Author Topic: EM Drive Developments - related to space flight applications - Thread 5  (Read 939576 times)

Offline TheTraveller


Uhhh, am I delusional?

IMHO yes, that is delusional.   :)

I think the issue is veritcal vs. horizontal.  If you know you will have veritical lift, then measure horizontally, i.e. rotational.  Put a nice vertical stopper so anything up or down doesn't get measured.  Get one of those gizmos that allows a 180 degree flip so you go clockwise or counter clockwise by flipping the whole gizmo on demand.  Not sure what that means in an actual implementation, but if you can flip 180 degrees and measure something horizontally, all the hot air balloon arguments go away, or at least, should go away.

IMHO

Eagleworks mount their EMDrive horizontally, flip it 180 deg and use a dummy load (gens the same heat load as their EMDrive) to eliminate thermal, EMC and H/E Force effects.

Despite doing all that, those with too much invested in the data being bad, continue to claim thermal or out gassing effects are responsible.

In reality you only need to look at the very rapid rise and fall times to know the measured Force is not a thermal or out gassing effect.

The 1st image is what you see when running at resonance. Rapid rise and fall times as the Rf is switched On and Off.

The 2nd image is what you get when off resonance and thermal effects dominate.

See any difference?
« Last Edit: 10/12/2015 11:56 PM by TheTraveller »
It Is Time For The EmDrive To Come Out Of The Shadows

Offline TheTraveller



PS: If I do decide to ramp my testing up to a point where it would be a business would that fact make it not as amateurish?

Actually, having done a few startups in my time, and having a bunch of vultural capitalists in tow, I could make you a "scientist" with a wave of the magic wand,  but it might turn you into a business lady.

The investment issues here is that there are pre-existing patent pendings, few if any physicists that think any of this is real, and no one who's written a business plan detailing how to get a 100 to 1 return on investment at a 30% probability if they invest.

I could sell this to a VC on the following conditions:
1.  The "experimentor" has prior startup experience
2.  The "experimentor" has a solid business plan if it works.
3.  The "experimentor" won't get their ass in court for patent infringement.
4.  The "experimentor" has something that either as patentable or has a trade secret that is unique.
5.  The "experimentor" has data that looks fantastic in a power point presentation (doesn't have to be real)
6.  The "experimentor" is willing to lose control of their company on demand and bow and scrape before a "hot" CEO who has no clue what's happening and will most likely tank the business.

Absent the above, everyone is back to "Go Fund Me"

Two quotes I've personally lived through to keep in mind.  :)

1.  It doesn't matter what is that counts, it only matters what people think it is that counts.
2.  In 30 years of investment banking, I've never heard a bad story.

Been there, done that. Several times.

I can deliver 1 - 6, with 6 being conditional on my payout.
It Is Time For The EmDrive To Come Out Of The Shadows

Offline TheTraveller


Uhhh, am I delusional?

IMHO yes, that is delusional.   :)

I think the issue is veritcal vs. horizontal.  If you know you will have veritical lift, then measure horizontally, i.e. rotational.  Put a nice vertical stopper so anything up or down doesn't get measured.  Get one of those gizmos that allows a 180 degree flip so you go clockwise or counter clockwise by flipping the whole gizmo on demand.  Not sure what that means in an actual implementation, but if you can flip 180 degrees and measure something horizontally, all the hot air balloon arguments go away, or at least, should go away.

IMHO

This is the Eagleworks setup.

None dummy load to test for EMC, static and magnetic effects.
« Last Edit: 10/13/2015 04:29 AM by TheTraveller »
It Is Time For The EmDrive To Come Out Of The Shadows

Offline Prunesquallor

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...if you can flip 180 degrees and measure something horizontally, all the hot air balloon arguments go away, or at least, should go away.

They won't. There are too many people (not necessarily here) who are emotionally invested in these experiments being false positives for any experiment to satisfy them. I don't think any publisher short of Nature or Physical Review Letters will convince them that there's a real effect.

Aw come-on.  I thought I had a brilliant idea.  Are you the dark lord of winter?  :)

A bit glum after a few too many "frauds," "meme-drives," "no credible research group is attempting to replicates," and "they'll never get signal above the noise floors." Sorry to be a Debbie Downer. :(

I'm actually pretty optimistic given Star Drive's post. It's obvious EW has continued vacuum testing, has obtained some interesting results, is publishing, and is moving forward with IV&V. The other encouragement is that since they have been working on a shoe-string budget and have obtained interesting results, NASA and/or others may be willing to make the necessary investment to take the next steps.
« Last Edit: 10/13/2015 12:15 AM by Prunesquallor »
Retired, yet... not

Offline SeeShells

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PS: If I do decide to ramp my testing up to a point where it would be a business would that fact make it not as amateurish?

Actually, having done a few startups in my time, and having a bunch of vultural capitalists in tow, I could make you a "scientist" with a wave of the magic wand,  but it might turn you into a business lady.

The investment issues here is that there are pre-existing patent pendings, few if any physicists that think any of this is real, and no one who's written a business plan detailing how to get a 100 to 1 return on investment at a 30% probability if they invest.

I could sell this to a VC on the following conditions:
1.  The "experimentor" has prior startup experience
2.  The "experimentor" has a solid business plan if it works.
3.  The "experimentor" won't get their ass in court for patent infringement.
4.  The "experimentor" has something that either as patentable or has a trade secret that is unique.
5.  The "experimentor" has data that looks fantastic in a power point presentation (doesn't have to be real)
6.  The "experimentor" is willing to lose control of their company on demand and bow and scrape before a "hot" CEO who has no clue what's happening and will most likely tank the business.

Absent the above, everyone is back to "Go Fund Me"

Two quotes I've personally lived through to keep in mind.  :)

1.  It doesn't matter what is that counts, it only matters what people think it is that counts.
2.  In 30 years of investment banking, I've never heard a bad story.
Let's see. If I did do a business it means it would be my 4th time and each one was successful. The last I had to close because of the crash of '08 with a lot of others because we lost millions in canceled orders, so what does a gal do? BTW I did have 1-5 covered very well.

I never sold my soul to a VC group and sometimes that is what they would want in return when they approached me.  I did manage to start each one without any major investments by the VC community. It's not easy I'll grant you that, but it's doable if you mind your Ps and Qs and get good people.

Number 6 is a position I would never allow, I knew the end game. I was the CEO and the major stock holder so the buck would always stop with me. I saw too many startups in Silicon Valley simply implode under extreme pressures of VC investors to perform to allow it to happen.

But all that said, right now my focus if getting this thing off the ground. <groan>

Shell

Offline TheTraveller

... I also suggest that all of us should look deeper into how Roger Shawyer designed and built his 2nd generation, 100kg rotary copper frustum test rig.  Why?  Because I think Roger's use of spherical end-caps in his 2nd gen copper frustum and on, AND the use of resonant mode frequency tracking and active feedback driven tuning of the frustum RF system, either mechanically and/or electronically, are the key elements needed to produce large impulsive thrust signals that measure in the hundreds of milli-Newton (mN).

Best, Paul March

Spot on and where I'm going.

And yes I fully agree, we can make 100mN or more DIY EMDrives but there is a recipe that needs to be followed.
It Is Time For The EmDrive To Come Out Of The Shadows

Offline rfmwguy

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PS: If I do decide to ramp my testing up to a point where it would be a business would that fact make it not as amateurish?

Actually, having done a few startups in my time, and having a bunch of vultural capitalists in tow, I could make you a "scientist" with a wave of the magic wand,  but it might turn you into a business lady.

The investment issues here is that there are pre-existing patent pendings, few if any physicists that think any of this is real, and no one who's written a business plan detailing how to get a 100 to 1 return on investment at a 30% probability if they invest.

I could sell this to a VC on the following conditions:
1.  The "experimentor" has prior startup experience
2.  The "experimentor" has a solid business plan if it works.
3.  The "experimentor" won't get their ass in court for patent infringement.
4.  The "experimentor" has something that either as patentable or has a trade secret that is unique.
5.  The "experimentor" has data that looks fantastic in a power point presentation (doesn't have to be real)
6.  The "experimentor" is willing to lose control of their company on demand and bow and scrape before a "hot" CEO who has no clue what's happening and will most likely tank the business.

Absent the above, everyone is back to "Go Fund Me"

Two quotes I've personally lived through to keep in mind.  :)

1.  It doesn't matter what is that counts, it only matters what people think it is that counts.
2.  In 30 years of investment banking, I've never heard a bad story.

Been there, done that. Several times.

I can deliver 1 - 6, with 6 being conditional on my payout.
#6 is where I've drawn the line in my previous lives. Never could get past answering to the CEO club types. You know, the round-robin CEOs moving (and messing up) one company after another in 3-6 year increments.

BTW, knowledge of the products and markets must be viewed as a negative, because none of them I've know had a clue. Creative accounting? Yes. Products? No.

Will be interesting to watch the scramble if this technology scales up...talk about disruptive market intros.




Offline rq3

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... I also suggest that all of us should look deeper into how Roger Shawyer designed and built his 2nd generation, 100kg rotary copper frustum test rig.  Why?  Because I think Roger's use of spherical end-caps in his 2nd gen copper frustum and on, AND the use of resonant mode frequency tracking and active feedback driven tuning of the frustum RF system, either mechanically and/or electronically, are the key elements needed to produce large impulsive thrust signals that measure in the hundreds of milli-Newton (mN).

Best, Paul March

Spot on and where I'm going.

And yes I fully agree, we can make 100mN or more DIY EMDrives but there is a recipe that needs to be followed.

Unless I'm missing something, it really looks bad when you conflate radius and diameter. What else do we have to guess at to understand your approach? Is the center of curvature for the endplates a radius? What is its origin? Be clear. Be concise. Be careful. No handwaving allowed. None. If you choose to publish drawings, they should be of sufficient quality that another person, "schooled in the art", can replicate your device and results.

Offline TheTraveller

Hey, our good friend Chris Bergin made some Tech Times news!

http://www.techtimes.com/articles/93272/20151010/is-spacex-going-to-mars-rumors-of-a-red-planet-mission-circulate-after-cryptic-tweet-from-space-journalist.htm

Attaboy Chris, keep 'em guessing!

I'd speculate it is more than JFK's speech at Rice University, sort of things we know, but at a much higher than expected level.
It Is Time For The EmDrive To Come Out Of The Shadows

Offline TheTraveller

Unless I'm missing something, it really looks bad when you conflate radius and diameter. What else do we have to guess at to understand your approach? Is the center of curvature for the endplates a radius? What is its origin? Be clear. Be concise. Be careful. No handwaving allowed. None. If you choose to publish drawings, they should be of sufficient quality that another person, "schooled in the art", can replicate your device and results.

Roger made that clear quite some time ago. End plates radius from the frustum vertex.

My design is 2nd image.

It Is Time For The EmDrive To Come Out Of The Shadows

Offline Tellmeagain

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This is the Eagleworks setup.

None dummy load to test for EMC, static and magnetic effects.

Where did you get the photos? The last two pictures seemed new. Are they published?

Offline TheTraveller


This is the Eagleworks setup.

None dummy load to test for EMC, static and magnetic effects.

Where did you get the photos? The last two pictures seemed new. Are they published?

From Paul's attachments shared on NSF.
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?action=profile;area=showposts;sa=attach;u=2074

I downloaded ALL of his attachments and put them into a folder for easy access.

« Last Edit: 10/13/2015 04:06 AM by TheTraveller »
It Is Time For The EmDrive To Come Out Of The Shadows

Offline Tellmeagain

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This is the Eagleworks setup.

None dummy load to test for EMC, static and magnetic effects.

Where did you get the photos? The last two pictures seemed new. Are they published?

From Paul's attachments shared on NSF.
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?action=profile;area=showposts;sa=attach;u=2074

I downloaded ALL of his attachments and put them into a folder for easy access.

Thank you! I thought he went silent. It seems he is active again.

Offline Stormbringer

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This is the Eagleworks setup.

None dummy load to test for EMC, static and magnetic effects.

Where did you get the photos? The last two pictures seemed new. Are they published?

From Paul's attachments shared on NSF.
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?action=profile;area=showposts;sa=attach;u=2074

I downloaded ALL of his attachments and put them into a folder for easy access.

Thank you! I thought he went silent. It seems he is active again.
Yeah; but he still cannot divulge much. for instance did the test article ever get sent to and accepted at Glenn? I don't think he has said. If he did I missed it. An affirmative answer would almost have to mean they met the stated thrust signal goal involved.
When antigravity is outlawed only outlaws will have antigravity.

Offline TheTraveller

Yeah; but he still cannot divulge much. for instance did the test article ever get sent to and accepted at Glenn? I don't think he has said. If he did I missed it. An affirmative answer would almost have to mean they met the stated thrust signal goal involved.

Paul said:
Quote
We are also preparing to test our copper frustum in another NASA test facility as part of an Independent Verification & Validation (IV&V) requirement mandated by JSC management, but again that is several months off, so it will take even more time to divulge those test results, pro or con.

That should answer your question.
« Last Edit: 10/13/2015 05:05 AM by TheTraveller »
It Is Time For The EmDrive To Come Out Of The Shadows

Offline Stormbringer

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If that refers to Glenn then they got the consistent thrust level they were shooting for in order to do that. :)

So they got their what? 100 110 mn? milestone. Whatever it was they did it! :)
When antigravity is outlawed only outlaws will have antigravity.

Offline birchoff

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If that refers to Glenn then they got the consistent thrust level they were shooting for in order to do that. :)

So they got their what? 100 110 mn? milestone. Whatever it was they did it! :)

microNewtons not milliNewtons

Offline Stormbringer

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If that refers to Glenn then they got the consistent thrust level they were shooting for in order to do that. :)

So they got their what? 100 110 mn? milestone. Whatever it was they did it! :)

microNewtons not milliNewtons
details, details! :)
When antigravity is outlawed only outlaws will have antigravity.

Offline TheTraveller

If that refers to Glenn then they got the consistent thrust level they were shooting for in order to do that. :)

So they got their what? 100 110 mn? milestone. Whatever it was they did it! :)

microNewtons not milliNewtons

Think Paul mentioned some time ago they needed a reliable right & left facing min 100uN in vac for the Glenn tests.
It Is Time For The EmDrive To Come Out Of The Shadows

Offline Flyby

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whaaaa... :o I skip just one day of forum reading and then Paul March posts....damn... i should have skipped more then...

Anyway, I'm veeeery excited to read that the tests are done and peer reviewers (I'm guessing we know at least 1 of them) are doing their jobs...

The full, long version of Shawyer's rotary test video is what kept my interest in this EMdrive project and keep it in consideration as something "real". Still on the fence though. I'd need more "evidence" to be really convinced.

The fact that P.March now suggest to the DIY crowd to focus on a rotary setup with a curved plate seems to indicate they've found something with a build setup in that direction...

arrhhh...
Curiosity killed the cat.. for sure...
Paul, seriously, how am I supposed to sleep at night now,  for the coming weeks ? sigh...
« Last Edit: 10/13/2015 10:04 AM by Flyby »

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