Talk about being confused
Still not clear what is being shown in the Monomorphic latest image posts.
Need to see an image of the
magnetic and electric fields in the longitudinal direction The electric field should be zero in the longitudinal direction along the axis of axisymmetry of the cone, for a TE (
transverse electric) mode.
The magnetic field in the longitudinal direction is not zero for a TE mode and it is continuous ( in the spherical radial direction) along the surface.
Conversely, this picture by X-Ray makes a lot of sense to me for a TE mode:
as:
1) The electric field is zero along the central, longitudinal axis of axisymmetry of the cone
2) the electric field goes to zero at the surface
QUESTION: are you sure that what Monomorphic is showing is a TE mode ? The electric field does NOT look like this TE013:
Talk about being confused
Still not clear what is being shown in the Monomorphic latest image posts.
Need to see an image of the magnetic and electric fields in the longitudinal direction
The electric field should be zero in the longitudinal direction along the axis of axisymmetry of the cone, for a TE (transverse electric) mode.
The magnetic field in the longitudinal direction is not zero for a TE mode and it is continuous ( in the spherical radial direction) along the surface.
Conversely, this picture by X-Ray makes a lot of sense to me for a TE mode:
...............
as:
1) The electric field is zero along the central, longitudinal axis of axisymmetry of the cone
2) the electric field goes to zero at the surface
QUESTION: are you sure that what Monomorphic is showing is a TE mode ?
The electric field does NOT look like this TE013:
.......................
I like to remember on EMPro results in the past for this mode share.
Rodal is right on the facts about the fields!
Also I currently miss our great MEEP expert Aero for this discussion.
You're right.. it's not TE013, looks like TE003. Right? lol
I also found TE012 @ 2.565Ghz. I don't think this frustum is long enough to excite TE013.
You're right.. it's not TE013, looks like TE003. Right?
I also found TE012 @ 2.565Ghz. I don't think this frustum is long enough to excite TE013.
1) Aaaah, NO! TE003 isnt a possible mode shape at all!
2) The TE012 looks right to me.
3) Using the current dimensions the frustum will be able to excite TE013 at higher frequencies.
By the way, I noticed I clicked the wrong power request and do have a graph. I think this is showing the TE012 resonance mode from above.
By the way, I noticed I clicked the wrong power request and do have a graph. I think this is showing the TE012 resonance mode from above.
Please consider that if this is a TIME DOMAIN solution, the same problem that aero run into with Meep, you are also running into:
* what is your maximum real time at the end of the run? If it is a fraction of a microsecond, this is just a
transient* the fields may be
malformed and that's why it doesn't look like a resonant mode
(neither TE nor TM) because it is NOT a resonant mode, it is NOT a standing wave !!!!
This is interesting. Here is the graph for the flat end-plate frustum of the same dimensions. Huge difference between the two.
it is NOT a resonant mode, it is NOT a standing wave !!!!
I think you're right Dr. Rodal. I was able to pull the graphs. What I thought was TE013 is actually that blip between 2.7 and 2.8Ghz (whatever that is). The strongest mode for this frustum is TE012 at 2.565Ghz. I don't think this frustum is long enough to excite TE013.
it is NOT a resonant mode, it is NOT a standing wave !!!!
I think you're right Dr. Rodal. I was able to pull the graphs. What I thought was TE013 is actually that blip between 2.7 and 2.8Ghz (whatever that is). The strongest mode for this frustum is TE012 at 2.565Ghz. I don't think this frustum is long enough to excite TE013.
Unfortunately, whenever we use ANY numerical method (COMSOL or FEKO or MEEP), there is nothing telling us what mode shapes are involved, one has to perform exhaustive detective work to identify them.
The frequencies are output. Identifying the mode shape is a lot of work
I like the exact solution method because the mode shape is given by the method, so one doesn't have to do any detective work
Unfortunately there is no exact solution for the transient
Also suggests TE011 excitation would have 3x the Force generation as the frustum transit time should be 1/3 that of TE013 excitation or 3 x more end plate bounces per sec than TE013.
I think this is the mode TT is referring to (TE011). It can also be seen in the graph. Note this is the flat end-plate frustum.
Can you please show the magnetic field in the axial direction ?
Unfortunately, I didn't request a near field in that direction for this run. It would be nice to have now that you point it out. I will probably run it again with several near field requests. Best to run over night while i'm sleeping as it really bogs my computer down.
Just to note: I came to the conclusion that because these runs take so much cpu, it is better to record as many features of the run as you might ever need. Writing the files only takes a little more time and you can always delete some or all in a day or two, if you are short on disk space. Doesn't mean I always follow my own advice.
Friendly reminder, a secure server is a available at n/c to nsf emdrive modelers. PM me if interested.
it is NOT a resonant mode, it is NOT a standing wave !!!!
I think you're right Dr. Rodal. I was able to pull the graphs. What I thought was TE013 is actually that blip between 2.7 and 2.8Ghz (whatever that is). The strongest mode for this frustum is TE012 at 2.565Ghz. I don't think this frustum is long enough to excite TE013.
Unfortunately, whenever we use ANY numerical method (COMSOL or FEKO or MEEP), there is nothing telling us what mode shapes are involved, one has to perform exhaustive detective work to identify them.
The frequencies are output. Identifying the mode shape is a lot of work
I like the exact solution method because the mode shape is given by the method, so one doesn't have to do any detective work
Unfortunately there is no exact solution for the transient
We need to remember we are in a 3D model that will not only resonate Plate to Plate but on the sidewalls as well.
Shell
By the way, I noticed I clicked the wrong power request and do have a graph. I think this is showing the TE012 resonance mode from above.
Please consider that if this is a TIME DOMAIN solution, the same problem that aero run into with Meep, you are also running into:
* what is your maximum real time at the end of the run? If it is a fraction of a microsecond, this is just a transient
* the fields may be malformed and that's why it doesn't look like a resonant mode (neither TE nor TM) because it is NOT a resonant mode, it is NOT a standing wave !!!!
TT did report some interesting behavior in a non-resonate system. I'm afraid he wasn't too clear on what happened with the frustum. I think he was saying that he accidentally allowed a trickle of (um random rf, he wasn't clear on this point) to go into the frustum all night, then saw a directional "pop" when rf energy on a resonant frequency was injected into the frustum. Interesting, as this seem analogous to blowing up a balloon and then punching a hole in it. If so, it might be that the transient nature of an unstable mode is somehow "charging" the frustum then discharging it over a period of time.
I can't help but wonder if the dielectric properties of humid air play into this somehow.
Following from posts about safety earlier this week. Found this in my wiki, have not studied it thoroughly yet so this is a share not a recommendation. Please let me know if there are copyright issues with sharing such things
So I've been thinking this whole time I had a TE013 mode...
But going back to the NASA Frustum Modes document I think mine looks more like a TE113, but I'm not sure.
So I've been thinking this whole time I had a TE013 mode...
But going back to the NASA Frustum Modes document I think mine looks more like a TE113, but I'm not sure.
A little like this?
Shell
Added: What are your dims?
TT did report some interesting behavior in a non-resonate system. I'm afraid he wasn't too clear on what happened with the frustum. I think he was saying that he accidentally allowed a trickle of (um random rf, he wasn't clear on this point) to go into the frustum all night, then saw a directional "pop" when rf energy on a resonant frequency was injected into the frustum. Interesting, as this seem analogous to blowing up a balloon and then punching a hole in it. If so, it might be that the transient nature of an unstable mode is somehow "charging" the frustum then discharging it over a period of time.
I can't help but wonder if the dielectric properties of humid air play into this somehow.
Reminds me a little bit of the development of the Leyden Jar (sans the electric shock).
As posted to EmDriveResearch:
My PSA is increasing fairly quickly (means they still have not yet killed all the cancer). Next week starts more surgery, radiation treatment and maybe drugs. As this will put a damper on my plans, here is a short update from a bit of behind the curtain action.
Take care Phil and follow the Doc's orders. You have a lot of work left to do.
