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#2600
by
Rodal
on 04 Feb, 2016 16:35
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@ Rodal
Do you mean, that the EM drive needs a sort of kickstart? Like e.g. a mini rocket supplying the initial velocity for the first moments?
Yes, if the EM Drive "anomalous force" were to be due to negative mass-energy.
Perhaps just a curious mathematical solution and not a real physical solution ?
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#2601
by
oliverio
on 04 Feb, 2016 16:39
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@Rodal
I am not sure I grask the notion of an engine which requires less energy to accelerate than decelerate. Given relativity is there some way to distinguish wrt to multiple frames?
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#2602
by
Mulletron
on 04 Feb, 2016 16:40
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Guys, there's been so much talk about negative mass and energy lately but how can anyone justify its existence in EmDrive? My feeble attempt back in thread 2 was to create a Casimir cavity between the HDPE puck and the small end plate to satisfy Van Tiggelen's theory (and I failed). Where is it coming from? A Casimir cavity, sneezed light, some other unexplored way? I couldn't find any nonlinear behavior in the EmDrive to justify squeezed light in thread 4 either
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=38203.msg1423451#msg1423451
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#2603
by
Stormbringer
on 04 Feb, 2016 16:45
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@Mulletron
it (negative energy and mass) would occur anywhere in the universe including the EM drive. but when you pump a system like in the EM drive you may alter the probabilities of stuff happening or the magnitude. The articles talks about its effect on the behavior of kaons and muons because it is readily testable; but it would logically effect everything because everything is embedded in space/time.
If time goes backwards energy behaves as if it were negative energy and mass acts as if it is negative mass. (I think)
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#2604
by
Rodal
on 04 Feb, 2016 16:50
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Guys, there's been so much talk about negative mass and energy lately but how can anyone justify its existence in EmDrive? My feeble attempt back in thread 2 was to create a Casimir cavity between the HDPE puck and the small end plate to satisfy Van Tiggelen's theory (and I failed). Where is it coming from? A Casimir cavity, sneezed light? I couldn't find any nonlinear behavior in the EmDrive to justify squeezed light.
Negative mass-energy arises as a necessity (to conserve momentum-energy) if the EM Drive is a closed-system without any external forces or fields responsible for the anomalous force and without ejecting mass-energy.
Negative mass is a necessity for Minotti's GR explanation and many reaction-less propulsion ideas (Alcubierre, etc.). Also discussed by Woodward for one kind of Mach effect and by Dr. White.
Negative mass resolves the conservation of energy conundrum.
I said that I was assuming negative mass-energy and looking at the consequences. I provided no physical justification for the practical reality of being able to create negative mass-energy in the EM Drive or elsewhere.
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#2605
by
Stormbringer
on 04 Feb, 2016 16:54
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If the articles i am reading are correct and what i remember about having read about time reversed conditions is true then negative energy and mass are a natural product of the universe.
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#2606
by
Rodal
on 04 Feb, 2016 16:57
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@Rodal
I am not sure I grask the notion of an engine which requires less energy to accelerate than decelerate. Given relativity is there some way to distinguish wrt to multiple frames?
1) The equations of conservation of momentum used are frame-indifferent and verified in experiments
2) The behavior of deltaMass/InitialMass is
continuous as a function of deltaV/c
3) The different behavior for +deltaV/c than for - deltaV/c, both under +InitialVelocity/c is a mathematical necessity to satisfy conservation of momentum with negative mass. The plots show that deceleration can also be produced by an increase in mass.
4) Velocity frames are frame-indifferent. Accelerating frames are privileged frames of reference.
5) The necessary creation of negative mass to produce this behavior (for conservation of momentum) may be a mathematical curiosity and may not be a physical solution.
6) So to answer your question: I don't know of any engine or generator that involves creation of negative mass, do you?
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#2607
by
Mulletron
on 04 Feb, 2016 16:58
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I looked very hard for negative effective mass (most recently with the diametric drive results) and negative energy (with the Casimir cavity idea, remember Paul March's anomalous thrust reversal with the melted nylon bolt?) and I couldn't for the life of me justify it.
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#2608
by
CW
on 04 Feb, 2016 16:58
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Guys, there's been so much talk about negative mass and energy lately but how can anyone justify its existence in EmDrive? My feeble attempt back in thread 2 was to create a Casimir cavity between the HDPE puck and the small end plate to satisfy Van Tiggelen's theory (and I failed). Where is it coming from? A Casimir cavity, sneezed light? I couldn't find any nonlinear behavior in the EmDrive to justify squeezed light.
Negative mass-energy arises as a necessity (to conserve momentum-energy) if the EM Drive is a closed-system without any external forces of fields responsible for the anomalous force and without ejecting mass-energy.
Negative mass is a necessity for Minotti's GR explanation and many reaction-less propulsion ideas (Alcubierre, etc.). Also discussed by Woodward for one kind of Mach effect and by Dr. White.
Negative mass resolves the conservation of energy conundrum.
I said that I was assuming negative mass-energy and looking at the consequences. I provided no physical justification for the practical reality of being able to create negative mass-energy in the EM Drive or elsewhere.
So, going by that hypothesis, if positive energy is supplied to generate the negative energy needed for accelerating the EM drive propellantlessly, it could
formally work? Sound like a mathematical artifact to me, but who knows. If we don't at least try, we will never find out
. Maybe reality is more preposterous than we think. But wait, we have quantum mechanics. If that is not 'preposterous', I don't know what is
.
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#2609
by
Stormbringer
on 04 Feb, 2016 17:00
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long story short: time is quantisized but because the shortest length of time that can be measured is longer than the plank interval there is "free travel" in the steering wheel of time. This means that time actually flows backwards at tiny but possibly measureable intervals. if it does so then the description and math of physics should be the time reversed versions. which leads to negative energy and mass.
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#2610
by
Mulletron
on 04 Feb, 2016 17:02
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long story short: time is quantisized but because the shortest length of time that can be measured is longer than the plank interval there is "free travel" in the steering wheel of time. This means that time actually flows backwards at tiny but possibly measureable intervals. if it does so then the description and math of physics should be the time reversed versions. which leads to negative energy and mass.
Wut?
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#2611
by
Rodal
on 04 Feb, 2016 17:09
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I looked very hard for negative effective mass (most recently with the diametric drive results) and negative energy (with the Casimir cavity idea, remember Paul March's anomalous thrust reversal with the melted nylon bolt?) and I couldn't for the life of me justify it.
The diametric drive involves an initial negative mass, it does not involve the continuous creation of negative mass.
The papers I have seen from Bondi and Forward involve an initial negative mass, they do not involve the continuous creation of negative mass.
Their discussion of conservation of momentum (that I have seen) is much simpler, giving the fact that they only involve an initial negative mass instead of a variable mass.
What is being examined here instead is the creation of negative mass, starting from zero negative mass, and arises as a necessity of conserving momentum in a closed-system self-accelerating (instead of involving two separate particles as in the diametric drive one of them having initial negative mass).
Have you examined any papers (*) that discuss the continuous creation of negative mass, starting from zero negative mass, and its consequences for conservation of momentum?
____
(*) except for Woodward's who does discuss the creation of negative mass through one type of Mach Effect. However, I am not familiar whether Woodward has discussed the conservation of momentum equations and analyzed it as I did. Woodward's hypothesis has always been on the table regarding the EM Drive, certainly Paul March thinks so.
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#2612
by
Stormbringer
on 04 Feb, 2016 17:18
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long story short: time is quantisized but because the shortest length of time that can be measured is longer than the plank interval there is "free travel" in the steering wheel of time. This means that time actually flows backwards at tiny but possibly measureable intervals. if it does so then the description and math of physics should be the time reversed versions. which leads to negative energy and mass.
Wut?
There have been at least three articles (some citing new papers) on the nature of time or space time in the past 7 or so days. the salient fact is the authors believe or cite sources that believe that at tiny intervals the normal forward progression of time slips backwards but the overall direction remains forward over longer sections of time.
I remember reading long ago that if time runs in reverse then ordinary energy and matter have their signs reversed in the physics equations that describe reality. IOW regular energy becomes negative energy and ordinary mass becomes negative mass if my memory isn't too faulty.
One of the recent articles said that the plank interval is not the quantum of time but that instead the quantum of time (the smallest discrete interval of time that can be measured) is probably longer than the plank interval. And while this is not important for the macro world this can have profound effects for physics at the micro level.
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#2613
by
Stormbringer
on 04 Feb, 2016 17:46
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#2614
by
Rodal
on 04 Feb, 2016 17:49
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As i said there were at least three articles on this subject matter recently. Here is one about the plank interval etc...
http://phys.org/news/2016-02-physicists-implications-quantum-mechanics-philosophy.html
I have not found the third which i guess is the one that talks about momentary backsliding of time. i will keep trying.
It should also be mentioned that in periodic structures the effective mass can also attain a negative sign:
Batz, S. & Peschel, U. Diametrically driven self-accelerating pulses in a photonic crystal fiber. Phys. Rev. Lett. 110, 193901 (2013).
Luo, C., Johnson, S., Joannopoulos, J. & Pendry, J. All-angle negative refraction without negative effective index. Phys. Rev. B 65, 201104 (2002).
Notomi, M. Theory of light propagation in strongly modulated photonic crystals: Refraction like behavior in the vicinity of the photonic band gap. Phys. Rev. B 62, 10696–10705 (2000).
Morsch, O. & Oberthaler, M. Dynamics of Bose–Einstein condensates in optical lattices. Rev. Mod. Phys. 78, 179–215 (2006).
Sakaguchi, H. & Malomed, B. A. Dynamics of positive- and negative-mass solitons in optical lattices and inverted traps. J. Phys. B. 37, 1443–1459 (2004).
Yao, S., Zhou, X. & Hu, G. Experimental study on negative effective mass in a 1D mass–spring system. New J. Phys. 10, 43020 (2008).Shanshan Yao, Xiaoming Zhou*, and Gengkai Hu† Negative effective mass below a cut-off frequency
http://xxx.tau.ac.il/pdf/1001.0839v1we indicate that our findings have the similarity with an EM wave phenomenon that the hollow metallic waveguide can be considered as 1D plasma. The EM waveguide structures can be utilized to engineer surface plasmons
Tajmar Propellantless Propulsion with Negative Matter Generated by Electric Charges
https://tu-dresden.de/die_tu_dresden/fakultaeten/fakultaet_maschinenwesen/ilr/rfs/forschung/folder.2007-08-21.5231434330/ag_raumfahrtantriebe/JPC%20-%20Propellantless%20Propulsion%20with%20Negative%20Matter%20Generated%20by%20Electric%20Charges.pdf
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#2615
by
Stormbringer
on 04 Feb, 2016 17:59
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Jack Sarfatti also believes that meta materials with a negative index of refraction have defacto negative mass/energy. The cites about negative indexes of refraction above are a nice surprise because Woodward was fairly skeptical that Sarfatti would be lucky enough for that to be true.
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#2616
by
Mulletron
on 04 Feb, 2016 18:03
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! Negative effective mass/energy! It means that these properties are not a feature of the standard model of the universe, they are emergent from technology (endless possibilities btw), aka artificially produced configurations, such as negative effective mass, hole flow, Cooper pairs, heavy fermions...it just keeps going and going.
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#2617
by
Stormbringer
on 04 Feb, 2016 18:07
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I looked very hard for negative effective mass (most recently with the diametric drive results) and negative energy (with the Casimir cavity idea, remember Paul March's anomalous thrust reversal with the melted nylon bolt?) and I couldn't for the life of me justify it.
The diametric drive involves an initial negative mass, it does not involve the continuous creation of negative mass.
The papers I have seen from Bondi and Forward involve an initial negative mass, they do not involve the continuous creation of negative mass.
Their discussion of conservation of momentum (that I have seen) is much simpler, giving the fact that they only involve an initial negative mass instead of a variable mass.
What is being examined here instead is the creation of negative mass, starting from zero negative mass, and arises as a necessity of conserving momentum in a closed-system self-accelerating (instead of involving two separate particles as in the diametric drive one of them having initial negative mass).
Have you examined any papers (*) that discuss the continuous creation of negative mass, starting from zero negative mass, and its consequences for conservation of momentum?
____
(*) except for Woodward's who does discuss the creation of negative mass through one type of Mach Effect. However, I am not familiar whether Woodward has discussed the conservation of momentum equations and analyzed it as I did. Woodward's hypothesis has always been on the table regarding the EM Drive, certainly Paul March thinks so.
You are thinking of the original incarnation of the diametric drive idea. He is talking about a recent actual experiment involving laser light forced to follow a circular path. it results in small segments of negative energy but because the path is circular there is always some part of the waveform that is negative. many of them in fact. i would guess the entire circle could be considered a region of at least slightly negative energy. but i don't know how long it would take to find the proper cite. it's several years old now and google hates old science articles.
this may be it:
http://phys.org/news/2013-10-optical-diametric.html
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#2618
by
Rodal
on 04 Feb, 2016 18:14
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I looked very hard for negative effective mass (most recently with the diametric drive results) and negative energy (with the Casimir cavity idea, remember Paul March's anomalous thrust reversal with the melted nylon bolt?) and I couldn't for the life of me justify it.
The diametric drive involves an initial negative mass, it does not involve the continuous creation of negative mass.
The papers I have seen from Bondi and Forward involve an initial negative mass, they do not involve the continuous creation of negative mass.
Their discussion of conservation of momentum (that I have seen) is much simpler, giving the fact that they only involve an initial negative mass instead of a variable mass.
What is being examined here instead is the creation of negative mass, starting from zero negative mass, and arises as a necessity of conserving momentum in a closed-system self-accelerating (instead of involving two separate particles as in the diametric drive one of them having initial negative mass).
Have you examined any papers (*) that discuss the continuous creation of negative mass, starting from zero negative mass, and its consequences for conservation of momentum?
____
(*) except for Woodward's who does discuss the creation of negative mass through one type of Mach Effect. However, I am not familiar whether Woodward has discussed the conservation of momentum equations and analyzed it as I did. Woodward's hypothesis has always been on the table regarding the EM Drive, certainly Paul March thinks so.
You are thinking of the original incarnation of the diametric drive idea. He is talking about a recent actual experiment involving laser light forced to follow a circular path. it results in small segments of negative energy but because the path is circular there is always some part of the waveform that is negative. many of them in fact. i would guess the entire circle could be considered a region of at least slightly negative energy. but i don't know how long it would take to find the proper cite. it's several years old now and google hates old science articles.
I looked at that reference and I did not find a conservation of momentum equation as the one I dealt with, it still looks like an optical analog of the original diametric drive instead of what I am discussing.
Different things, unless Mulletron can explain why they are the same, which I don't see, because what I am discussing is a
single lumped object with variable mass, self-accelerating without the involvement of a separate object with different mass.
What I am discussing is more similar to one of the Woodward Mach effects, in a sense, rather than a diametric drive analog.
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#2619
by
SteveD
on 04 Feb, 2016 18:27
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Question that is bothering me. The formula for a photon rocket is N=W/c where N is the force in newtons, W is the output power of the laser or other highly (perfectly) collimated photon source and c is the speed of light. Since the force is generated by the emission of photons, CoE would require that the photons must be redshifted during the emission process (lose a certain number of plank constants of energy to account for the acceleration).
So is the redshift: redshift(in plank constants) = (Total number of plank constants of energy/c)/number of photons for any given length of time? That seems problematic.
. Maybe reality is more preposterous than we think. But wait, we have quantum mechanics. If that is not 'preposterous', I don't know what is