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#3360 by Monomorphic on 05 Mar, 2016 01:16
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NSF-1701 frequency sweep. 2Ghz - 3Ghz. Notice all the action around 2.45.
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#3361 by rfmwguy on 05 Mar, 2016 01:24
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Thanks so much for the sweep...yes, plenty of things happening at 2.45...nice work.
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#3362 by rq3 on 05 Mar, 2016 01:27
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The positive ions are those that are attracted back to the cathode to do more sputtering.
I probably have a too simplistic visual, but seems Cu+ are bled off the ffustum walls, axially aligned and driven to the target base at high velocity where sputtering occurs in a metal vapor plasma cloud just above the surface. The narrowing of the frustum being akin to a nozzle, increasing Cu+ energy via a set quadrapole torus . The hardened Cu deposition representing the kinetic strike, or resultant displacement. The shear amount of Cu+ is mind boggling. All this is new to me Dr., so forgive my lack of understanding.
It really doesn't matter. You can sputter rocks, BB's, or copper to your heart's content, but unless some mass, or some energy (same thing, actually), leaves the frustum in a preferred direction, there is no thrust. Until someone proves otherwise. So far, no one has. -
#3363 by rfmwguy on 05 Mar, 2016 01:32
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Pretty sure H fields extend outside frustum cavity. E fields shouldn't unless there is a leak or there's something not understood yet. No doors are locked yet. Did say its not a closed system.The positive ions are those that are attracted back to the cathode to do more sputtering.
I probably have a too simplistic visual, but seems Cu+ are bled off the ffustum walls, axially aligned and driven to the target base at high velocity where sputtering occurs in a metal vapor plasma cloud just above the surface. The narrowing of the frustum being akin to a nozzle, increasing Cu+ energy via a set quadrapole torus . The hardened Cu deposition representing the kinetic strike, or resultant displacement. The shear amount of Cu+ is mind boggling. All this is new to me Dr., so forgive my lack of understanding.
It really doesn't matter. You can sputter rocks, BB's, or copper to your heart's content, but unless some mass, or some energy (same thing, actually), leaves the frustum in a preferred direction, there is no thrust. Until someone proves otherwise. So far, no one has. -
#3364 by Monomorphic on 05 Mar, 2016 01:39
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Pretty sure H fields extend outside frustum cavity. E fields shouldn't unless there is a leak or there's something not understood yet. No doors are locked yet. Did say its not a closed system.
Can confirm. You can see the H fields (right) in the attached image extending outside the frustum, while the E fields (left) remain within.
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#3365 by rfmwguy on 05 Mar, 2016 01:54
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Thanks...before I forget, did the sweep of my cavity also generate an s11 chart or reflection coeff chart?Pretty sure H fields extend outside frustum cavity. E fields shouldn't unless there is a leak or there's something not understood yet. No doors are locked yet. Did say its not a closed system.
Can confirm. You can see the H fields (right) in the attached image extending outside the frustum, while the E fields (left) remain within. -
#3366 by Monomorphic on 05 Mar, 2016 02:01
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Thanks...before I forget, did the sweep of my cavity also generate an s11 chart or reflection coeff chart?
Yes. I requested the S11 this time.
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#3367 by rfmwguy on 05 Mar, 2016 02:18
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You might want to check the scaling on the refl coeff...Its reading 0.98 and should probably be 0.02. Also try return loss in dB as indexThanks...before I forget, did the sweep of my cavity also generate an s11 chart or reflection coeff chart?
Yes. I requested the S11 this time.
Useful conversion
http://cgi.www.telestrian.co.uk/cgi-bin/www.telestrian.co.uk/vswr.pl -
#3368 by ThinkerX on 05 Mar, 2016 03:39
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Ok, stupid question on sputtering ions...
Run the EM drive often enough, wouldn't this show up in the condition of the frustum's interior?
Also, while intriguing, this doesn't seem to address the greatly reduced thrust in vacuum. -
#3369 by SeeShells on 05 Mar, 2016 03:50
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Ok, stupid question on sputtering ions...
Run the EM drive often enough, wouldn't this show up in the condition of the frustum's interior?
Also, while intriguing, this doesn't seem to address the greatly reduced thrust in vacuum.
It's still a closed system and that's my issue with it. rfmwguy knows since day one I've said give me a hole and I'll give you thrust. I don't see a hole and even ripping copper ions up from the copper and accelerating them into the opposite end the Piper must be paid and conservation met.
Shell -
#3370 by ThinkerX on 05 Mar, 2016 06:34
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Ok, stupid question on sputtering ions...
Run the EM drive often enough, wouldn't this show up in the condition of the frustum's interior?
Also, while intriguing, this doesn't seem to address the greatly reduced thrust in vacuum.
It's still a closed system and that's my issue with it. rfmwguy knows since day one I've said give me a hole and I'll give you thrust. I don't see a hole and even ripping copper ions up from the copper and accelerating them into the opposite end the Piper must be paid and conservation met.
Shell
I do have half an idea how it might be done in a closed system. Emphasis on the 'might.'
Gets down to the often ignored red flags:
1 - Doctor Rodal's calculations from the MEEP runs (which seem somewhat supported by these new simulations); and
2 - the greatly reduced thrust in a vacuum, or more accurately, a near vacuum.
Internal pressure of the frustum is a key, I suspect.
And no, it's not a straight thermal effect.
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#3371 by RotoSequence on 05 Mar, 2016 08:17
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Pretty sure H fields extend outside frustum cavity. E fields shouldn't unless there is a leak or there's something not understood yet. No doors are locked yet. Did say its not a closed system.
Can confirm. You can see the H fields (right) in the attached image extending outside the frustum, while the E fields (left) remain within.
Strange... the H field looks almost helical.
I wonder if there's something thrust-boosting to be done with external magnetic fields? -
#3372 by Rodal on 05 Mar, 2016 12:09
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You are right. I'm tired of saying the same thing. What rfmwguy has proposed for an EM Drive (as presently conceived) cannot result in any acceleration of the center of mass of a spacecraft in space, since a closed cavity with mm thick copper walls does not allow any energy or mass to escape the cavity.The positive ions are those that are attracted back to the cathode to do more sputtering.
I probably have a too simplistic visual, but seems Cu+ are bled off the ffustum walls, axially aligned and driven to the target base at high velocity where sputtering occurs in a metal vapor plasma cloud just above the surface. The narrowing of the frustum being akin to a nozzle, increasing Cu+ energy via a set quadrapole torus . The hardened Cu deposition representing the kinetic strike, or resultant displacement. The shear amount of Cu+ is mind boggling. All this is new to me Dr., so forgive my lack of understanding.
It really doesn't matter. You can sputter rocks, BB's, or copper to your heart's content, but unless some mass, or some energy (same thing, actually), leaves the frustum in a preferred direction, there is no thrust. Until someone proves otherwise. So far, no one has.
Sputtering ions rocks, BB's, or ping pong balls to your heart's content inside a spacecraft is not going to accelerate its center of mass.
rfmwguy is using the image of the antimatter sail, which is misleading since that is not a closed cavity, it is an open system where the uranium fission products from the sail are ejected into space (that is why the sacrificial Uranium coating is on a sail, so that the fission products can be ejected into space).
The EM Drive as conceived has no holes or gaps though which anything can escape to the outside.
If there would be any holes or gaps, it would be by pure accident and not by design: such holes or gaps would reduce the Q of the cavity. If he believes in his proposal he would have to re-design the EM Drive to have a relatively big exit allowing the ions to escape to the outside. In which case his idea would be a relatively inefficient form of ion rocket and contravene the essence of what people have proposed for the EM Drive.
Furthermore, it would not justify the proposed constant Force/InputPower argued by EM Drive experimenters.
One knows that the thrust force to power input relationship for such an ion rocket would need to be:
((ThrustForce)^2)/InputPower = 2 * efficiency * massFlowRateOfPropellant
so that
ThrustForce/InputPower = 2 * efficiency * massFlowRateOfPropellant / ThrustForce
where the massFlowRateOfPropellant ejected into space is effectively the ion mass flow (and anything else) ejected into space.
ThrustForce/InputPower is not a constant: it decreases with increasing thrust force !, and it is limited to the amount of ion propellant flow rate ejected into space.
For such an ion rocket, nothing ejected into space (massFlowRateOfPropellant = 0) means zero thrust force. -
#3373 by rfmwguy on 05 Mar, 2016 13:12
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I think where I will spend my time with this theory is to try and understand what Dr Anders is telling us about the counterintuitive change of energy state rather than trying to make it fit it into a general assumption about physics. In other words, try to learn more about some of the missing models in the sputtering system. Maybe some others will join me.
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#3374 by Monomorphic on 05 Mar, 2016 13:14
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You might want to check the scaling on the refl coeff...Its reading 0.98 and should probably be 0.02. Also try return loss in dB as indexThanks...before I forget, did the sweep of my cavity also generate an s11 chart or reflection coeff chart?
Yes. I requested the S11 this time.
See if any of these help. There are a ton of different graphs available when I run S parameters.
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#3375 by rfmwguy on 05 Mar, 2016 13:19
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Thanks for the new runs. Almost positive rfmwguy_freq_sweep_reflection_coefficient_real.jpg is a phase transition rather than a S11 plot.
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#3376 by rfmwguy on 05 Mar, 2016 13:22
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Except for H fields. Like I told Rodal, I'll dig into the energy state change Dr Anders mentioned to try and determine its CoE counterbalance. IOW, where is the state change drawing from.Ok, stupid question on sputtering ions...
Run the EM drive often enough, wouldn't this show up in the condition of the frustum's interior?
Also, while intriguing, this doesn't seem to address the greatly reduced thrust in vacuum.
It's still a closed system and that's my issue with it. rfmwguy knows since day one I've said give me a hole and I'll give you thrust. I don't see a hole and even ripping copper ions up from the copper and accelerating them into the opposite end the Piper must be paid and conservation met.
Shell -
#3377 by Monomorphic on 05 Mar, 2016 13:26
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Thanks for the new runs. Almost positive rfmwguy_freq_sweep_reflection_coefficient_real.jpg is a phase transition rather than a S11 plot.
The options are: Impedance, Admittance, Voltage, Current, Reflection Coefficient, VSWR, Source Power, Power Loss Due to Mismatch, and Mismatch Loss. Within each of those is Magnitude, Phase, Real, and Imaginary. Plus some math for subtracting loading and using a custom reference impedance. -
#3378 by rfmwguy on 05 Mar, 2016 13:32
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Yes, sorry I'm not familiar with the software. VSWR is going to be your best bet, then Real. It should scale 1:1 to 100:1.Thanks for the new runs. Almost positive rfmwguy_freq_sweep_reflection_coefficient_real.jpg is a phase transition rather than a S11 plot.
The options are: Impedance, Admittance, Voltage, Current, Reflection Coefficient, VSWR, Source Power, Power Loss Due to Mismatch, and Mismatch Loss. Within each of those is Magnitude, Phase, Real, and Imaginary. Plus some math for subtracting loading and using a custom reference impedance.
Return Loss is typically in dB and VNA sweeps will usually scale 0 to about -70dB.
Here is our friend Mulletron's sweep:
(My critique on this sweep is there are 2 resonance poles (points) probably due to a mechanical asymmetry in his waveguide or tuning stub. Full resonance would drive the peak down to about -40dB).
Sounds like you've got the proper sweep data, just need to tweak the Units to make it more like a VNA display.
BTW, Phase is a much better way to tune bandpass filters and have seen this type of display many times. Very useful. -
#3379 by Rodal on 05 Mar, 2016 13:37
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Except for H fields. Like I told Rodal, I'll dig into the energy state change Dr Anders mentioned to try and determine its CoE counterbalance. IOW, where is the state change drawing from.Ok, stupid question on sputtering ions...
Run the EM drive often enough, wouldn't this show up in the condition of the frustum's interior?
Also, while intriguing, this doesn't seem to address the greatly reduced thrust in vacuum.
It's still a closed system and that's my issue with it. rfmwguy knows since day one I've said give me a hole and I'll give you thrust. I don't see a hole and even ripping copper ions up from the copper and accelerating them into the opposite end the Piper must be paid and conservation met.
Shell
Saying that the oscillatory magnetic field (we are talking GigaHertz magnetic field here
) extends to the outside is wrong. Look at the definition of skin depth. The oscillatory magnetic field must fall off exponentially as a function of the coordinate in the thickness direction (the coordinate perpendicular to the surface) being confined mainly to a depth comparable to the skin depth. With mm thick copper, the oscillatory magnetic field decreases to an infinitesimal amount since the skin depth at 2.45 GHz is in the order of a micrometer.
In addition to "digging Dr. Anders paper"please dig some good electromagnetism text like "Classical Electrodynamics" by John David Jackson.
For a good conductor the electromagnetic fields in the conductor are parallel to the surface and propagate normal to it with magnitudes that depend only on the tangential magnetic field that exists just outside the surface (on the inner surface of the cavity). The magnetic field decays exponentially inside the copper.
http://demonstrations.wolfram.com/SkinEffectsInStraightWires/
) extends to the outside is wrong. Look at the definition of skin depth. The oscillatory magnetic field must fall off exponentially as a function of the coordinate in the thickness direction (the coordinate perpendicular to the surface) being confined mainly to a depth comparable to the skin depth. With mm thick copper, the oscillatory magnetic field decreases to an infinitesimal amount since the skin depth at 2.45 GHz is in the order of a micrometer.