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#3340 by Monomorphic on 04 Mar, 2016 16:50
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TE311 was harder to nail down. I had to simulate a large number of different frustum dimensions to find strong TE311 resonance at 2.45Ghz.
To give you some idea of scale, at 2.45Ghz the TE211 frustum is ~13cm in height, while the TE311 frustum is ~18cm.
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#3341 by rfmwguy on 04 Mar, 2016 17:34
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When you follow the Berkeley Labs link, you'll notice they mention what happens:New EMDrive Theory - Yes, I'm prepared to go out on a limb with the "Distler Theory" (wish me luck
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(clip)
As I said on the sticky post (page 1) of these last couple of emdrive threads, I am speaking for myself with this post, not for NSF, any other users and definitely not as Moderator. I could be totally incorrect and can live with that.
- Dave
Help me understand how we can get around the conservation laws. Help me evolve this theory so Maxwell, Lorentz and the laws of causality don't haunt me. I've had this similar chat with a very sharp and dear friend and after sleepless nights thinking about it. I only can think of one way out of and around to side step these basic laws. I'm not negating these laws but bending them just a little.
A thought experiment, an astronaut in the cargo bay of the space shuttle with a box of rocks that she is throwing at the far wall. The conservation of momentum takes over. With every throw from the box of rocks equal reactionary forces are generated and conservation is met. But what if you made her counter reaction force to throwing the rock disappear or change?
Could her counter reactionary force to throwing the rock decay into evanescent waves? We know they carry extraordinary spin and momentum and don't interact the same as a standing or traveling wave but they can extract the counter reactionary forces and channel them away in different vectored forces and then decay into nothing. This would show up as excess heat patterns in the walls of the cavity.
So instead of a pure 1800 opposite reactionary force to throwing the rock the counter force is vectored to the side walls of the shuttle by the actions of the evanescent wave actions? Simple visualization, would be every time she throws a rock instead of traveling backwards she tries to travel to the sides.
I can visualize it and some of the maths work out on first look but I've got way too much on my plate right now, getting excited to finish off my re-build.
Shell
Maybe I should just focus on building to test this theory as well as several others which I'm doing.
"But with their new approach, says Anders, “under certain conditions, the ion current can greatly exceed the discharge current.” While this sounds counterintuitive, he says, “we don’t break any laws of nature, we’ve just shaken up a few assumptions.”
The trick is to send short, very high-power pulses through the magnetron at a low repetition rate. When the voltage is high enough, the ion current does not fall off as the gas is depleted but instead, sustained by self-sputtered metal ions, jumps to a new, much higher level. Self-sputtering continues as long as the power supply can deliver a high-voltage discharge current.
The result: energetic electrons are propelled far from the target and produce a dense plasma of metal ions, even in a vacuum. When the plasma is target metal rather than gas, a higher proportion of metal ions reaches the substrate, insuring that the substrate is coated with a uniform, voidless film with improved properties, such as the ability to penetrate into narrow, nanoscale cavities in intricate semiconductor circuits."
http://newscenter.lbl.gov/2009/01/28/a-supercharged-metal-ion-generator/
Guess what I will be digging into is the ion current greatly exceeding the discharge current...believe this is the key to understanding the phenomena. -
#3342 by X_RaY on 04 Mar, 2016 18:01
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TE311 was harder to nail down. I had to simulate a large number of different frustum dimensions to find strong TE311 resonance at 2.45Ghz.
To give you some idea of scale, at 2.45Ghz the TE211 frustum is ~13cm in height, while the TE311 frustum is ~18cm.
Would you so kind to post the complete dimensions please. Will try to calculate the resonant frequencies using my spreadsheets.
https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=39214.msg1473268#msg1473268 -
#3343 by JasonAW3 on 04 Mar, 2016 18:16
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Guess what I will be digging into is the ion current greatly exceeding the discharge current...believe this is the key to understanding the phenomena.
Let me see if I understand what you're saying;
Essentially, using the RF generating magnetron, you are essentially stripping a small layer of copper off of the interior, converting them to ions, and imparting kinetic energy into the ions, thrust producing an internal thrust within the device.
As the ions drop to a lower energy state, having lost that excess of energy from the impact with the interior of the device.
As the device itself, with the exception of the electrical input, is a closed system, there is no loss of mass as the copper atoms would redistribute themselves within the device.
However; There still seems to be an excess of thrust to power input that, as yet, can't be explained.
Have I essentially summed up the theory?
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#3344 by Notsosureofit on 04 Mar, 2016 18:20
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What they mean is that the ion current gets recirculated to continue the sputtering. We do sputtering here.
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#3345 by Monomorphic on 04 Mar, 2016 18:28
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Would you be so kind to post the complete dimensions please? Will try to calculate the resonant frequencies using my spreadsheets.
TE211 @ 2.45Ghz
BR: 9cm
H: 12.83cm
TR: 4.5cm
TE311 @ 2.45Ghz
BR: 11cm
H: 18.4cm
TR: 5.75cm
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#3346 by rfmwguy on 04 Mar, 2016 18:48
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Dr Notsosureofit is my go-to person on sputtering, but like Dr Anders of Berkeley Labs said, its not breaking any physical laws, just assumptions.
Guess what I will be digging into is the ion current greatly exceeding the discharge current...believe this is the key to understanding the phenomena.
Let me see if I understand what you're saying;
Essentially, using the RF generating magnetron, you are essentially stripping a small layer of copper off of the interior, converting them to ions, and imparting kinetic energy into the ions, thrust producing an internal thrust within the device.
As the ions drop to a lower energy state, having lost that excess of energy from the impact with the interior of the device.
As the device itself, with the exception of the electrical input, is a closed system, there is no loss of mass as the copper atoms would redistribute themselves within the device.
However; There still seems to be an excess of thrust to power input that, as yet, can't be explained.
Have I essentially summed up the theory?
http://pag.lbl.gov/People/andre-anders-1 -
#3347 by Monomorphic on 04 Mar, 2016 18:49
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I'm sure this has been answered many times here before, But where does everyone get their copper from, and about what thickness is easiest to work with?
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#3348 by X_RaY on 04 Mar, 2016 18:52
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Using this two sets of dimensions I am pretty sure you are looking exactly on the mode shapes of what you talking about.Would you be so kind to post the complete dimensions please? Will try to calculate the resonant frequencies using my spreadsheets.
TE211 @ 2.45Ghz
BR: 9cm
H: 12.83cm
TR: 4.5cm
TE311 @ 2.45Ghz
BR: 11cm
H: 18.4cm
TR: 5.75cm
I get ~2.43GHz for both TE211 and TE311 using the different geometries and flat end plates.
EDIT:
For the smaller frustum TE311 is @~3.095GHz
and for the bigger one TE211 is @~1.889GHz -
#3349 by SeeShells on 04 Mar, 2016 18:55
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What they mean is that the ion current gets recirculated to continue the sputtering. We do sputtering here.
I hear again and again how a magnetron cannot be used for meaningful work because of the shortcomings of the technology. I would have to disagree because magnetrons have been shown to be highly capable to do sputtering in the semiconductor industry. With the right controls and feedback they can be a very effective RF source.
Shell
Pictured, a semiconductor wafer.
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#3350 by Monomorphic on 04 Mar, 2016 19:08
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Using aluminium instead of copper has very little effect on the resonant mode. But it does look to be about 1/3 as efficient. Lower E-field and surface current.
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#3351 by SeeShells on 04 Mar, 2016 19:24
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Using aluminium instead of copper has very little effect on the resonant mode. But it does look to be about 1/3 as efficient. Lower E-field and surface current.
Use silver it should go up 40% or more.
Shell -
#3352 by X_RaY on 04 Mar, 2016 19:27
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I get ~2.43GHz for both TE211 and TE311 using the different geometries and flat end plates.
Do you have different dimensions for TE211 and TE311 at 2.45Ghz I can test? Flat end-plate only please.
Spontaneous I would love to see a much harder cone angle.
Try
BR=5.0cm
TR=15.0cm
H=7.75cm
Theta=52,224°
TE211=2.45GHz
Would be a good test for dimensions far away from a cylindrical shape.
I will hope that the approximation I currently use works under those conditions as well as for moderate cone half angles. -
#3353 by Monomorphic on 04 Mar, 2016 20:06
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Spontaneous I would love to see a much harder cone angle.
Try
BR=5.0cm
TR=15.0cm
H=7.75cm
Theta=52,224°
TE211=2.45GHz
Looks like nothing much going on at 2.45Ghz at those dims. Would have to run a frequency scan to see anything interesting.
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#3354 by Monomorphic on 04 Mar, 2016 22:19
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TE211 and TE311 surface currents from above. Definitely helps identifying modes by looking at the surface currents!
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#3355 by rfmwguy on 05 Mar, 2016 00:21
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Here is Dr Anders formal paper: http://tinyurl.com/z6nbr2mNew EMDrive Theory - Yes, I'm prepared to go out on a limb with the "Distler Theory" (wish me luck
I asked for the possibility of ion sputtering several threads ago but no one was able to present an adequate answer...)
The emdrive likely represents a "Hybrid Supercharged Metal Ion Generator", self-sustaining without the need of exotic gases (or any gases). This is also known as a High Power Impulse Magnetron Sputtering (HIPIMS) system. E & H fields are likely forming Ion Traps (Penning) and the impact/freeing of Copper Ions on the small base are releasing kinetic energy aft. In this sense, it is not a propellantless engine nor a closed system.
Free Copper Ions are captured and "recycled". Visualization can be obtained by the E - Field models presented here by our users. The torus, or Ion Traps are quadrapole in nature. There are 3-4 in most models. We just noted the Antimatter Sail target releases energy aft and the small base plate is likely doing the same, albeit at a much lower energy level.
Here is a brief quote from an article from Berkeley Lab in 2009:
"Beyond the semiconductor industry Anders sees a wide range of applications for the efficient new process, some of which may sound exotic. Because a sustained, self-sputtering plasma can operate in pure vacuum, the new method could also be used for coating materials in space, or even for ion thrusters whose fuel consists of a low-cost, noncombustible metal target, making it unnecessary to carry bottled gases or liquids into space."
http://newscenter.lbl.gov/2009/01/28/a-supercharged-metal-ion-generator/
- Dave
https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=37642.msg1411858#msg1411858
Maybe you are able to solve this part of the puzzle -
#3356 by Notsosureofit on 05 Mar, 2016 00:26
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A very interesting and useful paper for us in the sputtering game.
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#3357 by rfmwguy on 05 Mar, 2016 00:37
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A very interesting and useful paper for us in the sputtering game.
It will take me some time to get up to speed on everything that is happening with this system. Dr Anders is even calling for more modeling. I am basically trying to understand the base concept of higher energy states of Cu+. Seems Cu sheds 1 then 2 electrons when moving to a higher energy state before deposition. The ancillary collisions are hard to grasp let alone the E and H field interactions with them...not easy for an RF guy like me to wrap my mind around. -
#3358 by Notsosureofit on 05 Mar, 2016 00:41
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The positive ions are those that are attracted back to the cathode to do more sputtering.
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#3359 by rfmwguy on 05 Mar, 2016 00:56
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The positive ions are those that are attracted back to the cathode to do more sputtering.
I probably have a too simplistic visual, but seems Cu+ are bled off the ffustum walls, axially aligned and driven to the target base at high velocity where sputtering occurs in a metal vapor plasma cloud just above the surface. The narrowing of the frustum being akin to a nozzle, increasing Cu+ energy via a set quadrapole torus . The hardened Cu deposition representing the kinetic strike, or resultant displacement. The shear amount of Cu+ is mind boggling. All this is new to me Dr., so forgive my lack of understanding.
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