Countdown to new smallsat launchers

[Robotbeat]

But if you're building a new rocket with new engines, you ARE essentially reinventing the wheel already. So you might as well try do do a better job. And the flip side of "don't reinvent the wheel" is, if you're not doing anything different, how the heck do you propose to outcompete everyone else?

What a very good question.

And the common incentive of failed exotic rockets before SpaceX ?

SpaceX is interesting because they intentionally did pick a very basic rocket design. Kerolox, gas generator, aluminum alloy tanks, two stage, upper stage just a simple pressure fed kerolox engine. Then for F9, all they did is gang up a bunch of the first stage engines in a non-optimized grid pattern.

Their plan was just to try parachute recovery. Everything super basic. They didn't get the idea for VTVL reuse until 2010, after parachute recovery didn't work on F1 or F9. Basically, the first flight of Falcon 9.

Their plan worked because they were competing against stodgy domestic aerospace companies, and they were able to simply execute (speaking of development, not operations until v1.1 was flying). What this allowed them to do was to take the simplest approach to reuse that still actually worked in real life. By getting something that worked operational, they were then able to iterate and try things until their fancy tech, VTVL, worked. And it took like a dozen tries (if you include parachute attempts).

If you can get ANYTHING to orbit, you're already ahead of 90% of the field. But I suspect that will change this year and next.

RocketLab, Virgin, Vector, and possibly Masten all have a shot at orbit. Of the four, Masten has the biggest upshot if they're able to achieve orbit since they have the best reuse technology of anyone.

But maybe the moral of SpaceX's story is to achieve orbit with an operationally suboptimal design first and be rich enough that you maintain control of the company to try much better, ground-breaking ideas later.

[baldusi]

But if you're building a new rocket with new engines, you ARE essentially reinventing the wheel already. So you might as well try do do a better job. And the flip side of "don't reinvent the wheel" is, if you're not doing anything different, how the heck do you propose to outcompete everyone else?

You innovate on business model, processes and procurement approach?

[Robotbeat]

I call that "execution."

[TrevorMonty]

But if you're building a new rocket with new engines, you ARE essentially reinventing the wheel already. So you might as well try do do a better job. And the flip side of "don't reinvent the wheel" is, if you're not doing anything different, how the heck do you propose to outcompete everyone else?

You innovate on business model, processes and procurement approach?

RL are trying few new technologies, fully 3D printed engines, electric turbopumps, composite tanks and stages. Automated manufacturing of tanks, not yet implemented as far as I know. Privately owned launch pad without launch restraints of government pads.
Online booking of payload slots for cubesats.

VG are using 3D printed engines, composite tanks and stages. Automated manufacturing of tanks? Air launched with all its advantages.

At this stage both companies are trying to get cost of expendable LV low as possible. Achieve that with regular high launch and they will be in position to look at reusability.

[ringsider]

VG are using 3D printed engines

I didn't know that, but that's really interesting. Those are quite big engines, are you sure they are printed?

[TrevorMonty]

VG are using 3D printed engines

I didn't know that, but that's really interesting. Those are quite big engines, are you sure they are printed?

I thought they were but not sure. Would be surprised if they didn't have high content of 3D printed parts.

[imprezive]

VG are using 3D printed engines

I didn't know that, but that's really interesting. Those are quite big engines, are you sure they are printed?

I thought they were but not sure. Would be surprised if they didn't have high content of 3D printed parts.

They are.

I asked Whitesides about Virgin Galactic’s partnership with DMG MORI, a leading producer of machine tools who have developed a hybrid 3D printer that combines subtractive techniques, such as milling, with additive deposition via blown powder. “We’re a big believer in additive manufacturing, particularly in engine production,” he tells me.

We’re very proud to be working with DMG MORI. They have now produced what is called an additive and subtractive machine; it can form metal shapes [using an additive technique] and then change tools to take material out. [This process is often referred to as hybrid manufacturing] and that’s a very important thing because the [geometric] forms you get with additive metal manufacturing are not possible with a subtractive tool.

The CEO says Virgin Galactic’s “goal is to reduce the amount of time it takes to produce our engines from many months down to eventually weeks.” 3D printing will play an important role in this allowing them, “to essentially close the door on the machine we’ve purchased from DMG MORI and 2 or 3 weeks later open it and the engine comes out.”

https://3dprintingindustry.com/news/4-enterprises-not-spacex-using-3d-printing-reach-space-96578/

[Jim]

Solids are simpler and require less testing even when build in house. Its rather strange that most new emerging small launcher projects leaps to liquids, not solids.

Handeling of AP oxidizer is simpler than Peroxide, while regulation issue is only slightly more difficult.

Not true on either statement

[Toast]

Handeling of AP oxidizer is simpler than Peroxide, while regulation issue is only slightly more difficult.

Not true on either statement

And when it goes wrong, it can really go wrong.

[Robotbeat]

Handeling of AP oxidizer is simpler than Peroxide, while regulation issue is only slightly more difficult.

Not true on either statement

And when it goes wrong, it can really go wrong.

The video is impressive:

One of the largest non-nuclear explosions.

[Archibald]

Because of STS-51L PEPCON had SRB propellant stored all over the place in crappy containments. No surprise the plant erupted.

[CameronD]

At a forum held last night by Engineers Australia in Melbourne, amongst many other things it was reported that:

1. Australia has turned down offers to partner with ESA (on a similar level to other member states like Canada) on at least three occasions... mainly out of ignorance.

2. The present Australian government is "receptive" to reviewing and (hopefully!) repealing the Space Act Agreement and there are discussions going on right now!

Maybe 2017 will be a good year after all.

[Proponent]

The present Australian government is "receptive" to reviewing and (hopefully!) repealing the Space Act Agreement....!

What is the Space Act Agreement?

[high road]

The present Australian government is "receptive" to reviewing and (hopefully!) repealing the Space Act Agreement....!

What is the Space Act Agreement?

I think he means the Space Activities Act (correct me if I'm wrong), which biggest flaw is that it predates the cubesat and small launch vehicle revolution.
http://tinyurl.com/h2vddhq

[CameronD]

The present Australian government is "receptive" to reviewing and (hopefully!) repealing the Space Act Agreement....!

What is the Space Act Agreement?

I think he means the Space Activities Act (correct me if I'm wrong), which biggest flaw is that it predates the cubesat and small launch vehicle revolution.
http://tinyurl.com/h2vddhq

Yep, that's the one.  I was sitting at the back of the room and got the gist of what he was saying, but must have mis-heard the actual title.

[savuporo]

I think he means the Space Activities Act (correct me if I'm wrong), which biggest flaw is that it predates the cubesat and small launch vehicle revolution.

Smallsats revolution is clearly happening, but this thread here is tracking the rapid non-happening of small launch vehicle revolution.

Should post another snapshot table, with no launches clocked, except for recent ss-520 that wasn't even posted here

[CameronD]

FWIW, Gilmour Space Technologies have a stand at the Avalon Airshow (Hall 2 Stand F24) all this week.  I walked past yesterday on the way to a meeting (work takes priority) but they were busy talking to other folks and by the time I got back (after 5pm) they'd closed shop for the day and headed for the beer tent.

If anyone else is going to the Airshow, perhaps they can report back here on how they're going?


EDIT:  The F-22 Raptor display was really cool to watch and the pilots great to talk to (gotta love that Yankee drawl).. but that's a subject for a different forum.

[Galactic Penguin SST]

FWIW, Gilmour Space Technologies have a stand at the Avalon Airshow (Hall 2 Stand F24) all this week.  I walked past yesterday on the way to a meeting (work takes priority) but they were busy talking to other folks and by the time I got back (after 5pm) they'd closed shop for the day and headed for the beer tent.

If anyone else is going to the Airshow, perhaps they can report back here on how they're going?


EDIT:  The F-22 Raptor display was really cool to watch and the pilots great to talk to (gotta love that Yankee drawl).. but that's a subject for a different forum.

FWIW if someone's in Down Under maybe the Chinese institutions are worth a look too - I know that CALT has a booth at the Avalon Airshow and their Long March 11 would fit in nicely in this thread (already flight proven twice too).

[CameronD]

FWIW, Gilmour Space Technologies have a stand at the Avalon Airshow (Hall 2 Stand F24) all this week.  I walked past yesterday on the way to a meeting (work takes priority) but they were busy talking to other folks and by the time I got back (after 5pm) they'd closed shop for the day and headed for the beer tent.

If anyone else is going to the Airshow, perhaps they can report back here on how they're going?


EDIT:  The F-22 Raptor display was really cool to watch and the pilots great to talk to (gotta love that Yankee drawl).. but that's a subject for a different forum.

FWIW if someone's in Down Under maybe the Chinese institutions are worth a look too - I know that CALT has a booth at the Avalon Airshow and their Long March 11 would fit in nicely in this thread (already flight proven twice too).

Hall 1 Stand D11.  Good pickup!  Amongst all the other missiles scattered around the place it never occurred to me to look for them and I won't be back again either, so it's someone else's turn now.

[savuporo]

We are almost thru Q3 2017 and no launches.

Vector is promising a suborbital test launch of what appears to be re-done Garvey P19 https://twitter.com/jamesncantrell/status/840427975585669120

RocketLabs was supposed to launch early January or Feb and has gone veeewy quiet. Millirons at Interorbital are always almost ready to launch next month.