge. What there was, according to my recollection is the failure of people to understand that a field that was several orders of magnitude smaller outside the cavity represents an insignificant magnitude. There was a failure of people to understand that it makes no sense to look at Meep images that had no numerical magnitudes associated with them. There was a failure of people to understand that fractal resuls were purely a numerical artifact.
2) Due to my academic, institutional and commercial research experience writing, developing and using codes, it doesn't bother me in the least that numerical solutions may show a field outside a cavity. If the field outside is insignificant, then there is nothing to argue about. If the numerical code shows a significant field outside then the solution of Maxwell's equations is incorrect: garbage in, garbage out, or there is an error in the code.
Been working with computers and GITO for decades Dr. Rodal. You have had a lot more detailed hands on and education in simulation software and I'm not questioning your extraordinary capabilities in this field. I also remember that we went through the numbers to realize that the fields were down in the 10^-11 or some outrageous low figure.
Before I lost my system a few moths back I had antenna modeling software installed. I had modeled the frustum as an antenna. I think I need to reinstall it again and model it again.
Shell
Also, please remember that Aero on purpose, run some Meep analysis with gaps in the model, to study how electromagnetic fields could escape through holes or gaps in the EM Drive (for example, as a result of lack of hermetically joining or sealing the EM Drive copper construction.). There is no theoretical or experimental contradiction with existing knowledge, for electromagnetic fields to escape through holes or gaps. -
#3391 by SeeShells on 05 Mar, 2016 15:53
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I remember that Dr. Rodal and also the inserts that were used...
http://ab-initio.mit.edu/wiki/index.php/Meep
Meep was a product of MIT and if there are discrepancies in the coding that show external fields where they should not, maybe it should be addressed, meep implies that the H field is getting out and we even see it in the simulations from FEKO. This bothers me.
If we also think of the frustum as a large antenna with a RF source internally it doesn't seem so far fetched either.
Shell
1) There are no significant electromagnetic fields outside a mm thick copper cavity with no holes shown in any Meep analysis to my knowledge. What there was, according to my recollection is the failure of people to understand that a field that was several orders of magnitude smaller outside the cavity represents an insignificant magnitude. There was a failure of people to understand that it makes no sense to look at Meep images that had no numerical magnitudes associated with them. There was a failure of people to understand that fractal resuls were purely a numerical artifact.
2) Due to my academic, institutional and commercial research experience writing, developing and using codes, it doesn't bother me in the least that numerical solutions may show a field outside a cavity. If the field outside is insignificant, then there is nothing to argue about. If the numerical code shows a significant field outside then the solution of Maxwell's equations is incorrect: garbage in, garbage out, or there is an error in the code.
Been working with computers and GITO for decades Dr. Rodal. You have had a lot more detailed hands on and education in simulation software and I'm not questioning your extraordinary capabilities in this field. I also remember that we went through the numbers to realize that the fields were down in the 10^-11 or some outrageous low figure.
Before I lost my system a few moths back I had antenna modeling software installed. I had modeled the frustum as an antenna. I think I need to reinstall it again and model it again.
Shell
Also, please remember that Aero on purpose, run some Meep analysis with gaps in the model, to study how electromagnetic fields could escape through holes or gaps in the EM Drive.
Shell
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#3392 by rfmwguy on 05 Mar, 2016 16:09
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Food for thought Shell, Lenz's Law should propagate a counter-emf outside the copper frustum provided the wall thickness is less that 1 wavelength, i.e. 12 cm...
http://ab-initio.mit.edu/wiki/index.php/Meep
Meep was a product of MIT and if there are discrepancies in the coding that show external fields where they should not, maybe it should be addressed, meep implies that the H field is getting out and we even see it in the simulations from FEKO. This bothers me.
If we also think of the frustum as a large antenna with a RF source internally it doesn't seem so far fetched either.
Shell
1) There are no significant electromagnetic fields outside a mm thick copper cavity with no holes shown in any Meep analysis to my knowledge. What there was, according to my recollection is the failure of people to understand that a field that was several orders of magnitude smaller outside the cavity represents an insignificant magnitude. There was a failure of people to understand that it makes no sense to look at Meep images that had no numerical magnitudes associated with them. There was a failure of people to understand that fractal resuls were purely a numerical artifact.
2) Due to my academic, institutional and commercial research experience writing, developing and using codes, it doesn't bother me in the least that numerical solutions may show a field outside a cavity. If the field outside is insignificant, then there is nothing to argue about. If the numerical code shows a significant field outside then the solution of Maxwell's equations is incorrect: garbage in, garbage out, or there is an error in the code.
Been working with computers and GITO for decades Dr. Rodal. You have had a lot more detailed hands on and education in simulation software and I'm not questioning your extraordinary capabilities in this field. I also remember that we went through the numbers to realize that the fields were down in the 10^-11 or some outrageous low figure.
Before I lost my system a few moths back I had antenna modeling software installed. I had modeled the frustum as an antenna. I think I need to reinstall it again and model it again.
Shell -
#3393 by rq3 on 05 Mar, 2016 16:14
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You might want to check the scaling on the refl coeff...Its reading 0.98 and should probably be 0.02. Also try return loss in dB as indexThanks...before I forget, did the sweep of my cavity also generate an s11 chart or reflection coeff chart?
Yes. I requested the S11 this time.
See if any of these help. There are a ton of different graphs available when I run S parameters.
I'm not sure that these plots mean anything. Keep in mind that scattering parameter (S-Parms) are, by definition, constrained to a 50 ohm system UNLESS otherwise normalized to some other CONSTANT impedance.
In the plots, a log VSWR of 40, implies a reflection coefficient of almost exactly 1, in disagreement with the reflection coefficient plot at resonance (?)
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#3394 by SeeShells on 05 Mar, 2016 16:35
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A free snack? Thanks for the input.
Food for thought Shell, Lenz's Law should propagate a counter-emf outside the coper frustum provided the wall thickness is less that 1 wavelength, i.e. 12 cm...
http://ab-initio.mit.edu/wiki/index.php/Meep
Meep was a product of MIT and if there are discrepancies in the coding that show external fields where they should not, maybe it should be addressed, meep implies that the H field is getting out and we even see it in the simulations from FEKO. This bothers me.
If we also think of the frustum as a large antenna with a RF source internally it doesn't seem so far fetched either.
Shell
1) There are no significant electromagnetic fields outside a mm thick copper cavity with no holes shown in any Meep analysis to my knowledge. What there was, according to my recollection is the failure of people to understand that a field that was several orders of magnitude smaller outside the cavity represents an insignificant magnitude. There was a failure of people to understand that it makes no sense to look at Meep images that had no numerical magnitudes associated with them. There was a failure of people to understand that fractal resuls were purely a numerical artifact.
2) Due to my academic, institutional and commercial research experience writing, developing and using codes, it doesn't bother me in the least that numerical solutions may show a field outside a cavity. If the field outside is insignificant, then there is nothing to argue about. If the numerical code shows a significant field outside then the solution of Maxwell's equations is incorrect: garbage in, garbage out, or there is an error in the code.
Been working with computers and GITO for decades Dr. Rodal. You have had a lot more detailed hands on and education in simulation software and I'm not questioning your extraordinary capabilities in this field. I also remember that we went through the numbers to realize that the fields were down in the 10^-11 or some outrageous low figure.
Before I lost my system a few moths back I had antenna modeling software installed. I had modeled the frustum as an antenna. I think I need to reinstall it again and model it again.
Shell
Either this is a lampshade or an antenna, can you argue against that thought?
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#3395 by Rodal on 05 Mar, 2016 16:50
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Food for thought Shell, Lenz's Law should propagate a counter-emf outside the copper frustum provided the wall thickness is less that 1 wavelength, i.e. 12 cm...
http://ab-initio.mit.edu/wiki/index.php/Meep
Meep was a product of MIT and if there are discrepancies in the coding that show external fields where they should not, maybe it should be addressed, meep implies that the H field is getting out and we even see it in the simulations from FEKO. This bothers me.
If we also think of the frustum as a large antenna with a RF source internally it doesn't seem so far fetched either.
Shell
1) There are no significant electromagnetic fields outside a mm thick copper cavity with no holes shown in any Meep analysis to my knowledge. What there was, according to my recollection is the failure of people to understand that a field that was several orders of magnitude smaller outside the cavity represents an insignificant magnitude. There was a failure of people to understand that it makes no sense to look at Meep images that had no numerical magnitudes associated with them. There was a failure of people to understand that fractal resuls were purely a numerical artifact.
2) Due to my academic, institutional and commercial research experience writing, developing and using codes, it doesn't bother me in the least that numerical solutions may show a field outside a cavity. If the field outside is insignificant, then there is nothing to argue about. If the numerical code shows a significant field outside then the solution of Maxwell's equations is incorrect: garbage in, garbage out, or there is an error in the code.
Been working with computers and GITO for decades Dr. Rodal. You have had a lot more detailed hands on and education in simulation software and I'm not questioning your extraordinary capabilities in this field. I also remember that we went through the numbers to realize that the fields were down in the 10^-11 or some outrageous low figure.
Before I lost my system a few moths back I had antenna modeling software installed. I had modeled the frustum as an antenna. I think I need to reinstall it again and model it again.
Shell
It is incorrect that Lenz's Law would imply a significant Gigahertz << counter-emf outside the copper frustum provided the wall thickness is less that 1 wavelength, i.e. 12 cm.>> for a closed cavity with copper walls mm thick having no gaps or holes excited internally by gigahertz waves.
Again: the electromagnetic field decays exponentially in the copper material. At gigahertz frequency it is extremely small at mm thickness of copper because the skin depth is micrometers at this frequency.
Food for thought: instead of referring to chapter of 8 of Jackson's book, review Chapter 5 of the third edition, which deals with Lenz Law, eddy currents and the skin depth. Further food for thought: instead of referring to Jackson's edition of 1962 while he was a Professor at Illinois, one would be well served to read a more updated edition, while he was a Professor at Berkeley, preferably the 3rd edition of 1998, which contains more material, for example Faraday's law and quasistatic fields is in Chapter 5 in this third edition.
The brand new paperback edition of Jackson's third edition is only $20: http://www.amazon.com/Classical-Electrodynamics-Jackson/dp/8126510943/ref=mt_paperback?_encoding=UTF8&me=
If you don't have access to the 3rd edition, and only have access to the 1st edition, see Fig 8.2 in page 239 of the first edition to have an idea of how rapidly the electromagnetic fields decay exponentially in a good conductor.
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#3396 by X_RaY on 05 Mar, 2016 17:27
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Holes in the cavity:..
http://ab-initio.mit.edu/wiki/index.php/Meep
Meep was a product of MIT and if there are discrepancies in the coding that show external fields where they should not, maybe it should be addressed, meep implies that the H field is getting out and we even see it in the simulations from FEKO. This bothers me.
If we also think of the frustum as a large antenna with a RF source internally it doesn't seem so far fetched either.
Shell
1) There are no significant electromagnetic fields outside a mm thick copper cavity with no holes shown in any Meep analysis to my knowledge. What there was, according to my recollection is the failure of people to understand that a field that was several orders of magnitude smaller outside the cavity represents an insignificant magnitude. There was a failure of people to understand that it makes no sense to look at Meep images that had no numerical magnitudes associated with them. There was a failure of people to understand that fractal resuls were purely a numerical artifact.
2) Due to my academic, institutional and commercial research experience writing, developing and using codes, it doesn't bother me in the least that numerical solutions may show a field outside a cavity. If the field outside is insignificant, then there is nothing to argue about. If the numerical code shows a significant field outside then the solution of Maxwell's equations is incorrect: garbage in, garbage out, or there is an error in the code.
Been working with computers and GITO for decades Dr. Rodal. You have had a lot more detailed hands on and education in simulation software and I'm not questioning your extraordinary capabilities in this field. I also remember that we went through the numbers to realize that the fields were down in the 10^-11 or some outrageous low figure.
Before I lost my system a few moths back I had antenna modeling software installed. I had modeled the frustum as an antenna. I think I need to reinstall it again and model it again.
Shell
Also, please remember that Aero on purpose, run some Meep analysis with gaps in the model, to study how electromagnetic fields could escape through holes or gaps in the EM Drive (for example, as a result of lack of hermetically joining or sealing the EM Drive copper construction.). There is no theoretical or experimental contradiction with existing knowledge, for electromagnetic fields to escape through holes or gaps.
https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=37642.msg1403303#msg1403303
Gaps:
https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=38203.msg1418675#msg1418675QuoteAgain: the electromagnetic field decays exponentially in the copper material. At gigahertz frequency it is extremely small at mm thickness of copper because the skin depth is micrometers at this frequency.
YES! Fully agree! -
#3397 by Rodal on 05 Mar, 2016 17:33
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Holes in the cavity:..
http://ab-initio.mit.edu/wiki/index.php/Meep
Meep was a product of MIT and if there are discrepancies in the coding that show external fields where they should not, maybe it should be addressed, meep implies that the H field is getting out and we even see it in the simulations from FEKO. This bothers me.
If we also think of the frustum as a large antenna with a RF source internally it doesn't seem so far fetched either.
Shell
1) There are no significant electromagnetic fields outside a mm thick copper cavity with no holes shown in any Meep analysis to my knowledge. What there was, according to my recollection is the failure of people to understand that a field that was several orders of magnitude smaller outside the cavity represents an insignificant magnitude. There was a failure of people to understand that it makes no sense to look at Meep images that had no numerical magnitudes associated with them. There was a failure of people to understand that fractal resuls were purely a numerical artifact.
2) Due to my academic, institutional and commercial research experience writing, developing and using codes, it doesn't bother me in the least that numerical solutions may show a field outside a cavity. If the field outside is insignificant, then there is nothing to argue about. If the numerical code shows a significant field outside then the solution of Maxwell's equations is incorrect: garbage in, garbage out, or there is an error in the code.
Been working with computers and GITO for decades Dr. Rodal. You have had a lot more detailed hands on and education in simulation software and I'm not questioning your extraordinary capabilities in this field. I also remember that we went through the numbers to realize that the fields were down in the 10^-11 or some outrageous low figure.
Before I lost my system a few moths back I had antenna modeling software installed. I had modeled the frustum as an antenna. I think I need to reinstall it again and model it again.
Shell
Also, please remember that Aero on purpose, run some Meep analysis with gaps in the model, to study how electromagnetic fields could escape through holes or gaps in the EM Drive (for example, as a result of lack of hermetically joining or sealing the EM Drive copper construction.). There is no theoretical or experimental contradiction with existing knowledge, for electromagnetic fields to escape through holes or gaps.
https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=37642.msg1403303#msg1403303
Gaps:
https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=38203.msg1418675#msg1418675
Excellent !
A correct statement that is also quantitative:
"The attenuation at hole coupling is proportional 10 log (1 / r ^06)
= 20 log (1 / r ^03) = 60log (1 / r ^0). That is, a doubling of the hole
diameter reduces the shielding effectiveness of 18.1 dB"
I love quantitative statements, they tell you so much more ! -
#3398 by rfmwguy on 05 Mar, 2016 17:34
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Dr Rodal, Lenz's Law is simply one factor that validates the fact that the typical emdrive configuration is not a closed system.
Michelle is studying other possibilities and I think she has some viable ideas. Since she and I are working with actual
hardware, I'm sure we'll do everything we can within our capabilities and budgets to test for as many variables as possible. -
#3399 by rfmwguy on 05 Mar, 2016 17:35
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Nope, I do not argue with ladies. I learned that at home.
Nice coax feed to the frustum, BTW.
. There cannot be evanescent waves outside a good conductor like copper cavity mm thick with no holes or gaps. Evanescent waves are present outside a