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#3240
by
Amestad
on 28 Feb, 2016 22:48
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Hi everyone.
Long time reader (threads 2 through 6*) but first time poster.
I just wanted to ask Shell if she'd be prepared to give us all a status update on her progress since the OMG moment / burn in.. test.
Have you successfully re-engineered and re-built? Are you now in test mode?
I respect you'll want to keep all results (pos, neg, inconclusive etc) quiet until your ready for the backlash and social media firestorm; but are you actually now testing?
* typo read 6 too....
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#3241
by
rfmwguy
on 28 Feb, 2016 23:06
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Couple of comments...social media firestorm...I'll do the same video releases this year as last. Not concerned about the few critics who gripe at lab tests at nasa and dresden. They are predictable.
Secondly, whatever might be causing the effect is likely nothing a home or general lab could measure easily. Meaning I think the photon and magnetic fields might be producing something that cannot easily be measured or modeled. Look at processing times for feko and meep for standard em modeling. Throw in variables like photon recycling, annihilation or creation, mix in copper ions, lenz effect and free electrons and you can see the dilemma. Its why I'm sticking with experimental physics rather than theoretical. Try to find old papers on an unloaded, assymetric, terminated resonant cavity excited by microwave radiation and the problem becomes clear. No one considered the need to investigate it until recently. There was really no use for such a device...closest thing is a microwave oven and who'd have thought to measure kinetic force? Hot soup was the objective.
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#3242
by
rfmwguy
on 28 Feb, 2016 23:10
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Guys and gals, we are over 400,000 views and 160 pages in our old friend T6. We will need to start T7 by the end of this week. Hope warptechs paper is released, but will need to start it regardless. If anyone has any big news before then, let me know via PM. We might use that as our T7 kickoff.
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#3243
by
SeeShells
on 28 Feb, 2016 23:34
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Hi everyone.
Long time reader (threads 2 through 5) but first time poster.
I just wanted to ask Shell if she'd be prepared to give us all a status update on her progress since the OMG moment / burn in.. test.
Have you successfully re-engineered and re-built? Are you now in test mode?
I respect you'll want to keep all results (pos, neg, inconclusive etc) quiet until your ready for the backlash and social media firestorm; but are you actually now testing?
I did rebuild and re-test and got some results that I logged. Still not ready to face the firestorm. It's too early to release any data and I'll not have the firestorm I had when I posted my very first power on test. I was wrong to do it.
I just dragged in yesterday my 3x5 foot 1/2" thick 1" 1-1/4 holed aluminum plate from where it's been all winter (just too messy buried under 8 years of stuff to even get to it. The darn thing weighs 100 pounds! Got it secured on my table yesterday.
I tore down my build and currently rebuilding and securing and drilling and tapping and screwing and measuring everything back onto the large plate. I was getting a little frustrated before as it was tough to get the fixtures secure on the table. I'm also redoing the Faraday cages and re-mounting the Magnetron in the center of the beam so I can route the coax a little differently in a straight shot down the carbon fiber tubes
Once everything is back together and I'm happy with the stability I'll reassemble and re-start testing from the beginning. I have 2 frustums currently to run and am working on a third very unique one.
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#3244
by
Tellmeagain
on 29 Feb, 2016 00:58
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Better remodel it into a torsion balance. The current setting will not reach any conclusion because people are going to argue endlessly the thermal problem.
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#3245
by
Amestad
on 29 Feb, 2016 01:34
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Hi everyone.
Long time reader (threads 2 through 6*) but first time poster.
I just wanted to ask Shell if she'd be prepared to give us all a status update on her progress since the OMG moment / burn in.. test.
Have you successfully re-engineered and re-built? Are you now in test mode?
I respect you'll want to keep all results (pos, neg, inconclusive etc) quiet until your ready for the backlash and social media firestorm; but are you actually now testing?
I did rebuild and re-test and got some results that I logged. Still not ready to face the firestorm. It's too early to release any data and I'll not have the firestorm I had when I posted my very first power on test. I was wrong to do it.
I just dragged in yesterday my 3x5 foot 1/2" thick 1" 1-1/4 holed aluminum plate from where it's been all winter (just too messy buried under 8 years of stuff to even get to it. The darn thing weighs 100 pounds! Got it secured on my table yesterday.
I tore down my build and currently rebuilding and securing and drilling and tapping and screwing and measuring everything back onto the large plate. I was getting a little frustrated before as it was tough to get the fixtures secure on the table. I'm also redoing the Faraday cages and re-mounting the Magnetron in the center of the beam so I can route the coax a little differently in a straight shot down the carbon fiber tubes
Once everything is back together and I'm happy with the stability I'll reassemble and re-start testing from the beginning. I have 2 frustums currently to run and am working on a third very unique one.
Thanks for the update Shell.
I suspected that was the case from the subtle change in the nature of your posts over the last few weeks, but it's nice to hear it.
I look forward to reading about your results in due course.
With no disrespect to the other builders; IMHO, I consider your build quality and test set up has the potential to stand as the litmus test for the EMDrive..
Now I just have to find the way back to my silent corner...
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#3246
by
SeeShells
on 29 Feb, 2016 01:43
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Hi everyone.
Long time reader (threads 2 through 6*) but first time poster.
I just wanted to ask Shell if she'd be prepared to give us all a status update on her progress since the OMG moment / burn in.. test.
Have you successfully re-engineered and re-built? Are you now in test mode?
I respect you'll want to keep all results (pos, neg, inconclusive etc) quiet until your ready for the backlash and social media firestorm; but are you actually now testing?
I did rebuild and re-test and got some results that I logged. Still not ready to face the firestorm. It's too early to release any data and I'll not have the firestorm I had when I posted my very first power on test. I was wrong to do it.
I just dragged in yesterday my 3x5 foot 1/2" thick 1" 1-1/4 holed aluminum plate from where it's been all winter (just too messy buried under 8 years of stuff to even get to it. The darn thing weighs 100 pounds! Got it secured on my table yesterday.
I tore down my build and currently rebuilding and securing and drilling and tapping and screwing and measuring everything back onto the large plate. I was getting a little frustrated before as it was tough to get the fixtures secure on the table. I'm also redoing the Faraday cages and re-mounting the Magnetron in the center of the beam so I can route the coax a little differently in a straight shot down the carbon fiber tubes
Once everything is back together and I'm happy with the stability I'll reassemble and re-start testing from the beginning. I have 2 frustums currently to run and am working on a third very unique one.
Thanks for the update Shell.
I suspected that was the case from the subtle change in the nature of your posts over the last few weeks, but it's nice to hear it.
I look forward to reading about your results in due course.
With no disrespect to the other builders; IMHO, I consider your build quality and test set up has the potential to stand as the litmus test for the EMDrive..
Now I just have to find the way back to my silent corner...
I truly hope something good comes from this effort and some answers are provided that are clear and concise and out of the error bars.
Thanks for the compliment... but you don't need to keep quiet we all love the company.
Shell
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#3247
by
SeeShells
on 29 Feb, 2016 01:59
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Better remodel it into a torsion balance. The current setting will not reach any conclusion because people are going to argue endlessly the thermal problem.
Thermally it's right in the center of the beam and the magnetron is now water cooled removing a lot of any thermals plumes from the magnetron's 140-200C heated jets, if it proves to be a issue than I have the hardware to move it away entirely from the teeter-todder flucrum beam. No real issue.
I have this set up with both a digital scale to measure pressures and also when I move the scales off the table it can test acceleration. We need to be able to correlate both readings.
I have begun to realize people are going to debate my results endlessly and that's OK, as science just happens that way. If you pay attention to the heavy critics (another site) you pickup nuggets of very good information for building and design your test rig accordingly.
Even if this was setup in a world class facility and the dang frustum shot out of the roof in white hot acceleration, they would debate it.
Thanks for your input.
Shell
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#3248
by
zellerium
on 29 Feb, 2016 02:02
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Latest test run from the cylindrical resonator:
The pendulum moves in the direction of the dielectric (by less than a mm) and doesn't swing back quickly when the magnetron is turned off.
Seems to me that we are seeing the center of mass shift slightly due to thermal effects.
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#3249
by
rfmwguy
on 29 Feb, 2016 14:36
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Latest test run from the cylindrical resonator:
The pendulum moves in the direction of the dielectric (by less than a mm) and doesn't swing back quickly when the magnetron is turned off.
Seems to me that we are seeing the center of mass shift slightly due to thermal effects.
Thanks for sharing Kurt. would it be easy to remove the dielectric, retest and check your theory on mass displacement? You might run into a mismatch, but the 1 mm displacement could be used as a benchmark on a quick test. p.s. nice gear!
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#3250
by
SeeShells
on 29 Feb, 2016 15:37
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Latest test run from the cylindrical resonator:
The pendulum moves in the direction of the dielectric (by less than a mm) and doesn't swing back quickly when the magnetron is turned off.
Seems to me that we are seeing the center of mass shift slightly due to thermal effects.
Interesting. Sometimes it helps to review some of the old chats we have had on here.
https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=37642.msg1391359#msg1391359http://arxiv.org/pdf/0708.3519.pdfPhotons inside a waveguide as massive particles
Zhi-Yong Wang1, Cai-Dong Xiong
"In the paper, we show that there exists a close analogy between the behavior of de
Broglie matter waves and that of electromagnetic waves inside a hollow waveguide, such that the guided photons can be treated as free massive particles subject to a relativistic quantum-mechanical equation. Inspired by the effective rest mass of guided photons and the zitterbewegung phenomenon of the Dirac electron, at variance with the well-known Higgs mechanism we present some different heuristic ideas on the origin of mass."
+++++++++++
And a little further down WarpTech writes
https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=37642.msg1391359#msg1391359Whereas Dr. Rodal remarks that to verify all you need to do is verify the DC component.
+++++++++++
A DC component in the DUT could be found as DC it makes a detectable magnetic field and you could look for a field even using a compass of another detector which should be sensitive enough.
Shell
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#3251
by
zellerium
on 29 Feb, 2016 16:01
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Latest test run from the cylindrical resonator:
The pendulum moves in the direction of the dielectric (by less than a mm) and doesn't swing back quickly when the magnetron is turned off.
Seems to me that we are seeing the center of mass shift slightly due to thermal effects.
Thanks for sharing Kurt. would it be easy to remove the dielectric, retest and check your theory on mass displacement? You might run into a mismatch, but the 1 mm displacement could be used as a benchmark on a quick test. p.s. nice gear!
Great idea, that would be very easy to do.
And thanks for the links Shell. I'll have to come up with a way to film a compass inside the protective setup, last time I put my GoPro in there it turned off because of RF leakage (which can also be seen on the oscilloscope). I'll put a load of absorbing sheets in the end of the cylinder next time and hopefully that will do the trick.
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#3252
by
SeeShells
on 29 Feb, 2016 16:20
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Latest test run from the cylindrical resonator:
The pendulum moves in the direction of the dielectric (by less than a mm) and doesn't swing back quickly when the magnetron is turned off.
Seems to me that we are seeing the center of mass shift slightly due to thermal effects.
Thanks for sharing Kurt. would it be easy to remove the dielectric, retest and check your theory on mass displacement? You might run into a mismatch, but the 1 mm displacement could be used as a benchmark on a quick test. p.s. nice gear!
Great idea, that would be very easy to do.
And thanks for the links Shell. I'll have to come up with a way to film a compass inside the protective setup, last time I put my GoPro in there it turned off because of RF leakage (which can also be seen on the oscilloscope). I'll put a load of absorbing sheets in the end of the cylinder next time and hopefully that will do the trick.
Just pick up some aluminum screen, it will create a Faraday cage for the RF but a magnetic field should pass well enough.
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#3253
by
rfmwguy
on 29 Feb, 2016 18:41
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Testing update (2/28/16) - Paul Kocyla/Aachen/Hackaday micro-frustum (20+GHz):
"Tests of EMDrive V3 are looking good. Wrote a piece of code to analyse the data and make an automatic guess of the direction in which the cavity is pointing
(calculating means of the platform displacement angle during ON and OFF phases and comparing them)
Five of five datasets have been guessed correctly by the software.
Iīll continue running the tests.
Itīs still to be checked for other side effects though - basic stuff like tests without power, tests with detuned frequency or with cavity pointing downwards - but first I want to collect more data of directional tests.
I can only make one test per night, during daytime the noise is too high."
https://hackaday.io/project/5596-em-drive"Started testing the EMDrive V3 on the swimming platform.
Force is clearly beeing detected - I will perform long duration tests to check for directivity and parasitic effects.
Preliminary information will not be posted - updates will come when complete datasets are available. Datasets will be available for download."
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#3254
by
masonke
on 29 Feb, 2016 19:59
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1. I write in CAPS sometimes to EMPHASIZE the WORD, NOT because I am shouting.
2. To all the SCIENTIST and NASA smart guys = I joined this website a few months ago. And I am NOT a scientist...but I, like a LOT of people, grew up watching TV shows like STAR TREK and LOST IN SPACE....and I watched in AMAZEMENT, when the APOLLO moon missions went to the (MOON)! And that is when I, like a LOT of people DREAMED of becoming an ASTRONAUT, and traveling into space to discover other ALIEN worlds and PLANETS!
3. I say ALL of this because, I just wanted to REMIND you SMART guys that work at NASA, why the EM DRIVE is SOOO POPULAR with the PUBLIC! The (EM DRIVE) is so popular with the general public because the EM DRIVE captures the public IMAGINATION of traveling in SPACE to visit other PLANETS and discover ALIEN life like on those TV shows such as, STAR TREK and LOST in SPACE that used NEW technologies that may not even make sense under our CURRENT laws of science! And most of us that don't have the MATHEMATICAL ability that YOU scientist and SMART guys possess, can only DREAM of inventing stuff like EM DRIVE, based on the our dreams as a child!
4. And this is why I wanted to WRITE and remind you SCIENTIST and SMART guys at NASA, NOT to forget to **(DREAM)**! Because what was once considered a DREAM in the past, has sometimes been made a REALITY because of SCIENCE or NEW DISCOVERIES ***. i.e = Maybe the **(EM DRIVE)**!!! Just because you are an ADULT now, it doesn't mean as SCIENTIST, that you cannot still DREAM of STAR TREK like things to INVENT! But like the EM DRIVE, it may NOT meet ALL of the CURRENT LAWS of what we *(THINK)* is right...but then again that is why YOU are scientist...you are the guys who are supposed to DISCOVER all these new and COOL things that we DREAM about!
5. Keep up the GREAT work guys! And like I have said before, we ONLY know what we know, as of RIGHT NOW...in the FUTURE we may discover something NEW = (EM DRIVE), that may ERASE everything we (THOUGHT) was right! That is why as SCIENTIST, you have to keep an OPEN MIND to **(EVERYTHING)**, and INVESTIGATE everything...no matter how CRAZY it sounds!
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#3255
by
MazonDel
on 29 Feb, 2016 21:02
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Even if this was setup in a world class facility and the dang frustum shot out of the roof in white hot acceleration, they would debate it.
True, though I suspect the debate would have a bit of a different flavor to it.
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#3256
by
RERT
on 29 Feb, 2016 21:15
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I guess this counts as the end of February, when the BBC Horizons program on the EMDrive was previously said to be broadcast.
If I've managed to miss it, it has left no trace on the BBC iPlayer, and passed completely without comment here. I'd deduce that it hasn't gone out as expected.
Does anyone (?TT) have any light to shed on what might be happening?
R.
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#3257
by
rfmwguy
on 29 Feb, 2016 21:43
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I guess this counts as the end of February, when the BBC Horizons program on the EMDrive was previously said to be broadcast.
If I've managed to miss it, it has left no trace on the BBC iPlayer, and passed completely without comment here. I'd deduce that it hasn't gone out as expected.
Does anyone (?TT) have any light to shed on what might be happening?
R.
Yes, Phil told me a couple of weeks ago that BBC2 pulled their future schedule off their website in a bit of an unusual move. We don't think it had anything to do with Shawyer, just some programming issues.
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#3258
by
Tellmeagain
on 29 Feb, 2016 23:14
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"Started testing the EMDrive V3 on the swimming platform.
This is the best approach so far. If his platform can swim from one side to the other then it is definite. He needs to take care of thermal isolation between the platform and the water though.
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#3259
by
Rodal
on 29 Feb, 2016 23:53
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...
2. To all the SCIENTIST and NASA smart guys = I joined this website a few months ago. And I am NOT a scientist...but I, like a LOT of people, grew up watching TV shows like STAR TREK and LOST IN SPACE....and I watched in AMAZEMENT, when the APOLLO moon missions went to the (MOON)! And that is when I, like a LOT of people DREAMED of becoming an ASTRONAUT, and traveling into space to discover other ALIEN worlds and PLANETS!
3. I say ALL of this because, I just wanted to REMIND you SMART guys that work at NASA, why the EM DRIVE is SOOO POPULAR with the PUBLIC! The (EM DRIVE) is so popular with the general public because the EM DRIVE captures the public IMAGINATION of traveling in SPACE to visit other PLANETS and discover ALIEN life like on those TV shows such as, STAR TREK and LOST in SPACE that used NEW technologies that may not even make sense under our CURRENT laws of science! And most of us that don't have the MATHEMATICAL ability that YOU scientist and SMART guys possess, can only DREAM of inventing stuff like EM DRIVE, based on the our dreams as a child!
4. And this is why I wanted to WRITE and remind you SCIENTIST and SMART guys at NASA, NOT to forget to **(DREAM)**! Because what was once considered a DREAM in the past, has sometimes been made a REALITY because of SCIENCE or NEW DISCOVERIES ***. i.e = Maybe the **(EM DRIVE)**!!! Just because you are an ADULT now, it doesn't mean as SCIENTIST, that you cannot still DREAM of STAR TREK like things to INVENT! But like the EM DRIVE, it may NOT meet ALL of the CURRENT LAWS of what we *(THINK)* is right...but then again that is why YOU are scientist...you are the guys who are supposed to DISCOVER all these new and COOL things that we DREAM about!
...
Responding to your comments, I want to clarify that this site (NSF) is not associated in any official way with NASA or any other United States Government administration. The majority of the people writing comments here are not working for NASA. Several posters have never worked for NASA in their lifetime.
Many of the people posting here, even when posting strong opinions dealing with rocket propulsion, may not have either a working or an educational background in rocket propulsion.
There are some people that are (directly or indirectly) associated with NASA that post here from time to time, but even then, their comments are strictly personal.
Be skeptical of all comments and by no means assume that any particular comment from people posting here is associated with NASA.
Discussion of "DoItYourself" experiments by private individuals is precisely that: it is in no way associated with NASA or in any way shape or form promoted by NASA (particularly when dealing with microwave frequencies, which as often noted here is very dangerous, particularly to the human brain). (See:
https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=39004.msg1494389#msg1494389 )
