Author Topic: EM Drive Developments - related to space flight applications - Thread 5  (Read 939632 times)

Offline zellerium

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 172
  • Pittsburgh, PA
  • Liked: 283
  • Likes Given: 402
Hey everyone,

Papers have been published, the first details our investigation, the second outlines our newest proposal, and the third discusses the previous experiments. (The third hasn't changed much and could use more updating)

You can find them all on my linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kurtwadezeller

Or I'll attach a download link for those that don't have a linkedin account.

-Kurt
Excellent papers! Quick update (words marked in red) on the 3rd paper: Analysis of Anomalous Thrust Experiments from an Asymmetric Cavity

6Dristler, D., "Microwave Energy Injection into a Conical Frustum: The NSF-1701 Phase I Test Report", Chagrin Fall, OH.

Should be:

6Distler, D., "Microwave Energy Injection into a Conical Frustum: The NSF-1701 Phase I Test Report", Chagrin Falls, OH.

Ah, apologies, thank you for the correction!

Offline rfmwguy

  • EmDrive Builder (retired)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2166
  • Liked: 2684
  • Likes Given: 1124
Hey everyone,

Papers have been published, the first details our investigation, the second outlines our newest proposal, and the third discusses the previous experiments. (The third hasn't changed much and could use more updating)

You can find them all on my linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kurtwadezeller

Or I'll attach a download link for those that don't have a linkedin account.

-Kurt
Excellent papers! Quick update (words marked in red) on the 3rd paper: Analysis of Anomalous Thrust Experiments from an Asymmetric Cavity

6Dristler, D., "Microwave Energy Injection into a Conical Frustum: The NSF-1701 Phase I Test Report", Chagrin Fall, OH.

Should be:

6Distler, D., "Microwave Energy Injection into a Conical Frustum: The NSF-1701 Phase I Test Report", Chagrin Falls, OH.

Ah, apologies, thank you for the correction!
No problem Kurt! I did update emdrive.wiki with my data, only awaiting VNA testing for resonance & Q numbers. Think I'll be using the Qr or Q ratio measuring the 3dB BW ratios from insertion and best return loss resonance.

If you need any pics for your paper, let me know, otherwise, feel free to reference the Phase I TR data or commentary as needed.

Dave


Offline aero

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2927
  • 92129
  • Liked: 783
  • Likes Given: 272
In case anyone wonders just how linear are Maxwell's equations, the attached shows what meep calculates.

I started with SeeShells CE3 cavity and multiplied the frequency by scale = 23.87 GHz / 2.48 GHz = 9.625
Then I divided each of the dimensions by "scale" ie. 9.625. I used the drive frequency of 23.87 GHz and ran meep/Harminv. This calculated a resonant frequency of about 23.91 GHz, with high  Q . 

You will observe that the error in the original resonant frequency, 2.48 GHz, was also scaled by this approach. I'm pretty sure that is why the resonant frequency was initially off by 0.04 GHz.

Leaving the drive frequency at 23.87 GHz, I multiplied the dimension scale by a factor, given on the image. As you can see, the resonant frequency was driven to 23.87 GHz in a very nice, linear fashion. All of the calculated Q's were nice and high, showing good resonance.

Retired, working interesting problems

Offline cosmo

  • Member
  • Posts: 8
  • Carlsbad, CA
  • Liked: 12
  • Likes Given: 1
I see that there are interesting solid-state alternatives to magnetrons coming available from NXP semiconductor.  Also, they have some evaluation tools that might fit in well with EMDrive validation efforts.  Here are some links to the relevant information -

http://www.nxp.com/applications/rf-energy/
http://www.nxp.com/documents/leaflet/75017630.pdf
http://www.nxp.com/documents/white_paper/75017647.pdf

Just curious what the EE/Microwave engineers could make of these products.  The frequency tunability and stability would fit well into EMDrive use.  Although the components are relatively inexpensive, the ready to use evaluation products aren't (pretty typical in the semi industry).

After some digging, the evaluation Blaze 250 (300W) / Blaze 500 (600W) 2.45GHz amplifiers are $2495 and $3995, respectively.  Probably out of the budget of individual builders, but certainly not some universities or NASA.

[Edit]
Re-ordered links above.  Note that the System 250-2.45-1 or System 500-2.45-1 (see 2nd link above) look like a complete, easily programmable solution for a Frustum microwave source without the problems associated with a Magnetron drive.

Kurt
« Last Edit: 10/11/2015 03:42 PM by cosmo »

Offline rfmwguy

  • EmDrive Builder (retired)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2166
  • Liked: 2684
  • Likes Given: 1124
Drive builders head's up. Cheap magnetrons...bought a couple just to disassemble and use radome:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/151832903779

Offline X_RaY

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 808
  • Germany
  • Liked: 1048
  • Likes Given: 2297
This is my last spreadsheet in comparison to the NASA_Comsol calculations using a single formula based on cylindrical coordinates for all the different modes in the plot. I think this is the border using that kind of equations, for more accuracy the method explained by dr.rodal  (or FEM/FDM) ::) , using sperical coordinates (or field simulations)is necessary,not the simple sin/cos properties of the cylindrical system.
But I think it's not really bad ;)

« Last Edit: 10/14/2015 05:27 PM by X_RaY »

Offline Bob Woods

  • Full Member
  • **
  • Posts: 279
  • Salem, Oregon USA
  • Liked: 387
  • Likes Given: 1241
For Inquiring Minds Who Want To Know.

Some building pictures, took the time to upload and write about each step.

http://s1039.photobucket.com/user/shells2bells2002/library/CE%20Electromagnetic%20Reaction%20Thruster?sort=2&page=1

Thanks for the pic's. You get bonus points for neatness of your shop.

Offline rfmwguy

  • EmDrive Builder (retired)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2166
  • Liked: 2684
  • Likes Given: 1124
Drive builders head's up. Cheap magnetrons...bought a couple just to disassemble and use radome:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/151832903779
Guess what? This seller raised his price to 89 each after I bought 2 for 2.95 each.

Bet they won't ship...we'll see >:(

Offline Bob Woods

  • Full Member
  • **
  • Posts: 279
  • Salem, Oregon USA
  • Liked: 387
  • Likes Given: 1241
Hey everyone,

Papers have been published, the first details our investigation, the second outlines our newest proposal, and the third discusses the previous experiments. (The third hasn't changed much and could use more updating)

You can find them all on my linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kurtwadezeller

Or I'll attach a download link for those that don't have a linkedin account.

-Kurt

Nice work. Keep at it and get ready for a long and fruitful life in research.

Offline TheTraveller

This is my last spreadsheet in comparison to the NASA_Comsol calculations using a single formula based on cylindrical coordinates for all the different modes in the plot. I think this is the border using that kind of equations, for more accuracy the method explained by dr.rodal  (or FEM/FDM) ::) , using sperical coordinates (or field simulations)is necessary,not the simple sin/cos properties of the cylindrical system.
But I think it's not really bad ;)

Nice work.

Can you please share your spreadsheet? Would like to compare our resonance versus mode data.
It Is Time For The EmDrive To Come Out Of The Shadows

Offline TheTraveller


Dave, Shell, The Traveler & Crew:

It's been awhile since I last posted on this forum and sadly I still can't say anything about what is going on in the Eagleworks (EW) Lab other than Dr. White & I continue to work on testing Q-Thrusters and delving into the science behind them, within the constraints of a still VERY limited budget.

Paul March, Friendswood, TX

Hey Paul. Welcome back.

Must be something we can do to make your management take your work seriously and properly fund it. I mean what would be the effect of a working 50mN (0.5N/kW) EMDrive, accelerating for 10 minutes, with full data, have on their opinion?

Phil Wilson
« Last Edit: 10/10/2015 03:19 AM by TheTraveller »
It Is Time For The EmDrive To Come Out Of The Shadows

Offline aero

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2927
  • 92129
  • Liked: 783
  • Likes Given: 272
A question - I'm sure that it has been answered here somewhere but I don't remember the details.

In which direction does the speed of light accelerate in the EM drive cavity? That is, are the EM waves moving faster as they approach the large end, or the small end of the frustum?  I think it must be the large end because that fits with the idea that the waves interact with the QV and drag the virtual particles (EM disturbances in the vacuum) along with them, accelerating them toward the large end. And of course, just as in Paul March's square dance analogy, the virtual particles disappear into the QV before they do anything more than suck momentum from the EM waves of the frustum. On the other hand, I could be confused about the reaction-action-reaction phenomenon. Maybe its a triple dance step.

This is really a pretty simple answer to the question of "What is the cause of the thrust?"
Retired, working interesting problems

Offline TheTraveller

A question - I'm sure that it has been answered here somewhere but I don't remember the details.

In which direction does the speed of light accelerate in the EM drive cavity? That is, are the EM waves moving faster as they approach the large end, or the small end of the frustum?  I think it must be the large end because that fits with the idea that the waves interact with the QV and drag the virtual particles (EM disturbances in the vacuum) along with them, accelerating them toward the large end. And of course, just as in Paul March's square dance analogy, the virtual particles disappear into the QV before they do anything more than suck momentum from the EM waves of the frustum. On the other hand, I could be confused about the reaction-action-reaction phenomenon. Maybe its a triple dance step.

This is really a pretty simple answer to the question of "What is the cause of the thrust?"

My understanding is:

At the big end, the guide wavelength is the shortest and the group velocity / momentum of the EM wave is the highest.

All reverse at the small end.

This causes a monentum gradient to develope inside the EMDrive with the EM waves moving toward the small end losing momentum and the EM waves moving toward the big end gaining momentum.

The EMDrive then obeys Newton 3 and moves toward the small end to balance the momentum increase toward the big end.

End plate bounce force is not directly involved in the Shawyer Effect's externally generated Force but the end plate bounce does setup part of the required enviroment for the effect to happen.

Phil
« Last Edit: 10/10/2015 05:56 AM by TheTraveller »
It Is Time For The EmDrive To Come Out Of The Shadows

Offline Intrigued

  • Member
  • Posts: 1
  • Oklahoma
  • Liked: 0
  • Likes Given: 1
Hello,

Mine is the perspective of an outsider who has followed EM Drive for a couple years and this forum only recently.  I have been considering dialog about lulls in new information from companies and organizations involved in research along with a lack of funding or even commitment to aggressively pursue the technology.  It seems the EM Drive has the potential to be extremely disruptive (understatement).  If one accepts the technology as legitimate and predictable in line with what is mentioned here and elsewhere then you would rationally have to accept as legitimate the implications of that technology.  Projected non-superconducting EM Drive capabilities are considerable enough but if superconducting cavities can be expected to be integrated into systems routinely 30 years from now, air and space platforms (planes and rockets) could be obsolete for many of the uses considered routine now.  That is more than a little disruptive.

For someone in charge of budgeting, planning and charting a course for any of the organizations this could impact it could give them, and the people routing information to them, pause.  If EM Drive is legitimate and its potential is realized how does one justify 20 or 30 year plans and the multi-billion dollar programs to develop the technology needed to execute them if they may be obsolete shortly after they mature?  A deliberate and initially skeptical approach can make sense from this perspective.  If and when EM Drive's potential is accepted and unlocked it may introduce some risk and hard questions for a number of people and organizations.  I'm not suggesting these dynamics are deliberate acts, but more so that they may just be an inherent part of the environment.

Just some thoughts from someone outside the aerospace/NASA community, thanks for humoring them.

Offline aero

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2927
  • 92129
  • Liked: 783
  • Likes Given: 272
Hello,

Mine is the perspective of an outsider who has followed EM Drive for a couple years and this forum only recently.  I have been considering dialog about lulls in new information from companies and organizations involved in research along with a lack of funding or even commitment to aggressively pursue the technology.  It seems the EM Drive has the potential to be extremely disruptive (understatement).  If one accepts the technology as legitimate and predictable in line with what is mentioned here and elsewhere then you would rationally have to accept as legitimate the implications of that technology.  Projected non-superconducting EM Drive capabilities are considerable enough but if superconducting cavities can be expected to be integrated into systems routinely 30 years from now, air and space platforms (planes and rockets) could be obsolete for many of the uses considered routine now.  That is more than a little disruptive.

For someone in charge of budgeting, planning and charting a course for any of the organizations this could impact it could give them, and the people routing information to them, pause.  If EM Drive is legitimate and its potential is realized how does one justify 20 or 30 year plans and the multi-billion dollar programs to develop the technology needed to execute them if they may be obsolete shortly after they mature?  A deliberate and initially skeptical approach can make sense from this perspective.  If and when EM Drive's potential is accepted and unlocked it may introduce some risk and hard questions for a number of people and organizations.  I'm not suggesting these dynamics are deliberate acts, but more so that they may just be an inherent part of the environment.

Just some thoughts from someone outside the aerospace/NASA community, thanks for humoring them.

Hi and welcome. Consider this, published in "Forbes" and first quoted back on thread 3.

Quote
The reason I’m writing this? If this force engine were to work, every industry you invest in will be turned upside down. Admittedly, this is a very early call.  Inventing a time machine would be more dramatic than EmDrive but not a lot more. A force engine would be like inventing fire.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/investor/2015/05/29/investor-alert-emdrive-could-make-uber-seem-about-as-disruptive-as-a-sweat-smear/2/
Retired, working interesting problems

Offline geza

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 191
  • Budapest
    • Géza Meszéna's web page
  • Liked: 49
  • Likes Given: 32
Quote
My understanding is:

At the big end, the guide wavelength is the shortest and the group velocity / momentum of the EM wave is the highest.

All reverse at the small end.

This causes a monentum gradient to develope inside the EMDrive with the EM waves moving toward the small end losing momentum and the EM waves moving toward the big end gaining momentum.

The EMDrive then obeys Newton 3 and moves toward the small end to balance the momentum increase toward the big end.

End plate bounce force is not directly involved in the Shawyer Effect's externally generated Force but the end plate bounce does setup part of the required environment for the effect to happen.

Phil

Thanks for your explanation! Still, I do not understand fully. If the EM wave bounces back at the end plate, then the momentum generated according to your explanation does not leave the cavity. You cannot ignore the bounce force (momentum transfer from the EM field to the cavity) just by saying that it is not directly involved in the effect. Can you clarify?
« Last Edit: 10/10/2015 06:10 AM by geza »

Offline TheTraveller

Quote
My understanding is:

At the big end, the guide wavelength is the shortest and the group velocity / momentum of the EM wave is the highest.

All reverse at the small end.

This causes a monentum gradient to develope inside the EMDrive with the EM waves moving toward the small end losing momentum and the EM waves moving toward the big end gaining momentum.

The EMDrive then obeys Newton 3 and moves toward the small end to balance the momentum increase toward the big end.

End plate bounce force is not directly involved in the Shawyer Effect's externally generated Force but the end plate bounce does setup part of the required environment for the effect to happen.

Phil

Thanks for your explanation! Still, I do not understand fully. If the EM wave bounces back at the end plate, then the momentum generated according to your explanation does not leave the cavity. You cannot ignore the bounce force (momentum transfer from the EM field to the cavity) just by saying that it is not directly involved in the effect. Can you clarify?

The end plate bounces are not what generates the external Force. Their action/reaction Forces balance each other out.

What causes the external Force is the change in the EM wave's momentum, guide wavelength and group velocity during the passage of the EM wave BETWEEN the end plates.

For the EM wave to GAIN momentum as it travels from the small end to the big end, requires the frustum to move in the opposite way, toward the small end. Rocket like action.

Likewise for the EM wave to LOSE momentum as it travels from the big end to small end, requires the frustum to move in the same way, toward the small end. Sail like action.

So it is the changing EM wave momentum as it "travels" between the end plates that breaks symmetry and not the end plate bounce.

As per the attached SPR graphic, Shawyer shows the end plate action/ reaction bounce Forces balance each other out and are NOT the source of the externally generated "Shawyer Effect" Force.

Phil
« Last Edit: 10/10/2015 07:20 AM by TheTraveller »
It Is Time For The EmDrive To Come Out Of The Shadows

Offline geza

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 191
  • Budapest
    • Géza Meszéna's web page
  • Liked: 49
  • Likes Given: 32
That is, the EM field periodically gains and looses momentum, because of its interaction with the frustrum. The trivial expectation would be that the frustrum looses and gains momentum such that the combined momentum remains always conserved. This is not true in this case? Where does the quantum vacuum enter the picture?

Offline TheTraveller

That is, the EM field periodically gains and looses momentum, because of its interaction with the frustrum. The trivial expectation would be that the frustrum looses and gains momentum such that the combined momentum remains always conserved. This is not true in this case? Where does the quantum vacuum enter the picture?

QV is a theory of NASA Eagleworks Dr. White.
It Is Time For The EmDrive To Come Out Of The Shadows

Offline SeeShells

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2363
  • Every action there's a reaction we try to grasp.
  • United States
  • Liked: 3089
  • Likes Given: 2657
A question - I'm sure that it has been answered here somewhere but I don't remember the details.

In which direction does the speed of light accelerate in the EM drive cavity? That is, are the EM waves moving faster as they approach the large end, or the small end of the frustum?  I think it must be the large end because that fits with the idea that the waves interact with the QV and drag the virtual particles (EM disturbances in the vacuum) along with them, accelerating them toward the large end. And of course, just as in Paul March's square dance analogy, the virtual particles disappear into the QV before they do anything more than suck momentum from the EM waves of the frustum. On the other hand, I could be confused about the reaction-action-reaction phenomenon. Maybe its a triple dance step.

This is really a pretty simple answer to the question of "What is the cause of the thrust?"
How about modeling it in meep? We have the frustum dimensions for the Q-thruster. I believe you can do a loop well enough.

Shell

Added a pic of the loop
« Last Edit: 10/10/2015 01:48 PM by SeeShells »

Tags: