Author Topic: The Electromagnetic Wave Electric Field Force Thruster  (Read 40475 times)

Offline MathewOrman

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Re: The Electromagnetic Wave Electric Field Force Thruster
« Reply #100 on: 01/17/2019 11:03 am »
Someone else confirms Orman Force law which predicts when acceleration in motion of the charges is zero the EMF in wire will also be zero:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=5&v=XSWwrvT_c8w

Offline meberbs

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Re: The Electromagnetic Wave Electric Field Force Thruster
« Reply #101 on: 01/17/2019 04:27 pm »
Failed again: in the video the setup has nonuniform magnetic field and relative motion between charges and magnetic field is accelerated...
Again, the Lorentz force equation uses instantaneous velocity, so your made up requirement for constant velocity is meaningless. In any example, the acceleration induced by the magnetic field changes the velocity, so as soon as you start running the experiment, the condition is lost anyway. (Though magnetic fields on their own only change the direction of velocity.)

So, again the second setup is unrelated and you have no idea how to construct your own...
I know how to construct my own, but I have no reason to do so due to the effectively unlimited number of already existing examples. You still haven't explained why all of modern technology designed using Lorentz force still works.

I on the other hand have provided 3 examples of experimental setups where Lorentz law fails and Orman Force and low is supported as if acceleration is null Orman Force is null...
You have provided 0 examples where the Lorentz force fails, as the Lorentz force does not predict EMF for constant motion of a loop of wire through a uniform magnetic field. It is not clear from your experimental descriptions exactly what you did, but my guess at the second one is that you were spinning a magnet around its pole, which doesn't change the field. For the final paper you cited, you seem to have failed to notice they talk only of a singular, linear wire, not a loop. To actually make use of the EMF, you would need a loop, and the loop would have to extend outside the uniform magnetic field, otherwise the EMF from opposite sides of the loop would cancel out. Your claims of the Lorentz force not working are all based on your own misunderstandings of the Lorentz force and incorrect (strawman) claims that the Lorentz force only applies to constant velocity.

Perhaps you should provide an example of the above from academic sources as you claim that there are countless examples...
The original experiments were done in the 1800s. Straightforward demonstrations of it are classroom exercises, like the ones I have provided you. Anything else is application, and I have already listed basic applications.

By the way, what example in the video shows is Faraday's generator where there is physical brushing against conductive metal surface... With contact less electric field probes of modern oscilloscope the EMF is zero...
And there are no brush-less Faraday's generators...
More unsupported assertions. If friction with the brush caused anything (like a static charge from socks on carpet), the results in the video I provided would not have changed sign with the direction of spin of the disc.

Again, you have yet to give your so-called force law a form that results in consistent units. You can't solve anything with it without doing that. Also, you have not demonstrated using it for any practical application, doing numerical calculations would quickly result in you running into problems with the inconsistent units you are using.

It is trivial that your made up law cannot explain the fact that the motion in the first link I provided is approximately a circle. If there was any significant backwards acceleration as you claim (there isn't) in the experiment that implies the magnetic force is perpendicular to the direction of acceleration to get the loop started. After that though acceleration of the electrons is clearly a constant pointing to the center of the circle, so if that is being maintained by the magnetic field, suddenly your law has to change to force being parallel to the acceleration instead of perpendicular. Also to support the claim I just made that the acceleration is constant towards the center: that is true due to centripetal acceleration of v^2/r. Radius is obviously constant, and if the velocity was not constant, the the component of acceleration towards the center required to maintain constant radius would change non-linearly. This is not supported by the linear equation you wrote up.

Also, if there was significant acceleration back towards the exit of the electron gun, you would get a distorted shape, not a circle that ends up moving away from the electron gun at the end, further disproving your claim that the speed of the electrons was anything but constant.

That is 4 different issues with your claim from just 1 experiment
-units don't work
-direction of force relative to acceleration is undefined, and changes with time in this experiment
-force claimed by you is not consistent with experiment resulting in a nice circle.
-claims that the anode causes acceleration are not supported by the data

Someone else confirms Orman Force law which predicts when acceleration in motion of the charges is zero the EMF in wire will also be zero:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=5&v=XSWwrvT_c8w
The magnet is spinning around what is presumably its pole. This does not produce a changing magnetic flux through the loop of wire, so the net EMF for the whole loop is expected to be 0. The entire setup is backwards and inside out compared to a homopolar generator (which is what he calls his device). For the incorrect setup he built, the result he got is what is expected.

Offline JohnFornaro

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Re: The Electromagnetic Wave Electric Field Force Thruster
« Reply #102 on: 01/17/2019 05:16 pm »
Failed again....

C'mon Matthew.  Just stop.
Sometimes I just flat out don't get it.

Offline MathewOrman

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Re: The Electromagnetic Wave Electric Field Force Thruster
« Reply #103 on: 01/17/2019 06:02 pm »
Failed again: in the video the setup has nonuniform magnetic field and relative motion between charges and magnetic field is accelerated...
Again, the Lorentz force equation uses instantaneous velocity, so your made up requirement for constant velocity is meaningless. In any example, the acceleration induced by the magnetic field changes the velocity, so as soon as you start running the experiment, the condition is lost anyway. (Though magnetic fields on their own only change the direction of velocity.)

So, again the second setup is unrelated and you have no idea how to construct your own...
I know how to construct my own, but I have no reason to do so due to the effectively unlimited number of already existing examples. You still haven't explained why all of modern technology designed using Lorentz force still works.

I on the other hand have provided 3 examples of experimental setups where Lorentz law fails and Orman Force and low is supported as if acceleration is null Orman Force is null...
You have provided 0 examples where the Lorentz force fails, as the Lorentz force does not predict EMF for constant motion of a loop of wire through a uniform magnetic field. It is not clear from your experimental descriptions exactly what you did, but my guess at the second one is that you were spinning a magnet around its pole, which doesn't change the field. For the final paper you cited, you seem to have failed to notice they talk only of a singular, linear wire, not a loop. To actually make use of the EMF, you would need a loop, and the loop would have to extend outside the uniform magnetic field, otherwise the EMF from opposite sides of the loop would cancel out. Your claims of the Lorentz force not working are all based on your own misunderstandings of the Lorentz force and incorrect (strawman) claims that the Lorentz force only applies to constant velocity.

Perhaps you should provide an example of the above from academic sources as you claim that there are countless examples...
The original experiments were done in the 1800s. Straightforward demonstrations of it are classroom exercises, like the ones I have provided you. Anything else is application, and I have already listed basic applications.

By the way, what example in the video shows is Faraday's generator where there is physical brushing against conductive metal surface... With contact less electric field probes of modern oscilloscope the EMF is zero...
And there are no brush-less Faraday's generators...
More unsupported assertions. If friction with the brush caused anything (like a static charge from socks on carpet), the results in the video I provided would not have changed sign with the direction of spin of the disc.

Again, you have yet to give your so-called force law a form that results in consistent units. You can't solve anything with it without doing that. Also, you have not demonstrated using it for any practical application, doing numerical calculations would quickly result in you running into problems with the inconsistent units you are using.

It is trivial that your made up law cannot explain the fact that the motion in the first link I provided is approximately a circle. If there was any significant backwards acceleration as you claim (there isn't) in the experiment that implies the magnetic force is perpendicular to the direction of acceleration to get the loop started. After that though acceleration of the electrons is clearly a constant pointing to the center of the circle, so if that is being maintained by the magnetic field, suddenly your law has to change to force being parallel to the acceleration instead of perpendicular. Also to support the claim I just made that the acceleration is constant towards the center: that is true due to centripetal acceleration of v^2/r. Radius is obviously constant, and if the velocity was not constant, the the component of acceleration towards the center required to maintain constant radius would change non-linearly. This is not supported by the linear equation you wrote up.

Also, if there was significant acceleration back towards the exit of the electron gun, you would get a distorted shape, not a circle that ends up moving away from the electron gun at the end, further disproving your claim that the speed of the electrons was anything but constant.

That is 4 different issues with your claim from just 1 experiment
-units don't work
-direction of force relative to acceleration is undefined, and changes with time in this experiment
-force claimed by you is not consistent with experiment resulting in a nice circle.
-claims that the anode causes acceleration are not supported by the data

Someone else confirms Orman Force law which predicts when acceleration in motion of the charges is zero the EMF in wire will also be zero:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=5&v=XSWwrvT_c8w
The magnet is spinning around what is presumably its pole. This does not produce a changing magnetic flux through the loop of wire, so the net EMF for the whole loop is expected to be 0. The entire setup is backwards and inside out compared to a homopolar generator (which is what he calls his device). For the incorrect setup he built, the result he got is what is expected.
In the quote just above you said"This does not produce a changing magnetic flux through the loop of wire, so the net EMF for the whole loop is expected to be 0." Yes because it is uniform and NOT changing as claimed in Lorentz force model...
Yes, I expected that you would avoid providing an example of your own or from academic sources because you have no clue and there is none from academia...
Instantaneous velocity does not reflect instantaneous acceleration...
You said that my setup is incorrect but have no idea how "the" correct setup looks...
So, I will let you have the last answer...
« Last Edit: 01/17/2019 06:38 pm by MathewOrman »

Offline MathewOrman

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Re: The Electromagnetic Wave Electric Field Force Thruster
« Reply #104 on: 01/17/2019 06:05 pm »
Why no one can understand my design? It is so simple and with complete theoretical support.
Because it is not in the books :-)
« Last Edit: 01/17/2019 06:55 pm by MathewOrman »

Offline meberbs

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Re: The Electromagnetic Wave Electric Field Force Thruster
« Reply #105 on: 01/17/2019 06:20 pm »
Yes, I expected that you would avoid providing an example of your own or from academic sources because you have no clue and there is none from academia...
As I said, the original experiments were done over a hundred years ago, and it is not my responsibility to look them up for you.  I have given you modern experiments, and answered all of your objections to them. You ask for contradictory things like particles accelerating and not accelerating at the same time. As I have repeatedly suggested, you need to pick up a textbook on electrodynamics, because most of the claims you have made about what the Lorentz force says are simply not what electrodynamics actually predicts.

So, I will let you have the last answer...
Then I want you to actually give me some answers. You have simply ignored roughly 90% of what I have explained to you, and refuse to acknowledge the fundamental inconsistencies of your claims.

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