Author Topic: EM Drive Developments - related to space flight applications - Thread 5  (Read 952088 times)

Offline A_M_Swallow

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Hello,

Mine is the perspective of an outsider who has followed EM Drive for a couple years and this forum only recently.  I have been considering dialog about lulls in new information from companies and organizations involved in research along with a lack of funding or even commitment to aggressively pursue the technology.  It seems the EM Drive has the potential to be extremely disruptive (understatement).  If one accepts the technology as legitimate and predictable in line with what is mentioned here and elsewhere then you would rationally have to accept as legitimate the implications of that technology.  Projected non-superconducting EM Drive capabilities are considerable enough but if superconducting cavities can be expected to be integrated into systems routinely 30 years from now, air and space platforms (planes and rockets) could be obsolete for many of the uses considered routine now.  That is more than a little disruptive.

For someone in charge of budgeting, planning and charting a course for any of the organizations this could impact it could give them, and the people routing information to them, pause.  If EM Drive is legitimate and its potential is realized how does one justify 20 or 30 year plans and the multi-billion dollar programs to develop the technology needed to execute them if they may be obsolete shortly after they mature?  A deliberate and initially skeptical approach can make sense from this perspective.  If and when EM Drive's potential is accepted and unlocked it may introduce some risk and hard questions for a number of people and organizations.  I'm not suggesting these dynamics are deliberate acts, but more so that they may just be an inherent part of the environment.

Just some thoughts from someone outside the aerospace/NASA community, thanks for humoring them.

You have just given reasons why planning 30 years a head is very risky. On the other hand I suspect in 40 years time we may have EMDrive cars, driving above roads first built by the Romans 2000 years ago.

Beyond a few probes to the Moon, Mars and GEO there will be little output from these experiments in 10 years time. There may however be major research programs to develop EMDrives able to push manned transfer vehicles to Mars - say halving the launch mass. Above road vehicles and aircraft could have similar development programs producing results in about 20 years time.

Offline Silversheep2011

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Just some thoughts from someone outside the aerospace/NASA community, thanks for humoring them.

You have just given reasons why planning 30 years a head is very risky. On the other hand I suspect in 40 years time we may have EMDrive cars, driving above roads first built by the Romans 2000 years ago.


humoring you...
 
Commentary from way back in 1989



note the x4 emDrive thruster's  within the wheels!
very disruptive...
It could all be happening here in thread5....

Offline SeeShells

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A question - I'm sure that it has been answered here somewhere but I don't remember the details.

In which direction does the speed of light accelerate in the EM drive cavity? That is, are the EM waves moving faster as they approach the large end, or the small end of the frustum?  I think it must be the large end because that fits with the idea that the waves interact with the QV and drag the virtual particles (EM disturbances in the vacuum) along with them, accelerating them toward the large end. And of course, just as in Paul March's square dance analogy, the virtual particles disappear into the QV before they do anything more than suck momentum from the EM waves of the frustum. On the other hand, I could be confused about the reaction-action-reaction phenomenon. Maybe its a triple dance step.

This is really a pretty simple answer to the question of "What is the cause of the thrust?"
Which Simulation would you think is causing thrust?

Added:

It's not that simple because both actions of this simulation can seemingly lead to thrust, it depends what theory you adhere to as to what causes thrust.
This is the same simulation run, but reversed. You can see why I decided to do two different frustum excitements in my experiment.

Busy day today.

Shell

Added. I believe this last is EW's design but with the antennas in the small end. I don't have the loop in the big end simulation.
« Last Edit: 10/10/2015 03:23 PM by SeeShells »

Offline rfmwguy

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VNA on the way. NSF-1701 Qr measurement late next week.

Will take screen shots.

I now return you to your regularly scheduled programming  8)


Offline SeeShells

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VNA on the way. NSF-1701 Qr measurement late next week.

Will take screen shots.

I now return you to your regularly scheduled programming  8)

Attaboy big guy! Now you can do some big boy/girl testing.

Shell

Offline rfmwguy

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VNA on the way. NSF-1701 Qr measurement late next week.

Will take screen shots.

I now return you to your regularly scheduled programming  8)

Attaboy big guy! Now you can do some big boy/girl testing.

Shell
Coming from the Test Equipment industry, I decided to use PC based modules rather than stand alone stuff like I used to sell.

Come to think of it, perhaps thats why it was an ex-career ;)

Offline Tetrakis

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After five threads there is no statistically significant data set supporting the "EMDrive" hypothesis. More than 50% of posts in this thread now come from three members, all conducting their own amateur experiments. Interest has plummeted exponentially in this thread and on Reddit. How does any of this relate to spaceflight?

Offline rfmwguy

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After five threads there is no statistically significant data set supporting the "EMDrive" hypothesis. More than 50% of posts in this thread now come from three members, all conducting their own amateur experiments. Interest has plummeted exponentially in this thread and on Reddit. How does any of this relate to spaceflight?
An amateur experiment is exponentially better than the one you are conducting  8)

Offline RotoSequence

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After five threads there is no statistically significant data set supporting the "EMDrive" hypothesis. More than 50% of posts in this thread now come from three members, all conducting their own amateur experiments. Interest has plummeted exponentially in this thread and on Reddit. How does any of this relate to spaceflight?
An amateur experiment is exponentially better than the one you are conducting  8)

I thought the conclusion of your particular experiment was that the effect of displacement from turning the magnetron on is statistically significant. :o
« Last Edit: 10/10/2015 06:48 PM by RotoSequence »

Offline rfmwguy

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After five threads there is no statistically significant data set supporting the "EMDrive" hypothesis. More than 50% of posts in this thread now come from three members, all conducting their own amateur experiments. Interest has plummeted exponentially in this thread and on Reddit. How does any of this relate to spaceflight?
An amateur experiment is exponentially better than the one you are conducting  8)

I thought the conclusion of your particular experiment was that the effect of displacement from turning the magnetron on is statistically significant. :o
Yes, it was by me and the data analsyst as well as those who bothered to download the paper.

This poster is uninformed...

Offline SeeShells

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After five threads there is no statistically significant data set supporting the "EMDrive" hypothesis. More than 50% of posts in this thread now come from three members, all conducting their own amateur experiments. Interest has plummeted exponentially in this thread and on Reddit. How does any of this relate to spaceflight?
Is that like Amateur Hams and the work they have done?

I've invested almost 50 years of building electronics and 40 in engineering to back this work up. I've set aside, in my shop a 18x22 foot dedicated lab to test this in. This is not like hanging a drive from a shower curtain and driving it with a WalMart $100 microwave oven, watching it move. I can say the same for the rest of the builders here that we are very serious at building the best testing devices we can and between all of us we have over a 100 years of engineering backgrounds. Not quite amateur class.

How does it relate to spaceflight? Why don't you tell me how it doesn't.

Shell
« Last Edit: 10/10/2015 06:57 PM by SeeShells »

Offline rfmwguy

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After five threads there is no statistically significant data set supporting the "EMDrive" hypothesis. More than 50% of posts in this thread now come from three members, all conducting their own amateur experiments. Interest has plummeted exponentially in this thread and on Reddit. How does any of this relate to spaceflight?
Is that like Amateur Hams and the work they have done?

I've invested almost 50 years of building electronics and 40 in engineering to back this work up. I've set aside, in my shop a 18x22 foot dedicated lab to test this in. This is not like hanging a drive from a shower curtain and driving it with a WalMart $100 microwave oven, watching it move. I can say the same for the rest of the builders here that we are very serious at building the best testing devices we can and between all of us we have over a 100 years of engineering backgrounds. Not quite amateur class.

How does it relate to spaceflight? Why don't you tell me how it doesn't.

Shell
Whatever you say, you amateur... ::) lol

Offline SeeShells

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After five threads there is no statistically significant data set supporting the "EMDrive" hypothesis. More than 50% of posts in this thread now come from three members, all conducting their own amateur experiments. Interest has plummeted exponentially in this thread and on Reddit. How does any of this relate to spaceflight?
Is that like Amateur Hams and the work they have done?

I've invested almost 50 years of building electronics and 40 in engineering to back this work up. I've set aside, in my shop a 18x22 foot dedicated lab to test this in. This is not like hanging a drive from a shower curtain and driving it with a WalMart $100 microwave oven, watching it move. I can say the same for the rest of the builders here that we are very serious at building the best testing devices we can and between all of us we have over a 100 years of engineering backgrounds. Not quite amateur class.

How does it relate to spaceflight? Why don't you tell me how it doesn't.

Shell
Whatever you say, you amateur... ::) lol
Ham it up... lol

Online RonM

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After five threads there is no statistically significant data set supporting the "EMDrive" hypothesis. More than 50% of posts in this thread now come from three members, all conducting their own amateur experiments. Interest has plummeted exponentially in this thread and on Reddit. How does any of this relate to spaceflight?
An amateur experiment is exponentially better than the one you are conducting  8)

I thought the conclusion of your particular experiment was that the effect of displacement from turning the magnetron on is statistically significant. :o
Yes, it was by me and the data analsyst as well as those who bothered to download the paper.

This poster is uninformed...

... and impatient.

Research takes a long time and a great deal of work. How many years has Shawyer been working on this? Our "amateur" scientists and engineers should be applauded for all their hard work and contributions to this forum.

Keep up the good work!

Offline SeeShells

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Well today I'm not going to be working on the Tests. Have 2 friends who's birthdays fall in the month of October like mine. It's party time with about 30-40 ppl showing and no building the drive today.  ;D

Tomorrow is another day and back at it.

Shell

Offline Ayreos

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I wish i had something better to contribute to the magnificent pursuit of knowledge this thread represents, but alas, my field of study is biotech, so i'll just contribute two elementary thoughts:

1) Feeding trolls is a waste of infinitely precious experiment time.
2) Science gains more by ruling out the impossible than by pursuing the plausible!

Offline aero

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A question - I'm sure that it has been answered here somewhere but I don't remember the details.

In which direction does the speed of light accelerate in the EM drive cavity? That is, are the EM waves moving faster as they approach the large end, or the small end of the frustum?  I think it must be the large end because that fits with the idea that the waves interact with the QV and drag the virtual particles (EM disturbances in the vacuum) along with them, accelerating them toward the large end. And of course, just as in Paul March's square dance analogy, the virtual particles disappear into the QV before they do anything more than suck momentum from the EM waves of the frustum. On the other hand, I could be confused about the reaction-action-reaction phenomenon. Maybe its a triple dance step.

This is really a pretty simple answer to the question of "What is the cause of the thrust?"
Which Simulation would you think is causing thrust?

Added:

It's not that simple because both actions of this simulation can seemingly lead to thrust, it depends what theory you adhere to as to what causes thrust.
This is the same simulation run, but reversed. You can see why I decided to do two different frustum excitements in my experiment.

Busy day today.

Shell

Added. I believe this last is EW's design but with the antennas in the small end. I don't have the loop in the big end simulation.

Shell - We have ran enough simulations and members of this forum have evaluated enough EM wave propagation theory to understand that a very tiny antenna source down in the corner of the big end can not cause a symmetrically propagating resonant wave to appear within the limited start-up time available for meep computation/simulation.

I haven't made that run but I will do so now that you bring it up. I expect to see a very skewed wave pattern, what do you expect?

Oh, and a simulation problem. Paul reported that he rotated the loop antenna to maximize the S11 return loss. Is that to be simulated by rotating the antenna to maximize Q?
Retired, working interesting problems

Offline TheTraveller

After five threads there is no statistically significant data set supporting the "EMDrive" hypothesis. More than 50% of posts in this thread now come from three members, all conducting their own amateur experiments. Interest has plummeted exponentially in this thread and on Reddit. How does any of this relate to spaceflight?

I suggest you review my NASA Eagleworks EMDrive test data archive:

https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B7kgKijo-p0iS3hvZzV5Rzl6Rlk&usp=sharing

The EMDrive Force generation profiles are very clear. Especially like these 5:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B7kgKijo-p0iQkZwS0RaX0RiN00/view

Apply Rf power, Force is generated. Remove Rf power, Force generation stops. Nice, clean & very clear.

The Eaglework professionals do a good job.

Anyone still thinking this is measurement error is crawing out on a very thin branch, that may one day fail them very badly.

It is time to ask why traditional analysis and theory when applied to the EMDrive fails to predict the real world Force as measured in 5 labs, in 4 countries, on 8 devices.

That is where the measurement error exists and not in the work of the 5 labs.
« Last Edit: 10/11/2015 12:57 AM by TheTraveller »
It Is Time For The EmDrive To Come Out Of The Shadows

Offline Tetrakis

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I suppose I should be more specific. The data is borderline significant, but the "result" claimed is based on a faulty experimental design. The experiments were not performed in vacuum, and so there is no real way to completely eliminate thermal effects from the data. Without vacuum tests the "results" are not credible, even if the data was really good. I'm sure that if I put a toaster on the end of a lever and measured the force when on or off, that I would be able to extract some kind of similar signal from the noise.

And as I have said before, I am a chemist. I'm trying to inject some "non-enthusiast" perspective into the thread. I'm amazed that I'm considered a troll when posts predicting flying cars in 10 years are welcomed. I understand that you are all excited about the Eagleworks data (which, as I understand, do not include a rigorous error analysis), but if you want people outside the thread to care about what you do you should do it right or not at all. Compared to the amount of money spent on your test rigs a vacuum pump/turbomolecular pump and associated piping can be had for about 7,000. A chamber is also pretty easy to build, disposable copper gaskets and a big piece of welded steel should be relatively obtainable.
« Last Edit: 10/11/2015 02:59 AM by Tetrakis »

Offline TheTraveller

I suppose I should be more specific. The data is borderline significant, but the "result" claimed is based on a faulty experimental design. The experiments were not performed in vacuum, and so there is no real way to completely eliminate thermal effects from the data. Without vacuum tests the "results" are not credible, even if the data was really good. I'm sure that if I put a toaster on the end of a lever and measured the force when on or off, that I would be able to extract some kind of similar signal from the noise.

And as I have said before, I am a chemist. I'm trying to inject some "non-enthusiast" perspective into the thread. I understand that you are all excited about the Eagleworks data, but if you want people outside the thread to care about what you do you should do it right or not at all.

You have read how the Eagleworks tests were done?

The frustum length axis was horizontal as was the generated and measured Force vector. Thermal effects produce a vertically upward lift, which should not generated a horizontal Force.

Next look at the rise and fall time of the Force signals as the Rf is turned on and off. As an engineer, no way is that a thermal signal, which would take time to build up and time to decay.

While there may be some thermally generated centre of mass movement from slow thermal expansion of the frustum visible as slow base line shifts, again no way is this capable of generating the rapid rise and fall of the Force as the Rf is turned On and Off.

I really struggle to understand how you can see the horizontal Force profile's rapid rise and fall times being thermally generated. Please share how you see this being possible.
It Is Time For The EmDrive To Come Out Of The Shadows

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