Countdown to new smallsat launchers

[Katana]

Most people seem to be confining their thinking to LEO. What could you put in Lunar orbit? Mars? Venus? Sun Synch? Solar? Can you turn a cubesat into an interplanetary probe? If you can do it its a market segment (probably not a very big market segment) and every launch helps.

A SEP upperstage tug for cubesat riding on big launchers could reach any orbit above, and challange the concept of "dedicated small launcher for dedicated orbit".

That's (potentially) an intriguing piece of enabling technology for cubesat payloads. IIRC 3U is about the biggest a cubesat gets. Obvious questions would be
1) Would the tug have to provide braking burns on the target orbit, and if so can it get back from the orbit multiple times?
2)Is the market big enough to justify it as a primary payload, or would the tug need to go as a secondary?
3) Since propellant load is critical for it to be useful (unless on orbit refueling is planned) if it had to go as a secondary could some kind of "LCROSS" architecture, using the whole PLA as the tugs structure, be an option?

If the tug itself is a Cubesat, it could go as a secondary and be disposable.
The next question: different sized tugs for different payload Cubesats? Or multi payload Cubesats per tug?
Or: talking about such details are too early before specify actual SEP technology.

[gongora]

Most people seem to be confining their thinking to LEO. What could you put in Lunar orbit? Mars? Venus? Sun Synch? Solar? Can you turn a cubesat into an interplanetary probe? If you can do it its a market segment (probably not a very big market segment) and every launch helps.

A SEP upperstage tug for cubesat riding on big launchers could reach any orbit above, and challange the concept of "dedicated small launcher for dedicated orbit".

Tugs/additional small upper stages in general (don't have to be SEP or on large launchers) give more functionality to the deployments.  The D-Orbit ION flying next year on Vega does that sort of thing (not sure what the propulsion system is?).  Rocket Lab has their small upper stage.  Doesn't ISRO also have something to deploy to multiple orbits?  If Spaceflight ever gets around to making the propulsive SHERPA it would also be in that niche, and MOOG advertises that capability already.  There have been similar things on military GEO launches.

[TrevorMonty]

Moon Express MX1, minus landing HW would be capable 3rd stage for small LV.

[Eric Hedman]

Interesting article by Jerry Roberts of Stofiel Aerospace on Fox News website:

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2018/08/18/evolution-space-travel-new-gold-rush-has-begun.html

Interesting paragraph:

"I joined the effort to reach space in 1959 when, right out of college, I was hired by McDonald Aircraft. Contracted by NASA to develop the means to get into space we didn’t have a working rocket and we didn’t have any idea how, or if, we could keep an astronaut alive."

[Zed_Noir]

Interesting article by Jerry Roberts of Stofiel Aerospace on Fox News website:

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2018/08/18/evolution-space-travel-new-gold-rush-has-begun.html

Interesting paragraph:

"I joined the effort to reach space in 1959 when, right out of college, I was hired by McDonald Aircraft. Contracted by NASA to develop the means to get into space we didn’t have a working rocket and we didn’t have any idea how, or if, we could keep an astronaut alive."

Sigh, Fox News couldn't get their facts straight. Think that is suppose to be McDonnell Aircraft. They were based out of St.Louis at that time.

[Katana]

Most people seem to be confining their thinking to LEO. What could you put in Lunar orbit? Mars? Venus? Sun Synch? Solar? Can you turn a cubesat into an interplanetary probe? If you can do it its a market segment (probably not a very big market segment) and every launch helps.

A SEP upperstage tug for cubesat riding on big launchers could reach any orbit above, and challange the concept of "dedicated small launcher for dedicated orbit".

Tugs/additional small upper stages in general (don't have to be SEP or on large launchers) give more functionality to the deployments.  The D-Orbit ION flying next year on Vega does that sort of thing (not sure what the propulsion system is?).  Rocket Lab has their small upper stage.  Doesn't ISRO also have something to deploy to multiple orbits?  If Spaceflight ever gets around to making the propulsive SHERPA it would also be in that niche, and MOOG advertises that capability already.  There have been similar things on military GEO launches.

Tugs are very useful, but recent chemical propulsion tugs are too big and dangerous to be accepted as Cubesat class rideshare payload.

[Eric Hedman]

Interesting article by Jerry Roberts of Stofiel Aerospace on Fox News website:

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2018/08/18/evolution-space-travel-new-gold-rush-has-begun.html

Interesting paragraph:

"I joined the effort to reach space in 1959 when, right out of college, I was hired by McDonald Aircraft. Contracted by NASA to develop the means to get into space we didn’t have a working rocket and we didn’t have any idea how, or if, we could keep an astronaut alive."

Sigh, Fox News couldn't get their facts straight. Think that is suppose to be McDonnell Aircraft. They were based out of St.Louis at that time.

Considering Jerry Roberts the writer of the article was referring to himself working there, I wonder who made the error.  My guess it was a copy editor who saw McDonnell Aircraft and thought it was spelled wrong and not the author, but who knows.  I'm not too sure many of these editors were even alive when McDonnell aircraft existed before their merger with Douglas Aircraft.  It just makes me feel old to think about it.

[john smith 19]

If the tug itself is a Cubesat, it could go as a secondary and be disposable.
The next question: different sized tugs for different payload Cubesats? Or multi payload Cubesats per tug?
Or: talking about such details are too early before specify actual SEP technology.

My instinct is the market isn't there (yet) for a cubesat tug as a primary, so probably a secondary.

At this scale I think only some kind of SEP can be pack enough fuel to deliver enough delta v to be flexibly useful for different orbits, and still come back.

Beyond that I don't know the SEP types well enough to choose a type. There is also the issue that a big cubesat tub (IE 3-6U) would be mostly pushing it's own mass, rather than that of a small (1U) cubesat to its target orbit (or escape).

[A_M_Swallow]

NASA has sponsored a couple of SEP thrusters for cubesats.

There is the RF Thruster made by Phase Four (based on the University of Michigan's CubeSat Ambipolar Thruster (CAT)).
Ref: http://www.phasefour.io

Busek Co. Inc. makes small Hall Effect thrusters suitable for cubesats and small probes.
Ref: http://www.busek.com

[jongoff]

Most people seem to be confining their thinking to LEO. What could you put in Lunar orbit? Mars? Venus? Sun Synch? Solar? Can you turn a cubesat into an interplanetary probe? If you can do it its a market segment (probably not a very big market segment) and every launch helps.

A SEP upperstage tug for cubesat riding on big launchers could reach any orbit above, and challange the concept of "dedicated small launcher for dedicated orbit".

Refueling the dedicated launch upper stage in LEO also allows you to do the same thing, but a lot faster... We're presenting a paper looking at some of the orbital dynamics implications of dedicated deep space smallsat missions using refueled upper stages at a conference on Wednesday.

~Jon

[A_M_Swallow]

Most people seem to be confining their thinking to LEO. What could you put in Lunar orbit? Mars? Venus? Sun Synch? Solar? Can you turn a cubesat into an interplanetary probe? If you can do it its a market segment (probably not a very big market segment) and every launch helps.

A SEP upperstage tug for cubesat riding on big launchers could reach any orbit above, and challange the concept of "dedicated small launcher for dedicated orbit".

Refueling the dedicated launch upper stage in LEO also allows you to do the same thing, but a lot faster... We're presenting a paper looking at some of the orbital dynamics implications of dedicated deep space smallsat missions using refueled upper stages at a conference on Wednesday.

~Jon

Good ideal.

Limit to the idea. A refuelled upper stage can move a large satellite but would be over-kill for a cubesat particularly if there are 5 or 6 cubesats wanting different orbits.

[gongora]

Tweet from C. G. Niederstrasser:

Did you know that @SmallSat makes their conference proceedings available online for *free*? 
#smallsat
Copies of my #SmallLVSurvey paper can be found at:
https://digitalcommons.usu.edu/smallsat/2018/TPS09-2018/

I couldn’t find Relativity Space in the document. I thought that was odd considering they appear to have a solid plan, funding and engagement with NASA with their use of Stennis facilities.

I just noticed that the survey only includes vehicles with maximum claimed payload to LEO of 1000kg or less, and Terran 1 is listed at 1250kg to 185-km orbit on the Relativity site.

[Markstark]

Tweet from C. G. Niederstrasser:

Did you know that @SmallSat makes their conference proceedings available online for *free*? 
#smallsat
Copies of my #SmallLVSurvey paper can be found at:
https://digitalcommons.usu.edu/smallsat/2018/TPS09-2018/

I couldn’t find Relativity Space in the document. I thought that was odd considering they appear to have a solid plan, funding and engagement with NASA with their use of Stennis facilities.

I just noticed that the survey only includes vehicles with maximum claimed payload to LEO of 1000kg or less, and Terran 1 is listed at 1250kg to 185-km orbit on the Relativity site.

Good point! Reading is fundamental. My bad.

[Kosmos2001]

From: https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=46624.0 add a new one: https://equatorialspace.com/

Soon we'll have more launchers than satellites. 

Btw, why don't they type a space between the value and the unit?

[gongora]

This article is a good roundup of the Chinese launchers under development:
https://gbtimes.com/one-of-the-chinese-launch-startups-you-havent-heard-of-just-tested-a-rocket-engine

[gongora]

https://www.esa.int/Our_Activities/Space_Transportation/Microlaunchers_new_ways_to_access_space

Some info on the current European small launchers under development

[TrevorMonty]

https://www.esa.int/Our_Activities/Space_Transportation/Microlaunchers_new_ways_to_access_space

Some info on the current European small launchers under development

While europe is studying small LVs, the competition is building and launching them. By end of 2019 Vector, RL and  Virgin will be launching regularly covering 60-500kg market. Firefly and Relativity should become operational by 2021 with 1000-1250 class launchers.

Current launch cost for the first three is about $20-30k per kg. More if rideshare and probably lot less if buy bulk launchers.

The 1000kg LVs are about $10k per kg.

All these prices will have good margins in them to help recover high setup costs. Expect them to drop as competition hots up and production costs fall.

[Mardlamock]

https://www.esa.int/Our_Activities/Space_Transportation/Microlaunchers_new_ways_to_access_space

Some info on the current European small launchers under development

While europe is studying small LVs, the competition is building and launching them. By end of 2019 Vector, RL and  Virgin will be launching regularly covering 60-500kg market. Firefly and Relativity should become operational by 2021 with 1000-1250 class launchers.

Current launch cost for the first three is about $20-30k per kg. More if rideshare and probably lot less if buy bulk launchers.

The 1000kg LVs are about $10k per kg.

All these prices will have good margins in them to help recover high setup costs. Expect them to drop as competition hots up and production costs fall.

None of those even have a semblance of hitting the right metrics and value for the commercial sector. It's like they are 8 years behind the states at this point. Has Europe always been this tame?

[ringsider]

While europe is studying small LVs, the competition is building and launching them.

I'm not sure how you got to that conclusion.

I just downloaded those slides and  PLD Space is showing quite serious test facilities (compare the PLD test site to Vector's and Rocket Lab's setup, that is quite a big investment), a big pile of employees and plans a suborbital launch next year.

Another, Orbex Psace, is showing large factories, engines, tanks, electronics, GNC, launch sites and - apparently - customer contracts.

That goes quite some way beyond "studying". You could make the case PLD is at a slightly advanced level to Vector to be honest. Orbex Space I am not so sure about; they tend to be quite secretive, in fact this is the first slide deck I saw from them so far, so it is hard to judge. But they show a lot of hardware and facilities for a company "studying" the market.

By end of 2019 Vector, RL and  Virgin will be launching regularly covering 60-500kg market.

RL: yes I agree, for smaller payload market.
 
Virgin: Maybe, still some things to prove but overall good progress. Grudging respect for Virgin.

Vector: not a chance in hell they are launching regularly to orbit next year. If they get above the Karmann line suborbital they will announce it like it is the first man on the moon.

Firefly and Relativity should become operational by 2021 with 1000-1250 class launchers.

Firefly: Maybe.

Relativity: Not a chance.

And you forgot SpinLaunch who will make everybody obsolete, right?

[TrevorMonty]

I hope Spinlaunch are succesful but have my doubts it will work for earth to leo launches . As mass launcher for moon I think it has great potential. 0-1.8kms in vacuum is lot easier than 0-9.8 in atmosphere.