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#3320 by Monomorphic on 03 Mar, 2016 16:13
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I started using Eigenmode simulations because they're much faster.
FEKO agrees with these. I did get a strange result for Shell's frustum though. The TE013 mode was only present for a small part of the phase (wt).
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#3321 by SeeShells on 03 Mar, 2016 16:38
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Thanks for running this.I started using Eigenmode simulations because they're much faster.
FEKO agrees with these. I did get a strange result for Shell's frustum though. The TE013 mode was only present for a small part of the phase (wt).
This was run at 2.37GHz and it shows the E&H fields using the dual waveguides. Don't forget that this chamber is tunable to be able to change it's resonating frequency.
Sorry for the large image but it helps to see the configuration of the E and H fields.
Shell
Added: it also was run using the Quartz tuning rod through the center.
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#3322 by Monomorphic on 03 Mar, 2016 16:43
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Sorry for the large image but it helps to see the configuration of the E and H fields.
Can you please confirm your dims? These look different than what i used. -
#3323 by X_RaY on 03 Mar, 2016 16:51
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This image has the horizontal slices spaced better.
Is this the E-field? If yes i would guess it's TM013.
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#3324 by SeeShells on 03 Mar, 2016 16:54
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In MeterSorry for the large image but it helps to see the configuration of the E and H fields.
Can you please confirm your dims? These look different than what i used.
Be 295
Se 160
Cl 230
Quartz rd 12.7mm or 1/2 " -
#3325 by Monomorphic on 03 Mar, 2016 16:55
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If you need lasers for an interferometer, I want to recommend DTR's laser shop. https://sites.google.com/site/dtrlpf/ He has a great supply of single mode lasers. I built a 450nm interferometer and was able to see very strong fringe patterns. Unfortunately I burned out both the diode and the driver not but 5 minutes after. Jordan, the owner, rebuilt the laser for less than the cost of parts and shipped it back for free.
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#3326 by DnA915 on 03 Mar, 2016 19:12
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Thanks for the great summary! I'll continue to scan the forum to catch your results soon!
I remember my dad telling me to never buy the first introductory year new model car but wait for the next because they had "workedofout the bugs". This is true for me as well as rfmyguy and even NASA's EagleWorks.
This must be on the list of mandatory things for dads to tell their children because I'm pretty sure my dad told me almost that exact phrase.
Best of luck!
David -
#3327 by masonke on 03 Mar, 2016 19:34
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...
1. I write in CAPS sometimes to EMPHASIZE the WORD, NOT because I am shouting.
2. To all the SCIENTIST and NASA smart guys = I joined this website a few months ago. And I am NOT a scientist...but I, like a LOT of people, grew up watching TV shows like STAR TREK and LOST IN SPACE....and I watched in AMAZEMENT, when the APOLLO moon missions went to the (MOON)! And that is when I, like a LOT of people DREAMED of becoming an ASTRONAUT, and traveling into space to discover other ALIEN worlds and PLANETS!
3. I say ALL of this because, I just wanted to REMIND you SMART guys that work at NASA, why the EM DRIVE is SOOO POPULAR with the PUBLIC! The (EM DRIVE) is so popular with the general public because the EM DRIVE captures the public IMAGINATION of traveling in SPACE to visit other PLANETS and discover ALIEN life like on those TV shows such as, STAR TREK and LOST in SPACE that used NEW technologies that may not even make sense under our CURRENT laws of science! And most of us that don't have the MATHEMATICAL ability that YOU scientist and SMART guys possess, can only DREAM of inventing stuff like EM DRIVE, based on the our dreams as a child!
4. And this is why I wanted to WRITE and remind you SCIENTIST and SMART guys at NASA, NOT to forget to **(DREAM)**! Because what was once considered a DREAM in the past, has sometimes been made a REALITY because of SCIENCE or NEW DISCOVERIES ***. i.e = Maybe the **(EM DRIVE)**!!! Just because you are an ADULT now, it doesn't mean as SCIENTIST, that you cannot still DREAM of STAR TREK like things to INVENT! But like the EM DRIVE, it may NOT meet ALL of the CURRENT LAWS of what we *(THINK)* is right...but then again that is why YOU are scientist...you are the guys who are supposed to DISCOVER all these new and COOL things that we DREAM about!
...
Responding to your comments, I want to clarify that this site (NSF) is not associated in any official way with NASA or any other United States Government administration. The majority of the people writing comments here are not working for NASA. Several posters have never worked for NASA in their lifetime.
Many of the people posting here, even when posting strong opinions dealing with rocket propulsion, may not have either a working or an educational background in rocket propulsion.
There are some people that are (directly or indirectly) associated with NASA that post here from time to time, but even then, their comments are strictly personal.
Be skeptical of all comments and by no means assume that any particular comment from people posting here is associated with NASA.
Discussion of "DoItYourself" experiments by private individuals is precisely that: it is in no way associated with NASA or in any way shape or form promoted by NASA (particularly when dealing with microwave frequencies, which as often noted here is very dangerous, particularly to the human brain). (See: https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=39004.msg1494389#msg1494389 )
I wrote THIS, because I wanted COMPLIMENT **(ALL)** the SMART guys and GALS at NASA...and the SMART guys and gals on (THIS WEB SITE) too! SMART thinking, and thinking (OUTSIDE the BOX) should be the motto for ALL thinkers! Since the NAME of this web site is (NASASPACEFLIGHT.com), I guess I always assumed it was connected to NASA some how. -
#3328 by Monomorphic on 03 Mar, 2016 20:53
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I was able to migrate TE211 from 1.4746Ghz in the NASA frustum, to 2.45Ghz by shrinking the dimensions.
I think this is the mode I am going for. I might look at TE311 and TE411 as well. I have long thought that interaction with the side-walls is just as important as end-plate separation resonance. I like that TE211 has zero fields along the central axis, concentrating all the power on the side-walls. I've also determined that for this mode, the best big end to small end ratio is 2:1.
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#3329 by rfmwguy on 03 Mar, 2016 21:06
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Emdrive theory (rabbit hole) musing -
OK, so I'm no theorist, but have been studying countless papers, etc. Something new popped up recently:
"A Penning trap is a device for the storage of charged particles using a homogeneous axial magnetic field and an inhomogeneous quadrupole electric field. This kind of trap is particularly well suited to precision measurements of properties of ions and stable subatomic particles. Geonium atoms have been created and studied this way, to measure the electron magnetic moment. Recently these traps have been used in the physical realization of quantum computation and quantum information processing by trapping qubits. Penning traps are used in many laboratories worldwide. For example, at CERN to store antimatter like antiprotons."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penning_trap
Which leads to:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geonium_atom
So, we're dealing with a much lower power source, but a magnetron is a magnetron. Ions, positrons, electrons and several other (?) particles. Axial magnetic (H) field trap possible here? Quadrapole E field, which visually appears similar to some of the mode models we've discussed. Antiprotons? Have no clue if magnetrons could produce such a beast at the eV levels we deal with. Is the circular, axial H field firing particles into the small diameter base, releasing heavy copper ions and a reactive force results? No clue. Guess the antimatter rocket made me wonder...what if? All for consideration and discussion. No revelations made or implied.
Just a brief read, best left for those deep into theoretical work...not me.
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#3330 by SeeShells on 03 Mar, 2016 21:55
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Emdrive theory (rabbit hole) musing -
OK, so I'm no theorist, but have been studying countless papers, etc. Something new popped up recently:
"A Penning trap is a device for the storage of charged particles using a homogeneous axial magnetic field and an inhomogeneous quadrupole electric field. This kind of trap is particularly well suited to precision measurements of properties of ions and stable subatomic particles. Geonium atoms have been created and studied this way, to measure the electron magnetic moment. Recently these traps have been used in the physical realization of quantum computation and quantum information processing by trapping qubits. Penning traps are used in many laboratories worldwide. For example, at CERN to store antimatter like antiprotons."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penning_trap
Which leads to:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geonium_atom
So, we're dealing with a much lower power source, but a magnetron is a magnetron. Ions, positrons, electrons and several other (?) particles. Axial magnetic (H) field trap possible here? Quadrapole E field, which visually appears similar to some of the mode models we've discussed. Antiprotons? Have no clue if magnetrons could produce such a beast at the eV levels we deal with. Is the circular, axial H field firing particles into the small diameter base, releasing heavy copper ions and a reactive force results? No clue. Guess the antimatter rocket made me wonder...what if? All for consideration and discussion. No revelations made or implied.
Just a brief read, best left for those deep into theoretical work...not me.
An easy way to look at the closed EMD would be like a child blowing up a balloon, You input energy into the balloon but, nothing truly happens until you release the balloon. Simple. It goes phhhhsssttttt.
So we should ask.
How can we get the increased potential energy inside of the balloon to interact with the outside world? Unless it's a warp balloon where most of the air mass gets pushed into one area of the balloon. If that was the case then the balloon would want to deform it's shape because of the outside air pressure to compensate. The EMD can't warp like that and instead of outside air pressure we have spacetime. So instead of creating a pressure that in a balloons case would deform it, the cavity keeps its shape but creates a spacetime pressure differential around itself and "squirts" ahead like pinching a watermelon seed.
Are the photons trapped in a frustum waveguide creating a "mode" to behave like massive particles?
http://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/0708/0708.3519.pdf
Shell
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#3331 by rq3 on 03 Mar, 2016 22:46
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Emdrive theory (rabbit hole) musing -
OK, so I'm no theorist, but have been studying countless papers, etc. Something new popped up recently:
"A Penning trap is a device for the storage of charged particles using a homogeneous axial magnetic field and an inhomogeneous quadrupole electric field. This kind of trap is particularly well suited to precision measurements of properties of ions and stable subatomic particles. Geonium atoms have been created and studied this way, to measure the electron magnetic moment. Recently these traps have been used in the physical realization of quantum computation and quantum information processing by trapping qubits. Penning traps are used in many laboratories worldwide. For example, at CERN to store antimatter like antiprotons."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penning_trap
Which leads to:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geonium_atom
So, we're dealing with a much lower power source, but a magnetron is a magnetron. Ions, positrons, electrons and several other (?) particles. Axial magnetic (H) field trap possible here? Quadrapole E field, which visually appears similar to some of the mode models we've discussed. Antiprotons? Have no clue if magnetrons could produce such a beast at the eV levels we deal with. Is the circular, axial H field firing particles into the small diameter base, releasing heavy copper ions and a reactive force results? No clue. Guess the antimatter rocket made me wonder...what if? All for consideration and discussion. No revelations made or implied.
Just a brief read, best left for those deep into theoretical work...not me.
Why not? Lightning storms commonly create anti-matter, and the field strengths are comparable to a magnetron driving a resonant cavity. Hell, you can make X-rays with Scotch tape. The world is stranger than we mortals can imagine!
In the immortal words of Schultz (of "Hogan's Heros fame): "I knooow nothink. Grasshopper, I SEEEE nooothink. Ist that STRUUUUDEL!?" -
#3332 by rfmwguy on 04 Mar, 2016 03:15
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Penning or Paul traps are ion traps. Microwaves used...frustum shaped electric fields...getting interesting...
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#3333 by rfmwguy on 04 Mar, 2016 03:48
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News Tangent - r&d, google, NM spaceport, 2.5 ghz, 90+ kw transmitter, fcc application...coincidence? Probably. Popular Mechanics article:
http://tinyurl.com/zrwogss -
#3334 by Emmett Brown on 04 Mar, 2016 03:50
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Hi everyone, I'm still around - hoping to get more time on this project soon.
Zellerium and Monomorphic - Thanks for the sim pics.
One thing I noticed when running Eigenfrequency analysis in Comsol was that there are a lot of different modes within a small range of frequencies. For instance, here are three solutions of many on my frustrum.
(I picked these to show TE013 and two that matched your results. You had my dimensions correct.)
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#3335 by Bob Woods on 04 Mar, 2016 04:42
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Shell, it looks like the temporal coupler on your rig is a little leaky. Remember everybody, safety is the watchword on these DIY efforts. Paradoxes are to avoided at ALL costs!
Yup! Couldn't agree more.
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#3336 by rfmwguy on 04 Mar, 2016 14:15
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New EMDrive Theory - Yes, I'm prepared to go out on a limb with the "Distler Theory" (wish me luck
)
Months of study and visualizations have lead me down the path of trying to explain the emdrive without exotic matter or particles. Recent information has lead me to a "rabbit hole" theory that has been a long time in the making. Much math is needed and since I think more visual than numeric, it will take me some time to develop the needed math behind it. This is a hint to others that I welcome inputs.
Here it is:
The emdrive likely represents a "Hybrid Supercharged Metal Ion Generator", self-sustaining without the need of exotic gases (or any gases). This is also known as a High Power Impulse Magnetron Sputtering (HIPIMS) system. E & H fields are likely forming Ion Traps (Penning) and the impact/freeing of Copper Ions on the small base are releasing kinetic energy aft. In this sense, it is not a propellantless engine nor a closed system.
Free Copper Ions are captured and "recycled". Visualization can be obtained by the E - Field models presented here by our users. The torus, or Ion Traps are quadrapole in nature. There are 3-4 in most models. We just noted the Antimatter Sail target releases energy aft and the small base plate is likely doing the same, albeit at a much lower energy level.
Here is a brief quote from an article from Berkeley Lab in 2009:
"Beyond the semiconductor industry Anders sees a wide range of applications for the efficient new process, some of which may sound exotic. Because a sustained, self-sputtering plasma can operate in pure vacuum, the new method could also be used for coating materials in space, or even for ion thrusters whose fuel consists of a low-cost, noncombustible metal target, making it unnecessary to carry bottled gases or liquids into space."
http://newscenter.lbl.gov/2009/01/28/a-supercharged-metal-ion-generator/
Granted, my theory is still in its infancy. It is the rabbit hole I've chosen to pursue during and after my next build and testing. Unlike conventional theory releases via peer reviewed papers, I am presenting this to the NSF community in its infancy to consider, comment or possible jump ahead of me in its refinement...also reject outright
As I said on the sticky post (page 1) of these last couple of emdrive threads, I am speaking for myself with this post, not for NSF, any other users and definitely not as Moderator. I could be totally incorrect and can live with that.
- Dave
Antimatter Sail from http://www.hbartech.com/
NSF-1701 E-Field Model
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#3337 by Notsosureofit on 04 Mar, 2016 14:32
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Correct, of course, but confined to the interior of the EMDrive cavity.
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#3338 by SeeShells on 04 Mar, 2016 15:44
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New EMDrive Theory - Yes, I'm prepared to go out on a limb with the "Distler Theory" (wish me luck
)
(clip)
As I said on the sticky post (page 1) of these last couple of emdrive threads, I am speaking for myself with this post, not for NSF, any other users and definitely not as Moderator. I could be totally incorrect and can live with that.
- Dave
Help me understand how we can get around the conservation laws. Help me evolve this theory so Maxwell, Lorentz and the laws of causality don't haunt me. I've had this similar chat with a very sharp and dear friend and after sleepless nights thinking about it. I only can think of one way out of and around to side step these basic laws. I'm not negating these laws but bending them just a little.
A thought experiment, an astronaut in the cargo bay of the space shuttle with a box of rocks that she is throwing at the far wall. The conservation of momentum takes over. With every throw from the box of rocks equal reactionary forces are generated and conservation is met. But what if you made her counter reaction force to throwing the rock disappear or change?
Could her counter reactionary force to throwing the rock decay into evanescent waves? We know they carry extraordinary spin and momentum and don't interact the same as a standing or traveling wave but they can extract the counter reactionary forces and channel them away in different vectored forces and then decay into nothing. This would show up as excess heat patterns in the walls of the cavity.
So instead of a pure 1800 opposite reactionary force to throwing the rock the counter force is vectored to the side walls of the shuttle by the actions of the evanescent wave actions? Simple visualization, would be every time she throws a rock instead of traveling backwards she tries to travel to the sides.
I can visualize it and some of the maths work out on first look but I've got way too much on my plate right now, getting excited to finish off my re-build.
Shell
Maybe I should just focus on building to test this theory as well as several others which I'm doing. -
#3339 by X_RaY on 04 Mar, 2016 16:01
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New EMDrive Theory - Yes, I'm prepared to go out on a limb with the "Distler Theory" (wish me luck
I asked for the possibility of ion sputtering several threads ago but no one was able to present an adequate answer...)
Months of study and visualizations have lead me down the path of trying to explain the emdrive without exotic matter or particles. Recent information has lead me to a "rabbit hole" theory that has been a long time in the making. Much math is needed and since I think more visual than numeric, it will take me some time to develop the needed math behind it. This is a hint to others that I welcome inputs.
Here it is:
The emdrive likely represents a "Hybrid Supercharged Metal Ion Generator", self-sustaining without the need of exotic gases (or any gases). This is also known as a High Power Impulse Magnetron Sputtering (HIPIMS) system. E & H fields are likely forming Ion Traps (Penning) and the impact/freeing of Copper Ions on the small base are releasing kinetic energy aft. In this sense, it is not a propellantless engine nor a closed system.
Free Copper Ions are captured and "recycled". Visualization can be obtained by the E - Field models presented here by our users. The torus, or Ion Traps are quadrapole in nature. There are 3-4 in most models. We just noted the Antimatter Sail target releases energy aft and the small base plate is likely doing the same, albeit at a much lower energy level.
Here is a brief quote from an article from Berkeley Lab in 2009:
"Beyond the semiconductor industry Anders sees a wide range of applications for the efficient new process, some of which may sound exotic. Because a sustained, self-sputtering plasma can operate in pure vacuum, the new method could also be used for coating materials in space, or even for ion thrusters whose fuel consists of a low-cost, noncombustible metal target, making it unnecessary to carry bottled gases or liquids into space."
http://newscenter.lbl.gov/2009/01/28/a-supercharged-metal-ion-generator/
Granted, my theory is still in its infancy. It is the rabbit hole I've chosen to pursue during and after my next build and testing. Unlike conventional theory releases via peer reviewed papers, I am presenting this to the NSF community in its infancy to consider, comment or possible jump ahead of me in its refinement...also reject outright
As I said on the sticky post (page 1) of these last couple of emdrive threads, I am speaking for myself with this post, not for NSF, any other users and definitely not as Moderator. I could be totally incorrect and can live with that.
- Dave
Antimatter Sail from http://www.hbartech.com/
NSF-1701 E-Field Model
https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=37642.msg1411858#msg1411858
Maybe you are able to solve this part of the puzzle
)