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#240
by
OnlyMe
on 16 Dec, 2015 13:07
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Could the following note maybe explain why the EMDrive could work?
Professor of Physics, A. P. French, has a relevant note in his very informative book, Special
Relativity (1968), p. 242-243; 267 "Relativity and electricity":
"Now the electric field due to a stationary source charge is radial and, of course, spherically
symmetrical; that is, it is the same in all directions. It is simply the Coulomb field . . . . If the
source charge is moving uniformly, the electric field is no longer spherically symmetrical. Its
strength is different in different directions. But, at each instant, the direction of the electric field
is still radial with respect to the position of the source charge at that same instant.
If you think about this last result a bit—that at each instant the electric field due to a uniformly
moving source charge is directed radially away from the position of the source charge at that
same instant—you may begin to realize that this is a very surprising result."
I found this paper very tought provoking and tackling all sorts of problems with curreny theories out of the box.
http://scripturalphysics.org/4v4a/BeyondEinstein.pdf
This really isn't something new. An analog is often discussed with respect to the gravitational field of a uniformly moving object. Something that is important to remember is that almost always these are essentially vacuum solution hypotheticals. Meaning they only involve how the field and its source are affected by either a uniform or in some cases accelerating motion. Nothing else exists in these hypotheticals other than the charge and its electric field in this case.., and the important thing to remember, when thinking of the effect relative to a resonating frustum, or any object is, that the field electric or gravitational propagates at the speed of light, while any realistic uniform motion will be classical. Only when the uniform mortion becomes relativistic or should the motion involve some significant acceleration and distances, would there be any detectable asymmetry in the field, relative to its source.
In the case of gravitational fields, there has been a lot of work to develope models that account for how the acceleration of an object affects the field, because we have many objects in the solar system which are accelerating relative to our preferred frame, the earth.... And yet the results remain for the most part insignificant, since even the accelerations are small compared to the propagation speed of the field.
In a way some of the attempts to detect gravitational waves are based on this same principle, the affect of accelerations on the way a gravitational field propagates... Think binary massive objects, rapidly orbiting one anther. Their velocities relative to our detection devices are significant and changing, which should result in detectable changes in the propagation of the field... Changes we have yet to confirm, but based on the same fundamental concepts presented in your post.
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#241
by
dustinthewind
on 16 Dec, 2015 13:32
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Could the following note maybe explain why the EMDrive could work?
Professor of Physics, A. P. French, has a relevant note in his very informative book, Special
Relativity (1968), p. 242-243; 267 "Relativity and electricity":
"Now the electric field due to a stationary source charge is radial and, of course, spherically
symmetrical; that is, it is the same in all directions. It is simply the Coulomb field . . . . If the
source charge is moving uniformly, the electric field is no longer spherically symmetrical. Its
strength is different in different directions. But, at each instant, the direction of the electric field
is still radial with respect to the position of the source charge at that same instant.
If you think about this last result a bit—that at each instant the electric field due to a uniformly
moving source charge is directed radially away from the position of the source charge at that
same instant—you may begin to realize that this is a very surprising result."
I found this paper very tought provoking and tackling all sorts of problems with curreny theories out of the box.
http://scripturalphysics.org/4v4a/BeyondEinstein.pdf
I think Edward Purcell in his book called it electric field pancaking which happens when observing the charge in a relative moving frame. He insisted that the electric flux was conserved as the charge field pancaked so as to conserve charge. I think electric field pancaking is why objects tend to flatten when moving at relativistic speed with respect to an observer. It's also why a velocity dependent dipole potential is represented by the magnetic field (charge bunches up on the side of the current loop with higher relative velocity with respect to a moving observer. It can be thought it is because the E-fields are flattened on one side of the current loop or that time is slowed down on one side. I think Maxwell's equations take pancaking into account.
Edit: Curl E =-dB/dt, curl B = ... , divergence of B=0, divergence E = rho/epsilon_o take into account the relativistic behavior of the charge electric fields so that the charges can be modeled as simple spherical electric fields and then have the magnetic effects superimposed over it. It was likely easier than modeling relativistic electric fields.
There are some interesting effects where if you accelerate the charge in a solenoid, it pushes more flux out the open ends of the solenoid (via pancaking). Flux is pushed perpendicular to the direction of travel. If you have a low capacitance capacitor that is concentric around the solenoid (two large concentric sheets) and you accelerate the current the flux through the capacitor changes and holds giving a voltage. It is such a small amount of charge for a small capacitance that you can only observe it with a high resistance volt meter (across the two sheets) and not long before the current bleeds through but when you shut off the solenoid the voltage reverses so the pressure was there the whole time. Of course I was worried other effects might be contributing to that but I suspected that is what it was. I had to use Styrofoam to hold the capacitor sheets. If you use wood the charge will bleed off through the wood, to return the capacitor back to zero volts, because the wood is too low of a resistance. Even Styrofoam could only hold it for a bit. It took a high resistance volt-meter as well. I am not sure how exactly that effect fits into Maxwell's equations. A changing magnetic field should be like light (induce an impulse) but it wouldn't induce a constant pressure at constant current I would think. It was an interesting experiment.
@sghill xD ya I get it barking up the same tree and that tree is falling. Tree falls in the forest and no one is around does it make any sound. Especially dealing with what might be imaginary particles. clever.
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#242
by
sghill
on 16 Dec, 2015 14:49
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"DOES THE QUANTUM VACUUM FALL NEAR THE EARTH?"
by: Tom Ostoma and Mike Trushyk
1999
What if no one hears it?
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#243
by
rfmwguy
on 16 Dec, 2015 17:12
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"DOES THE QUANTUM VACUUM FALL NEAR THE EARTH?"
by: Tom Ostoma and Mike Trushyk
1999
What if no one hears it?
Physics/science discussions can be dry and tedious...we all need a little laugh every once in a while.
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#244
by
Rodal
on 16 Dec, 2015 18:05
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As of 12/15/2015, 8:00 PM/EST.
Is there any (NEW) news on the EM DRIVE testing?
The last institutional published experimental report was by Tajmar at the Technische Universität Dresden in Germany.
We are waiting to hear news from NASA regarding:
1) Publication of NASA's Eagleworks EM Drive tests performed in vacuum, including discussion/analysis of thermal expansion effects and effects from forces resulting from the magnetic damper.
2) Confirmation of whether or not a new testing campaign will commence at NASA Glenn to replicate the tests at NASA Johnson (Eagleworks), and if so when are the NASA Glenn results expected to be announced/reported.
Remarkably, Yang (in China) has not published any new results for a considerable amount of time, and her last publication dealt with the considerable thermal effects on her experiments (her paper on temperature vs. time measurements throughout a heated EM Drive using embedded thermocouples).
Concerning Do-It-Yourself experiments, the last experimental report was by RFMWGUY. We are waiting to hear from Shell on her meticulously and thoroughly designed testing program.
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#245
by
sghill
on 16 Dec, 2015 19:45
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Confirmation of whether or not a new testing campaign will commence at NASA Glenn to replicate the tests at NASA Johnson (Eagleworks), and if so when are the NASA Glenn results expected to be announced/reported.
Remarkably, Yang (in China) has not published any new results for a considerable amount of time, and her last publication dealt with the considerable thermal effects on her experiments (her paper on temperature vs. time measurements throughout a heated EM Drive using embedded thermocouples).
Any announcement that EW is going to Glenn would be wildly major news IMHO because it has to mean that they've seen thrust levels above the noise floor that the Glenn equipment requires before testing there, and also the thrust isn't already attributable to anomalous thrust.
The lack of publishing from Yang may be because she's discovered that her reported thrust was anomalous as she tightens up her testing methods. Or not.
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#246
by
Rodal
on 16 Dec, 2015 19:50
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Confirmation of whether or not a new testing campaign will commence at NASA Glenn to replicate the tests at NASA Johnson (Eagleworks), and if so when are the NASA Glenn results expected to be announced/reported.
Remarkably, Yang (in China) has not published any new results for a considerable amount of time, and her last publication dealt with the considerable thermal effects on her experiments (her paper on temperature vs. time measurements throughout a heated EM Drive using embedded thermocouples).
Any announcement that EW is going to Glenn would be wildly major news IMHO because it has to mean that they've seen thrust levels above the noise floor that the Glenn equipment requires before testing there, and also the thrust isn't already attributable to anomalous thrust.
The lack of publishing from Yang may be because she's discovered that her reported thrust was anomalous as she tightens up her testing methods. Or not.
I'll be surprised if NASA Glenn does not proceed to replication testing (to confirm or nullify the Eagleworks tests) . I expect that they will.
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#247
by
rfmwguy
on 16 Dec, 2015 20:52
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Confirmation of whether or not a new testing campaign will commence at NASA Glenn to replicate the tests at NASA Johnson (Eagleworks), and if so when are the NASA Glenn results expected to be announced/reported.
Remarkably, Yang (in China) has not published any new results for a considerable amount of time, and her last publication dealt with the considerable thermal effects on her experiments (her paper on temperature vs. time measurements throughout a heated EM Drive using embedded thermocouples).
Any announcement that EW is going to Glenn would be wildly major news IMHO because it has to mean that they've seen thrust levels above the noise floor that the Glenn equipment requires before testing there, and also the thrust isn't already attributable to anomalous thrust.
The lack of publishing from Yang may be because she's discovered that her reported thrust was anomalous as she tightens up her testing methods. Or not.
I'll be surprised if NASA Glenn does not proceed to replication testing (to confirm or nullify the Eagleworks tests) . I expect that they will.
Think this is a good supposition, Doc. Hope it happens next year. Been kinda quiet. I can't even get our pal Shell to posts pics...her excuse is she's moving her entire test stand because of the cold...likely story, Doc. She lives in Hawaii, doesn't she?
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#248
by
SeeShells
on 16 Dec, 2015 22:33
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Confirmation of whether or not a new testing campaign will commence at NASA Glenn to replicate the tests at NASA Johnson (Eagleworks), and if so when are the NASA Glenn results expected to be announced/reported.
Remarkably, Yang (in China) has not published any new results for a considerable amount of time, and her last publication dealt with the considerable thermal effects on her experiments (her paper on temperature vs. time measurements throughout a heated EM Drive using embedded thermocouples).
Any announcement that EW is going to Glenn would be wildly major news IMHO because it has to mean that they've seen thrust levels above the noise floor that the Glenn equipment requires before testing there, and also the thrust isn't already attributable to anomalous thrust.
The lack of publishing from Yang may be because she's discovered that her reported thrust was anomalous as she tightens up her testing methods. Or not.
I'll be surprised if NASA Glenn does not proceed to replication testing (to confirm or nullify the Eagleworks tests) . I expect that they will.
Think this is a good supposition, Doc. Hope it happens next year. Been kinda quiet. I can't even get our pal Shell to posts pics...her excuse is she's moving her entire test stand because of the cold...likely story, Doc. She lives in Hawaii, doesn't she?
HA! 2
oF this morning going to the doctors. Got back a bit ago, gave a "like" and took a nap. No work done today sorry.
The reason it's also taking me a longer time to "get it all back together" is the frustum. I built the drive like Fort Knox. Main reason was to simply to vent the heat from the frustum down a tube to the center of the beam and I had to seal the frustum air tight. As it heats the internal air in the drive can equalize pressures without adding a large thermal ballooning effect right down to the center of the beam. You'll see it in pictures after I get it back together and the mess cleaned up a little. Thought it was time to post this little gem in how to stabilize a thermally expanding frustum balloon.
Shell
PS: The air line comes from the top end seal not the side.
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#249
by
rfmwguy
on 16 Dec, 2015 22:46
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Confirmation of whether or not a new testing campaign will commence at NASA Glenn to replicate the tests at NASA Johnson (Eagleworks), and if so when are the NASA Glenn results expected to be announced/reported.
Remarkably, Yang (in China) has not published any new results for a considerable amount of time, and her last publication dealt with the considerable thermal effects on her experiments (her paper on temperature vs. time measurements throughout a heated EM Drive using embedded thermocouples).
Any announcement that EW is going to Glenn would be wildly major news IMHO because it has to mean that they've seen thrust levels above the noise floor that the Glenn equipment requires before testing there, and also the thrust isn't already attributable to anomalous thrust.
The lack of publishing from Yang may be because she's discovered that her reported thrust was anomalous as she tightens up her testing methods. Or not.
I'll be surprised if NASA Glenn does not proceed to replication testing (to confirm or nullify the Eagleworks tests) . I expect that they will.
Think this is a good supposition, Doc. Hope it happens next year. Been kinda quiet. I can't even get our pal Shell to posts pics...her excuse is she's moving her entire test stand because of the cold...likely story, Doc. She lives in Hawaii, doesn't she?
HA! 2oF this morning going to the doctors. Got back a bit ago, gave a "like" and took a nap. No work done today sorry.
The reason it's also taking me a longer time to "get it all back together" is the frustum. I built the drive like Fort Knox. Main reason was to simply to vent the heat from the frustum down a tube to the center of the beam and I had to seal the frustum air tight. As it heats the internal air in the drive can equalize pressures without adding a large thermal ballooning effect right down to the center of the beam. You'll see it in pictures after I get it back together and the mess cleaned up a little. Thought it was time to post this little gem in how to stabilize a thermally expanding frustum balloon.
Shell
PS: The air line comes from the top end seal not the side.
Wow, you've taken it up a notch shell...just like we've all suspected...thermal mitigation without a copper mesh...hard to do, but looks like you're onto something...well conceived imho.
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#250
by
SeeShells
on 16 Dec, 2015 22:59
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Confirmation of whether or not a new testing campaign will commence at NASA Glenn to replicate the tests at NASA Johnson (Eagleworks), and if so when are the NASA Glenn results expected to be announced/reported.
Remarkably, Yang (in China) has not published any new results for a considerable amount of time, and her last publication dealt with the considerable thermal effects on her experiments (her paper on temperature vs. time measurements throughout a heated EM Drive using embedded thermocouples).
Any announcement that EW is going to Glenn would be wildly major news IMHO because it has to mean that they've seen thrust levels above the noise floor that the Glenn equipment requires before testing there, and also the thrust isn't already attributable to anomalous thrust.
The lack of publishing from Yang may be because she's discovered that her reported thrust was anomalous as she tightens up her testing methods. Or not.
I'll be surprised if NASA Glenn does not proceed to replication testing (to confirm or nullify the Eagleworks tests) . I expect that they will.
Think this is a good supposition, Doc. Hope it happens next year. Been kinda quiet. I can't even get our pal Shell to posts pics...her excuse is she's moving her entire test stand because of the cold...likely story, Doc. She lives in Hawaii, doesn't she?
HA! 2oF this morning going to the doctors. Got back a bit ago, gave a "like" and took a nap. No work done today sorry.
The reason it's also taking me a longer time to "get it all back together" is the frustum. I built the drive like Fort Knox. Main reason was to simply to vent the heat from the frustum down a tube to the center of the beam and I had to seal the frustum air tight. As it heats the internal air in the drive can equalize pressures without adding a large thermal ballooning effect right down to the center of the beam. You'll see it in pictures after I get it back together and the mess cleaned up a little. Thought it was time to post this little gem in how to stabilize a thermally expanding frustum balloon.
Shell
PS: The air line comes from the top end seal not the side.
Wow, you've taken it up a notch shell...just like we've all suspected...thermal mitigation without a copper mesh...hard to do, but looks like you're onto something...well conceived imho.
Thanks rfmwguy. Got the idea when we were all discussing how to mitigate the balloon heating and thermal rise effect here a couple months ago. It just worked out. Of course I had to seal the very top plate by soldering it on. That was dumb. "Finally" got it apart and I've had to redesign it so I take it apart with some screws from now on.
I thought about if thermally it wasn't going to do the trick to pipe in another cooling line but so far releasing the pressures in a controlled way where they wouldn't impact by creating a jet of air from the frustum works.
Shell
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#251
by
rfmwguy
on 16 Dec, 2015 23:08
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Been reading the L2 threads a lot, learning all I can as I think Level 2 style and substance will benefit our topic threads. Just some 40,000 foot observations:
1. Posters are well versed in their topics.
2. Posters are well versed in their thread history.
3. I see respectful challenges and equally respectful rebuttals.
4. Info is really fresh, new stuff and little repetition...helpful links posted in that case.
5. "Insider" info where permitted by law. (extra impressed about this)
Obviously L2 is focused on traditional topics where much more is known, but still, there is a lot to aspire towards. Generally though, our speculative topic seems to be keeping the high ground and does mirror some L2 threads...if Doc is right, 2016 testing could bring many here for info...seems we've got a lot of people here that already know how to do the right thing.
/end stream of consciousness since I've not posted much lately.
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#252
by
glennfish
on 16 Dec, 2015 23:47
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Main reason was to simply to vent the heat from the frustum down a tube to the center of the beam and I had to seal the frustum air tight. As it heats the internal air in the drive can equalize pressures without adding a large thermal ballooning effect right down to the center of the beam.
Shell,
Granted that you can vector airflow from expansion to where-ever, which should control one thermal effect, what are your thoughts / approach to eliminate lift, i.e. the heated air per volume inside the frustum will weigh less than the cooler air per volume outside? Also, since you will have a variable radius radiator which will create directional airflow on the outside surface, have you control thoughts for that? Your pure thermal source becomes your control for those two thermal factors which you characterize & model before turning on a tuned frustum mag?
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#253
by
rfmwguy
on 17 Dec, 2015 00:14
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Housekeeping note:
Post without commentary and link removed regarding david pares and his experimentation with a warp drive...is not an emdrive, sorry. Also, all offsite links should have commentary preceding them to avoid misunderstanding or misdirection....just a safeguard.
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#254
by
SeeShells
on 17 Dec, 2015 01:05
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Main reason was to simply to vent the heat from the frustum down a tube to the center of the beam and I had to seal the frustum air tight. As it heats the internal air in the drive can equalize pressures without adding a large thermal ballooning effect right down to the center of the beam.
Shell,
Granted that you can vector airflow from expansion to where-ever, which should control one thermal effect, what are your thoughts / approach to eliminate lift, i.e. the heated air per volume inside the frustum will weigh less than the cooler air per volume outside? Also, since you will have a variable radius radiator which will create directional airflow on the outside surface, have you control thoughts for that? Your pure thermal source becomes your control for those two thermal factors which you characterize & model before turning on a tuned frustum mag?
Glen,
The magnetron isn't on the frustum, but in a separate area in it's own Faraday cage cooled by a fan. I'm running the RF power to the waveguides on the frustum with a coax feed down the balance beam. The only heat in the frustum is produced from the RF inside the frustum from the waveguide insertion and heating from the modes. That is much easier to profile. I have a small thermal plume from the frustum but the heated pressure diff (balloon effect) is vented out and down the air line.
I threw together a rough drawing as it can show better than my bad writing.
Shell
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#255
by
LancerSolurus
on 17 Dec, 2015 01:48
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Has anyone tested graphene coated copper test chambers?
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#256
by
Rodal
on 17 Dec, 2015 01:58
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Has anyone tested graphene coated copper test chambers?
No, nobody has reported testing with inner graphene coating.
Prior to that, the first order of business should be to test a ferromagnetic material at one end, as suggested by Fran De Aquino in his paper, who predicts a major improvement:
https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=36313.msg1328541#msg1328541Nobody has reported testing with a ferromagnetic end instead of diamagnetic (copper).
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#257
by
ThinkerX
on 17 Dec, 2015 02:54
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Ok, we have a number of DIY projects currently underway. The builders are making progress, or at least attempting to deal with the major artifact issues with this device.
Same story with the MEEP modelers.
But, all this means little without a theory of some sort to incorporate/explain the results of these experiments that does not provoke automatic, justifiable dismissal from the mainstream physics community. In my view, of the physicists publically willing to admit to looking into the EM Drive, our own Doctor Rodal is closest to such a theory.
In the past, there have been multiple piecemeal suggestions for the DIY types and MEEP modelers. However, this is a scattershot approach at best.
Therefor, I suggest that Doctor Rodal - or another qualified physicist - put forth a list of experiments he would like to see the DIY and MEEP types attempt, keeping in mind the restrictions these people are working under. A sort of 'checklist' that might at least establish a bit of uniformity between the different designs and models.
I would suggest this list, once compiled, be added to the Wiki and our new EM Driven site. Something to provide a bit of guidance for the experimenters.
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#258
by
OnlyMe
on 17 Dec, 2015 03:15
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Ok, we have a number of DIY projects currently underway. The builders are making progress, or at least attempting to deal with the major artifact issues with this device.
Same story with the MEEP modelers.
But, all this means little without a theory of some sort to incorporate/explain the results of these experiments that does not provoke automatic, justifiable dismissal from the mainstream physics community. In my view, of the physicists publically willing to admit to looking into the EM Drive, our own Doctor Rodal is closest to such a theory.
In the past, there have been multiple piecemeal suggestions for the DIY types and MEEP modelers. However, this is a scattershot approach at best.
Therefor, I suggest that Doctor Rodal - or another qualified physicist - put forth a list of experiments he would like to see the DIY and MEEP types attempt, keeping in mind the restrictions these people are working under. A sort of 'checklist' that might at least establish a bit of uniformity between the different designs and models.
I would suggest this list, once compiled, be added to the Wiki and our new EM Driven site. Something to provide a bit of guidance for the experimenters.
This is a good long game plan, but as an observer on the sidelines, it seems to me that the best approach would be to first work out just what is required to reproduce thrust at the levels claimed by Shawyer and Yang. Since everyone including Eagleworks is really starting from scratch, neither Shawyer or Yang provide enough detail to reproduce their frustums and microwave sources, having an idea how to deal with the systemic and heat related issues is good, but it is a waste of time and money until you have a decent frustum that does produce enough thrust that it is even possible to try and rule out noise.
As a separate issue, it really seems from what limited information I have gone through at present, that until someone is able to scale up the delivered power to several hundred watts resononating, you may not get the kind of thrust in either of the earlier claims.
Basically I guess what I am saying is that because the DIYs are working in atmosphere and with limited resources, it will require a thrust in at least tens of mNs before any practical elimination of thermal and systemic effects will be practical.
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#259
by
zen-in
on 17 Dec, 2015 06:14
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...
This is a good long game plan, but as an observer on the sidelines, it seems to me that the best approach would be to first work out just what is required to reproduce thrust at the levels claimed by Shawyer and Yang. Since everyone including Eagleworks is really starting from scratch, neither Shawyer or Yang provide enough detail to reproduce their frustums and microwave sources, having an idea how to deal with the systemic and heat related issues is good, but it is a waste of time and money until you have a decent frustum that does produce enough thrust that it is even possible to try and rule out noise.
As a separate issue, it really seems from what limited information I have gone through at present, that until someone is able to scale up the delivered power to several hundred watts resononating, you may not get the kind of thrust in either of the earlier claims.
Basically I guess what I am saying is that because the DIYs are working in atmosphere and with limited resources, it will require a thrust in at least tens of mNs before any practical elimination of thermal and systemic effects will be practical.
This has been discussed before. Using several hundred Watts does not make the thermal response any less significant. It appears that at every power level thermal effects are greater than any indication of thrust. In the absence of any information from Yang or Shawyer that could be used to replicate their apparatus and independently confirm their results, the best that can be done is to build something close and test it. If this em-drive force does exist it would eventually be seen by some other experimenter even without knowing exactly what Shawyer or Yang did. Science has been down this path before. If the phenomena cannot be demonstrated, it doesn't exist.
