Author Topic: EM Drive Developments - related to space flight applications - Thread 5  (Read 973066 times)

Offline zen-in

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...

Doesn't anyone here have any reply at all to the substance of this paper?  Just throwing out insults without providing any justification for the insults isn't very persuasive.

There was a lot of discussion on earlier threads about the accuracy of the NASA labs correction for the magnetic damper induced force.  The conclusion, I think was that we didn't have enough information on their experimental methods to be able to quantify this inaccuracy.   The authors of this paper have done a very good job looking into this, despite being hampered by the same lack of inside information.  Their experimental method is good and the paper is very well written.   This is just the sort of experimentation people should be doing.   Too bad we have to be taught this by high school students.  har har 

When NASA started testing in a vacuum they reduced the error thrust due to magnetic effects a lot.   Sadly the anomalous force was also reduced a lot.  That was when everything started looking like a thermal effect instead.

Offline rfmwguy

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Attached is a paper just released by reddit user potomac_neuron who suggests emdrive effects are lorentz force induced. A video of the torsion balance test stand is included.



Nope.  John Baez has some incredibly powerful critiques.   This barely makes the chinese fortune cookie level.

There are many very good reasons to claim EM drives can't work.   

There are probably MORE good reasons to claim this group should never be admitted to high school.

On the otherhand, they could be commended for taking a swat at this.

IMHO.  And I'm being nice.   Sorry.

Can't wait to see CK's comments on Reddit.  He was all over this paper chomping for a chance to read it.  I see dry heaves in his future.
Nice compass? Sorry I'm sure he tried, no bad data.
As my memory fades, I recall studying the Lorentz force with DC power supply wires months ago and followed the discussions here on NSF. You are right shell, this is a compass which tries to align with the earth's poles and presents a VERY small force, as they reported a dozen or so micronewtons.

Whether or not this past discussion contributed to my decision to do vertical, not horizontal (torsion or rotary) testing, I can't honestly say, but whatever the current turns out to be, it should be included in rotary/torsion error calculations. I even took the time to twist my DC supply wires together so as not to present a straight path (even though I am not using torsion/rotary - a horizontal lorentz force would be overcome by the 2 knife edge balance points anyway).

I too commend them for taking a swipe at it WITH THEIR HANDS, not just their mouths, as so many want to do. Their next step should be to evaluate this setup with a balance beam/vertical setup in all compass directions IMO.
« Last Edit: 10/28/2015 12:35 PM by rfmwguy »

Offline rfmwguy

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OK, so Potomac Neuron wrote me back at reddit and I'm having trouble digesting this visual. Perhaps someone here can. He said that the lorentz force will have a vertical component, like a Compass Needle mounted vertically.

I'm at a bit of a duh moment I cannot visualize. Anything to this?

Online SeeShells

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OK, so Potomac Neuron wrote me back at reddit and I'm having trouble digesting this visual. Perhaps someone here can. He said that the lorentz force will have a vertical component, like a Compass Needle mounted vertically.

I'm at a bit of a duh moment I cannot visualize. Anything to this?
I think before they can publish an effective paper they need to exclude any other magnetic fields. Low cost to do so.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mumetal-Nikel-Permalloy-Magnetic-shielding-foil-Sheet-Mu-metal-0-1T-30-45cm-/171173026902?hash=item27dab51c56:m:mgbC7M_nDkiqkt7vr_R66rQ

Added: Look at the data sets they provided to see how it can cancel out other fields....
« Last Edit: 10/28/2015 04:52 PM by SeeShells »

Offline glennfish

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OK, so Potomac Neuron wrote me back at reddit and I'm having trouble digesting this visual. Perhaps someone here can. He said that the lorentz force will have a vertical component, like a Compass Needle mounted vertically.

I'm at a bit of a duh moment I cannot visualize. Anything to this?


visual


Offline not_a_physicist

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OK, so Potomac Neuron wrote me back at reddit and I'm having trouble digesting this visual. Perhaps someone here can. He said that the lorentz force will have a vertical component, like a Compass Needle mounted vertically.

I'm at a bit of a duh moment I cannot visualize. Anything to this?
I think it is this: If you have a compass on its side such that N points towards the sky and W points north, then it will rotate itself such that N points north and W points towards the ground. That rotation is on the axis that could make a balance beam tilt, so we would describe the force it's producing as having a vertical component.
« Last Edit: 10/28/2015 05:28 PM by not_a_physicist »

Offline rfmwguy

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OK, so Potomac Neuron wrote me back at reddit and I'm having trouble digesting this visual. Perhaps someone here can. He said that the lorentz force will have a vertical component, like a Compass Needle mounted vertically.

I'm at a bit of a duh moment I cannot visualize. Anything to this?


visual


I must be having a bad day Uncle Glenn...the F force is perpendicular to the current carrying wire. So I am also assuming this is also perpendicular to the earth's magnetic field, or pointing up? If so, this would be lift?

Trying to understand why the F force is shown as up in this right-hand rule pic.

Online SeeShells

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OK, so Potomac Neuron wrote me back at reddit and I'm having trouble digesting this visual. Perhaps someone here can. He said that the lorentz force will have a vertical component, like a Compass Needle mounted vertically.

I'm at a bit of a duh moment I cannot visualize. Anything to this?
I think it is this: If you have a compass on its side such that N points towards the sky and W points north, then it will rotate itself such that N points north and W points towards the ground. That rotation is on the axis that could make a balance beam tilt, so we would describe the force it's producing as having a vertical component.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth%27s_magnetic_field#/media/File:Geodynamo_Between_Reversals.gif
The earths field isn't as simple as a bar magnet with a piece of paper over it and iron fillings scattered on it.
Shell
« Last Edit: 10/28/2015 06:23 PM by SeeShells »

Offline rfmwguy

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OK, so Potomac Neuron wrote me back at reddit and I'm having trouble digesting this visual. Perhaps someone here can. He said that the lorentz force will have a vertical component, like a Compass Needle mounted vertically.

I'm at a bit of a duh moment I cannot visualize. Anything to this?
I think it is this: If you have a compass on its side such that N points towards the sky and W points north, then it will rotate itself such that N points north and W points towards the ground. That rotation is on the axis that could make a balance beam tilt, so we would describe the force it's producing as having a vertical component.
Hmmm, trying to visualize if the vertical component is up or down. In my test setup, the frustum was on the east end of an east-west balance beam. The twisted supply wires extended from midpoint to the frustum, about 3.5 feet total. This would give an upwards force?

Offline LasJayhawk

OK, so Potomac Neuron wrote me back at reddit and I'm having trouble digesting this visual. Perhaps someone here can. He said that the lorentz force will have a vertical component, like a Compass Needle mounted vertically.

I'm at a bit of a duh moment I cannot visualize. Anything to this?
I think it is this: If you have a compass on its side such that N points towards the sky and W points north, then it will rotate itself such that N points north and W points towards the ground. That rotation is on the axis that could make a balance beam tilt, so we would describe the force it's producing as having a vertical component.

The earths field isn't as simple as a bar magnet with a piece of paper over it and iron fillings scattered on it.
Shell

Gravity is dependent on location as well. I wonder if there is any relationship between thrust and the local magnetic field or gravity?

Offline rfmwguy

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OK, so Potomac Neuron wrote me back at reddit and I'm having trouble digesting this visual. Perhaps someone here can. He said that the lorentz force will have a vertical component, like a Compass Needle mounted vertically.

I'm at a bit of a duh moment I cannot visualize. Anything to this?
I think it is this: If you have a compass on its side such that N points towards the sky and W points north, then it will rotate itself such that N points north and W points towards the ground. That rotation is on the axis that could make a balance beam tilt, so we would describe the force it's producing as having a vertical component.

The earths field isn't as simple as a bar magnet with a piece of paper over it and iron fillings scattered on it.
Shell
Guess I picked the wrong week to stop sniffing glue (Airplane 1980) but what gives a vertical force to a common compass, which I can only imagine as a horizontal force? Help me shell...  :o
« Last Edit: 10/28/2015 06:05 PM by rfmwguy »

Offline rfmwguy

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OK, so Potomac Neuron wrote me back at reddit and I'm having trouble digesting this visual. Perhaps someone here can. He said that the lorentz force will have a vertical component, like a Compass Needle mounted vertically.

I'm at a bit of a duh moment I cannot visualize. Anything to this?
I think it is this: If you have a compass on its side such that N points towards the sky and W points north, then it will rotate itself such that N points north and W points towards the ground. That rotation is on the axis that could make a balance beam tilt, so we would describe the force it's producing as having a vertical component.

The earths field isn't as simple as a bar magnet with a piece of paper over it and iron fillings scattered on it.
Shell

Gravity is dependent on location as well. I wonder if there is any relationship between thrust and the local magnetic field or gravity?
Its where I'm having trouble as well. Gravity is a non-polarized vertical force, perpendicular to magnetic lines of force. Any vertical component of magnetism makes no sense to me without a gravity interaction.

Offline Corlock Striker

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Its where I'm having trouble as well. Gravity is a non-polarized vertical force, perpendicular to magnetic lines of force. Any vertical component of magnetism makes no sense to me without a gravity interaction.

This is only my second post in this discussion, but I'll see if maybe I can help you visual this.  Remember that they're called electromagnetic fields.  The magnetic field given off by a standard magnet does not exist in a two dimensional plane.  It is easy to think of it in that manner, but in reality it emanates in all directions from the north and south poles of the magnet, forming essentially two spheres that meet in the middle of the magnet.  After all, the magnet exists in three dimensional space and it exerts its magnetic force equally in all directions around both its poles.

Let's say we have two rectangular prism shaped magnets.  The south pole of one is placed near the north pole of the other.  No matter what direction the first magnet approaches from, it is attracted to the second magnet.  This is because both magnets are generating their magnet fields in all directions of three dimensional space and not only within a two dimensional plane.

The Earth's magnetic field is all around us and also occupies three dimensional space.  However, we tend to think of the Earth as being more two dimensional because we see such a small portion of its spherical surface that it appears flat, even though we know this not to be the case.  The only time we really think about the Earth's magnetic field is when we make use of a compass, however, the motion of any compass we use is constrained to a two-dimensional plane, this reinforces the notion of the two dimensionality of the Earth's magnetic field.  In reality, the North pole isn't only North of you, in the direction a compass points though, at least not it terms of its location relative to you in three dimensional space.  Think about your position relative to the north pole in terms of an x, y vector that travels through the earth's center, and I think you'll understand why there could potentially be a vertical component to this lorentz force.

On a related note, I've been following the discussion since the third discussion thread, through I completely missed the fourth one.  It's really quite fascinating.  I'm just finishing up a degree in Industrial Design myself, so I can't claim to be any sort of Engineer or anything like that, but I am good with 3D design software, though most of my student liscenses are just about to run out and I'm fairly good at prototyping.  I also have some experience with 3D printing.  I've also pre-ordered a Peachy Printer, which is a really cool $100 3D Printer.

It floats liquid resin on top of salt water and cures it with a laser.  The cool thing about it is that the build area can be customized.  The developers have finished with the testing phases and are starting to ramp up production.  They're going to start shipping out in December, so I'll be getting mine sometime around then, at the earliest.  Given that I can print any build size I want with the Peachy Printer, I might be able to print some Hermetically sealed chambers for some of the DIYers on the site.  Of course, that all is months away at this point, but just thought I'd offer my services.  Of course, people could also order a Peachy Printer for themselves, seeing as how it's only $100, and then print up a chamber on their own.

Online SeeShells

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OK, so Potomac Neuron wrote me back at reddit and I'm having trouble digesting this visual. Perhaps someone here can. He said that the lorentz force will have a vertical component, like a Compass Needle mounted vertically.

I'm at a bit of a duh moment I cannot visualize. Anything to this?
I think it is this: If you have a compass on its side such that N points towards the sky and W points north, then it will rotate itself such that N points north and W points towards the ground. That rotation is on the axis that could make a balance beam tilt, so we would describe the force it's producing as having a vertical component.

The earths field isn't as simple as a bar magnet with a piece of paper over it and iron fillings scattered on it.
Shell
Guess I picked the wrong week to stop sniffing glue (Airplane 1980) but what gives a vertical force to a common compass, which I can only imagine as a horizontal force? Help me shell...  :o
The field for all intents slices parallel to the surface of the earth N>S. If you pointed a compass point to the sky (up) and released it it would want to move and position itself to point north and south in a horizontal plane to the earth.  If your at the North Pole it becomes different and you have a vertical component.

Not sure where he is getting a vertical force from.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lorentz_force
In real materials the Lorentz force is inadequate to describe the behavior of charged particles, both in principle and as a matter of computation. The charged particles in a material medium both respond to the E and B fields and generate these fields. Complex transport equations must be solved to determine the time and spatial response of charges, for example, the Boltzmann equation or the Fokker–Planck equation or the Navier–Stokes equations.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lorentz_force#/media/File:Charged-particle-drifts.svg


Offline SlightPace

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Resonance does create more heat than no resonance though.  This is very well known and nothing new; it has to do with impedance, power factor, etc.  The short of it is that in the real world, all resonant systems will reach a maximum stored energy where they dissipate energy at the same rate they take energy in, because no system is perfectly resonant in the sense of zero losses.  At resonance, more energy is delivered to the system than if it were off resonance.  Hence more power is dissipated and therefore the system gets hotter.   

So unfortunately, characterizing thermal lift by screwing around with resonance won't work, because thermal lift is itself intimately tied in with resonance.  Change resonance, change thermal lift.   

How much energy can you store in copper frustum of this size with reasonable Q? And how quickly will it reach steady-state? I'm sure when the system is loaded, the heat produced would be the same in resonating and non-resonating cavity, considering the same power is injected.
I don't see how the system would get hotter in resonance assuming the measurement period is long enough.

Offline not_a_physicist

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OK, so Potomac Neuron wrote me back at reddit and I'm having trouble digesting this visual. Perhaps someone here can. He said that the lorentz force will have a vertical component, like a Compass Needle mounted vertically.

I'm at a bit of a duh moment I cannot visualize. Anything to this?
I think it is this: If you have a compass on its side such that N points towards the sky and W points north, then it will rotate itself such that N points north and W points towards the ground. That rotation is on the axis that could make a balance beam tilt, so we would describe the force it's producing as having a vertical component.
Hmmm, trying to visualize if the vertical component is up or down. In my test setup, the frustum was on the east end of an east-west balance beam. The twisted supply wires extended from midpoint to the frustum, about 3.5 feet total. This would give an upwards force?
I'm not qualified to do anything besides wiggle the compass on my desk around and tell you what it does, but for what it's worth I don't see how an east-west balance beam would be pushed up or down either.

Offline rfmwguy

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OK, so Potomac Neuron wrote me back at reddit and I'm having trouble digesting this visual. Perhaps someone here can. He said that the lorentz force will have a vertical component, like a Compass Needle mounted vertically.

I'm at a bit of a duh moment I cannot visualize. Anything to this?
I think it is this: If you have a compass on its side such that N points towards the sky and W points north, then it will rotate itself such that N points north and W points towards the ground. That rotation is on the axis that could make a balance beam tilt, so we would describe the force it's producing as having a vertical component.

The earths field isn't as simple as a bar magnet with a piece of paper over it and iron fillings scattered on it.
Shell
Guess I picked the wrong week to stop sniffing glue (Airplane 1980) but what gives a vertical force to a common compass, which I can only imagine as a horizontal force? Help me shell...  :o
The field for all intents slices parallel to the surface of the earth N>S. If you pointed a compass point to the sky (up) and released it it would want to move and position itself to point north and south in a horizontal plane to the earth.  If your at the North Pole it becomes different and you have a vertical component.

Not sure where he is getting a vertical force from.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lorentz_force
In real materials the Lorentz force is inadequate to describe the behavior of charged particles, both in principle and as a matter of computation. The charged particles in a material medium both respond to the E and B fields and generate these fields. Complex transport equations must be solved to determine the time and spatial response of charges, for example, the Boltzmann equation or the Fokker–Planck equation or the Navier–Stokes equations.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lorentz_force#/media/File:Charged-particle-drifts.svg
I can't either...just thought it was my bad. So a vertical run of power supply wires could only have a horizontal force component. This was my assumption from day one.

Offline rfmwguy

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OK, so Potomac Neuron wrote me back at reddit and I'm having trouble digesting this visual. Perhaps someone here can. He said that the lorentz force will have a vertical component, like a Compass Needle mounted vertically.

I'm at a bit of a duh moment I cannot visualize. Anything to this?
I think it is this: If you have a compass on its side such that N points towards the sky and W points north, then it will rotate itself such that N points north and W points towards the ground. That rotation is on the axis that could make a balance beam tilt, so we would describe the force it's producing as having a vertical component.
Hmmm, trying to visualize if the vertical component is up or down. In my test setup, the frustum was on the east end of an east-west balance beam. The twisted supply wires extended from midpoint to the frustum, about 3.5 feet total. This would give an upwards force?
I'm not qualified to do anything besides wiggle the compass on my desk around and tell you what it does, but for what it's worth I don't see how an east-west balance beam would be pushed up or down either.
I think you are correct and the only thing I can think of is he was referring to vertical supply wires, not horizontal supply wires like mine is.

Thanks to you and shell, I'm going to continue to believe a Lorentz force with horizontal wiring and vertical deflection has close to near Zero Lorentz force applied.

Offline rfmwguy

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Its where I'm having trouble as well. Gravity is a non-polarized vertical force, perpendicular to magnetic lines of force. Any vertical component of magnetism makes no sense to me without a gravity interaction.

This is only my second post in this discussion, but I'll see if maybe I can help you visual this.  Remember that they're called electromagnetic fields.  The magnetic field given off by a standard magnet does not exist in a two dimensional plane.  It is easy to think of it in that manner, but in reality it emanates in all directions from the north and south poles of the magnet, forming essentially two spheres that meet in the middle of the magnet.  After all, the magnet exists in three dimensional space and it exerts its magnetic force equally in all directions around both its poles.

Let's say we have two rectangular prism shaped magnets.  The south pole of one is placed near the north pole of the other.  No matter what direction the first magnet approaches from, it is attracted to the second magnet.  This is because both magnets are generating their magnet fields in all directions of three dimensional space and not only within a two dimensional plane.

The Earth's magnetic field is all around us and also occupies three dimensional space.  However, we tend to think of the Earth as being more two dimensional because we see such a small portion of its spherical surface that it appears flat, even though we know this not to be the case.  The only time we really think about the Earth's magnetic field is when we make use of a compass, however, the motion of any compass we use is constrained to a two-dimensional plane, this reinforces the notion of the two dimensionality of the Earth's magnetic field.  In reality, the North pole isn't only North of you, in the direction a compass points though, at least not it terms of its location relative to you in three dimensional space.  Think about your position relative to the north pole in terms of an x, y vector that travels through the earth's center, and I think you'll understand why there could potentially be a vertical component to this lorentz force.

On a related note, I've been following the discussion since the third discussion thread, through I completely missed the fourth one.  It's really quite fascinating.  I'm just finishing up a degree in Industrial Design myself, so I can't claim to be any sort of Engineer or anything like that, but I am good with 3D design software, though most of my student liscenses are just about to run out and I'm fairly good at prototyping.  I also have some experience with 3D printing.  I've also pre-ordered a Peachy Printer, which is a really cool $100 3D Printer.

It floats liquid resin on top of salt water and cures it with a laser.  The cool thing about it is that the build area can be customized.  The developers have finished with the testing phases and are starting to ramp up production.  They're going to start shipping out in December, so I'll be getting mine sometime around then, at the earliest.  Given that I can print any build size I want with the Peachy Printer, I might be able to print some Hermetically sealed chambers for some of the DIYers on the site.  Of course, that all is months away at this point, but just thought I'd offer my services.  Of course, people could also order a Peachy Printer for themselves, seeing as how it's only $100, and then print up a chamber on their own.
Welcome to your 2nd post! Think I've gotten the Lorentz force issue put to bed. Regarding modeling, I have a thought for you. The Frustums vary a bit is size, by mine is 10.2 inches height by 11.01 large diameter and 6.25 small diameter. Is your system capable of this?

Offline meberbs

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Let me try to clarify the Lorentz force since there is a lot of confusion.

The Lorentz force is in a direction mutually perpendicular to the Magnetic field and the velocity of Electric charges. (There is a vector cross product of velocity and magnetic field in the force equation).

This means that an east-west current carrying wire in a region of the earth with horizontal magnetic field will experience a purely vertical force.

Also, don't think about how a compass behaves when talking about the Lorentz force. The Lorentz force is a description of the force on a moving electric charge in a magnetic field. A compass is a magnetic dipole, which you treat differently. (I don't want to detail that here since it would probably add to the confusion, but here is the Wikipedia description of the force on a magnet in a magnetic field.)


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