Author Topic: EM Drive Developments - related to space flight applications - Thread 5  (Read 973994 times)

Offline xexorian

  • Member
  • Posts: 3
  • USA
  • Liked: 0
  • Likes Given: 0
Technical thoughts out loud - so this electronic frequency lock to resonance is bothering me a bit. As I visualize the setup, it becomes more expensive, complex and heavier.

As a possible solution, was thinking to go simple...rather than more precise, go less.

Mag sprays rf, pulsed. Stop pulsing with new power supply. But, modify mag for sweep. Spray a bandwidth of swept rf, bound to hit resonance at some point as resonance slowly changes due to thermal changes.

Comments welcomed...

On my way home from latest rad treatment. Will then post simple filtered full wave mod to existing maggie 1/2 wave non filtered pwr supply. Will allow fullly variable DC while maintaining fixed AC heater voltage.

I had a chance to chat with a electronics buyer for Lockheed at an info session tonight who seemed to know quite a bit about the EM Drive. He started in Aerospace, then MS in electrical, but I didn't get a complete background... His stance: a magnetron is too dirty, imprecise, and difficult to control to make it worthwhile for the application. He thought even circulators wouldn't constrict the bandwidth enough to supply the cavity you're looking for while maintaining a reasonable vswr. Not exactly what anyone wants to hear, but thought it was worth mentioning...

But the reason a magnetron has apparently yielded such higher efficiencies still perplexes me. Also the reasoning behind the dielectric requirement with an amplifier...
I know I keep bringing these back up but I feel like those two differences are key to understanding the phenomenon. Maybe I should be desinging an amplifier experiment to focus on that factor in particular; what thickness of dielectric is ideal and WHY?

Shawyer did use dielectrics in his 2002 Experimental EMDrive but abandoned dielectrics in 2004. His Demonstrator and Flight Thruster EMDrives are dielectric free plus both use spherical end plates.

The Flight Thruster uses active narrow band solid state + TWTA generation & electronic freq tracking and no mechanical tuning, while the Experimental used mechanical tuning with fixed maggie freq and the Demonstrator used both maggie freq adjustment and mechanical tuning.

As far as I know, SPR currently use solid state Rf gen with active best freq tracking and no mechanical resonance tuning.

BTW I agree with the Lockheed buyer. That is why I have gone pure solid state using a programmable 1kHz freq stepper Rf gen and a 500mHz to 2.5gHz wide band 100w Rf amp.

What's the differences between "Solid-State RF" and "Magnetron" ? Can the SSRF scale upto the KW/MW range? Does one have a finer frequency tuning than the other? What is the cost difference? How would this change the design? Does SSRF require different wave guides into a cavity?

Assuming you could make "Approximately" = EmDrive cavities in thrust, this is the design I had in mind for vector control, if pulsing the 'engines' on and off very fast did not reduce or increase vector thrust in a specific direction, I also opted for this design since I lack a clearer understanding of the engineering required to create a 360 degree enclosed spherical chamber to house an EmDrive component and point it in any given direction.

edit:
Here was my concept of it's usage back in 2004 I came up with (assuming it can actually produce lots of thrust, eventually):


theoretically speaking, would this be possible, or work? I make a few assumptions, like the fact that the emdrives would remain ON at all times (I know this sounds dumb), or at least, enough of them to maintain the craft's real 3 dimensional position in whatever environment it is situated in. Turning it off would require landing and I am assuming warming up/resonating the drives/other technical hurdles.

Assuming a setup like this would or could work to control thrust (by effectively nullifying it's own thrust vectors physically adjusting each drive's angle and direction) one could probably build some really [email protected]$$ space-based robots to mine rocks with something like this and take it back to the ISS or a mining space station for processing located near or in LEO, then use lift designs to take it to Earth.
« Last Edit: 10/08/2015 01:13 PM by xexorian »

Offline rfmwguy

  • EmDrive Builder (retired)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2166
  • Liked: 2684
  • Likes Given: 1124
Attached is the patent that cleans up the magnetron "spray". It simply adds 4 magnets to the radome (top) side circular magnet. It disrupts the field and presents a narrow band signal. This is the first step in my Phase II build, cleaning up that maggie. Next step after that...electronically variable center freq (wish me luck on that one).
« Last Edit: 10/08/2015 02:01 PM by rfmwguy »

Offline SeeShells

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2380
  • Every action there's a reaction we try to grasp.
  • United States
  • Liked: 3110
  • Likes Given: 2671
A side note- is there any known reason why Dr. Rodal has disappeared? I actually miss his posts, they were always helpful to clarify ongoing work.

I asked this question a few days ago, http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=38203.msg1431110#msg1431110

The best answer I got was "He is here, he is fine",
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=38203.msg1431246#msg1431246

Most of us know Dr. Rodel does consulting work and also the stock markets for a living. He is easy to lookup and has a quite impressive history. Plus we all know from working with him here he is one of a kind and very very good at what he does.

I PMed him right after he went quiet and he replied he was working the stock markets and very very busy. Knowing the markets and how much flux they are in right now it's an ideal time to make a killing, if you know what your doing.  I for one have no doubt he is pillaging the markets. The man is very sharp!

If If Dr.Rodel is out doing what he needs to be doing to make a living, good for him and if it means for him to be quiet here to get-er done, then all I can say is I'll support him as he has supported us. Give em hell Dr. Rodel and make gazzilions!

We should all do the same and give him the space he needs and best wishes.

Shell


Offline SeeShells

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2380
  • Every action there's a reaction we try to grasp.
  • United States
  • Liked: 3110
  • Likes Given: 2671
A side note- is there any known reason why Dr. Rodal has disappeared? I actually miss his posts, they were always helpful to clarify ongoing work.

I asked this question a few days ago, http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=38203.msg1431110#msg1431110

The best answer I got was "He is here, he is fine",
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=38203.msg1431246#msg1431246

I would not worry too much. I think dr Rodal has his good reasons not to communicate, although he clearly has the possibility to do so, simply because he keeps following these posts, as we can observe from his topic "likes".

Knowing that dr.Rodal has his own engineering consultancy business, I would not be surprised he signed an NDA that prohibits any form of related communication.

It's a shot in the dark and I'm the only one to blame for the assumption that follows, but considering his expertise demonstrated inhere and his previous collaboration with some ppl, my wild and outlandish guess is that he is currently, somehow, involved with the Eaglework research or any related paper that might be released in the future.

sometimes, silence says as much as complete phrases...

If dr Rodal does not take time to say "sorry guys/girls, I'm busy, you'll have to do it a few weeks without me" but still finds time to read and like topics on this forum, then it's clear to me that it is not a matter of not being able, but rather of not being allowed to say anything.
If an NDA was signed, then he would simply not be allowed to continue his work here on the forum, as it would undoubtedly overlap with his non-public activities...

so...Really, I do not think we should worry.. on the contrary...
Both thumbs up..."way to go , doc!"  and tell us all about it in a few months... 8)

Again...it is all speculation as nothing is confirmed...it's just a possible explanation, one of many.....
Shell and I were joking about nsf-1701 accidentally beaming him into an alternate dimension, but I believe work is the likely cause. Since he's been reported to be ok, doesn't matter why...doc will be back when he can.

Until then, let's bug shell for some more assembly pics  ;D
Heehee I get some pics, sorry I know I'm bad at it. ;D

Had a great day yesterday, birthday, seeing a dear old friend (her birthday is the same as mine) and getting the final sheets of copper from the water jet company. Nice dinner with some adult beverages... came home and crashed.  :o

Today and for the next several weeks or more I'm going to be quite busy, I'll post some pics but don't expect a lot of chatter. I have a good friend who worked with me in the past in my business. He's a fine engineering tech, visiting for a bit and will be helping. I'll feed him burnt steaks and and a cold brew and he will be quite happy.  :P

I've a lot of loose ends to tie up on the build and I want to get-er done and get it fired up!!!

There has been heat as to me taking my time. Even though I'm double checking, triple checking this build and in one case ripping it all down to rebuild it all again. Realize this just isn't a simple test to determine if I get thrust, it is a serious plan to pick apart this drive bit by bit piece by piece to gain as much useful information as I can in a DYI build as can be done. If I get thrust then it gets fine tuned to see what it takes to get more, if I get none that I want to know why.

I refuse to let it stop at just getting a little force generation (or not) and stand back and admire it, that's not good enough, not even close. There is a schedule of testing events that need to happen for data to profile this device. I've been working towards this for months. Now will come the real work and the real fun. . . for all of us.

With everyone's help here I'm starting out with a solid engineered drive that has a unbelievable Q of over 11 Billion (crazy isn't it?). The ability to test in several different orientations. Test accelerations and static pressures. To limit thermal issues as much as can be with out a vacuum chamber and be configurable to several different methods of cavity injection.

So wish me luck, I'm going to be starting and hopefully reinventing fire...

Shell

Offline SeeShells

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2380
  • Every action there's a reaction we try to grasp.
  • United States
  • Liked: 3110
  • Likes Given: 2671
Technical thoughts out loud - so this electronic frequency lock to resonance is bothering me a bit. As I visualize the setup, it becomes more expensive, complex and heavier.

As a possible solution, was thinking to go simple...rather than more precise, go less.

Mag sprays rf, pulsed. Stop pulsing with new power supply. But, modify mag for sweep. Spray a bandwidth of swept rf, bound to hit resonance at some point as resonance slowly changes due to thermal changes.

Comments welcomed...

On my way home from latest rad treatment. Will then post simple filtered full wave mod to existing maggie 1/2 wave non filtered pwr supply. Will allow fullly variable DC while maintaining fixed AC heater voltage.

I had a chance to chat with a electronics buyer for Lockheed at an info session tonight who seemed to know quite a bit about the EM Drive. He started in Aerospace, then MS in electrical, but I didn't get a complete background... His stance: a magnetron is too dirty, imprecise, and difficult to control to make it worthwhile for the application. He thought even circulators wouldn't constrict the bandwidth enough to supply the cavity you're looking for while maintaining a reasonable vswr. Not exactly what anyone wants to hear, but thought it was worth mentioning...

But the reason a magnetron has apparently yielded such higher efficiencies still perplexes me. Also the reasoning behind the dielectric requirement with an amplifier...
I know I keep bringing these back up but I feel like those two differences are key to understanding the phenomenon. Maybe I should be desinging an amplifier experiment to focus on that factor in particular; what thickness of dielectric is ideal and WHY?
The magnetron works because it does have a very wide bandwidth and as the cavity deforms from heat it simply uses another one of the harmonics to lock in the bandwidth.
Shell

Offline SeeShells

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2380
  • Every action there's a reaction we try to grasp.
  • United States
  • Liked: 3110
  • Likes Given: 2671
Attached is the patent that cleans up the magnetron "spray". It simply adds 4 magnets to the radome (top) side circular magnet. It disrupts the field and presents a narrow band signal. This is the first step in my Phase II build, cleaning up that maggie. Next step after that...electronically variable center freq (wish me luck on that one).

Yep, that's it! As I'm going down the posts your's was next, was going to post this but your way fast rfmwguy. This is the same one I've been looking at and what seems to work. I'm going to SA mine to death as it's driven by a inverter and the output will be quite different than a chopped percentage of on off, post the results when I get them.  Great find.

Shell

Had a great day yesterday, birthday, seeing a dear old friend (her birthday is the same as mine) and getting the final sheets of copper from the water jet company. Nice dinner with some adult beverages... came home and crashed.  :o


Happy Birthday SeeShell and Good Luck!

Offline zellerium

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 172
  • Pittsburgh, PA
  • Liked: 283
  • Likes Given: 402
Technical thoughts out loud - so this electronic frequency lock to resonance is bothering me a bit. As I visualize the setup, it becomes more expensive, complex and heavier.

As a possible solution, was thinking to go simple...rather than more precise, go less.

Mag sprays rf, pulsed. Stop pulsing with new power supply. But, modify mag for sweep. Spray a bandwidth of swept rf, bound to hit resonance at some point as resonance slowly changes due to thermal changes.

Comments welcomed...

On my way home from latest rad treatment. Will then post simple filtered full wave mod to existing maggie 1/2 wave non filtered pwr supply. Will allow fullly variable DC while maintaining fixed AC heater voltage.

I had a chance to chat with a electronics buyer for Lockheed at an info session tonight who seemed to know quite a bit about the EM Drive. He started in Aerospace, then MS in electrical, but I didn't get a complete background... His stance: a magnetron is too dirty, imprecise, and difficult to control to make it worthwhile for the application. He thought even circulators wouldn't constrict the bandwidth enough to supply the cavity you're looking for while maintaining a reasonable vswr. Not exactly what anyone wants to hear, but thought it was worth mentioning...

But the reason a magnetron has apparently yielded such higher efficiencies still perplexes me. Also the reasoning behind the dielectric requirement with an amplifier...
I know I keep bringing these back up but I feel like those two differences are key to understanding the phenomenon. Maybe I should be desinging an amplifier experiment to focus on that factor in particular; what thickness of dielectric is ideal and WHY?

Shawyer did use dielectrics in his 2002 Experimental EMDrive but abandoned dielectrics in 2004. His Demonstrator and Flight Thruster EMDrives are dielectric free plus both use spherical end plates.

The Flight Thruster uses active narrow band solid state + TWTA generation & electronic freq tracking and no mechanical tuning, while the Experimental used mechanical tuning with fixed maggie freq and the Demonstrator used both maggie freq adjustment and mechanical tuning.

As far as I know, SPR currently use solid state Rf gen with active best freq tracking and no mechanical resonance tuning.

BTW I agree with the Lockheed buyer. That is why I have gone pure solid state using a programmable 1kHz freq stepper Rf gen and a 500mHz to 2.5gHz wide band 100w Rf amp.

That seems like the ideal setup, especially when considering actually putting this system on a spacecraft. Satellites already use ss amps for comms so its only a matter of diverting the power that's already there.

So Mr. Traveller, in your opinion, was EW finding (that a dielectric is required for an amplifier) a fluke? Were they using too little power, or was it a matter of the frustum shape? (flat ends vs spherical ends)

Also, didn't Boeing purchase the flight thruster?

Offline rfmwguy

  • EmDrive Builder (retired)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2166
  • Liked: 2684
  • Likes Given: 1124
Happy Birthday Shell!

Offline SeeShells

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2380
  • Every action there's a reaction we try to grasp.
  • United States
  • Liked: 3110
  • Likes Given: 2671
Happy Birthday Shell!

AHHHH! Whoot Whoot Whoot!!!!

Thanks!

Shell

Offline TheTraveller

That seems like the ideal setup, especially when considering actually putting this system on a spacecraft. Satellites already use ss amps for comms so its only a matter of diverting the power that's already there.

So Mr. Traveller, in your opinion, was EW finding (that a dielectric is required for an amplifier) a fluke? Were they using too little power, or was it a matter of the frustum shape? (flat ends vs spherical ends)

Also, didn't Boeing purchase the flight thruster?

Shawyer used dielectrics for years. His 1st 2 patents used dielectrics. He abandoned using them around 2003, a decade before Eagleworks started using them.

I have been told, by a source I fully believe, that Boeing do indeed have a SPR Flight Thruster.

As for the 100uN of Force achieved by EW at around 80Ws, there may be many reasons for such a low result.

Do hope EWs get the chance to try to gen Force without the dielectric. With their existing copper frustum, they should get TE013 resonance around 2.66ghz and for TE012 around 2.33ghz. But they will need to use a TE mode excitation antenna as their existing antenna is designed to excite TM mode.
It Is Time For The EmDrive To Come Out Of The Shadows

Offline TheTraveller

Happy Birthday Shell!

AHHHH! Whoot Whoot Whoot!!!!

Thanks!

Shell

Yes indeed, Happy Birthday Shell. May you enjoy many more.
It Is Time For The EmDrive To Come Out Of The Shadows

Offline Notsosureofit

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 671
  • Liked: 731
  • Likes Given: 1431
FYI:

TESTS OF DISCRETE SPACE-TIME SYMMETRIES


http://pdg.lbl.gov/2015/tables/rpp2015-conservation-laws.pdf


Happy Birthday Shell !!

Offline SeeShells

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2380
  • Every action there's a reaction we try to grasp.
  • United States
  • Liked: 3110
  • Likes Given: 2671
FYI:

TESTS OF DISCRETE SPACE-TIME SYMMETRIES


http://pdg.lbl.gov/2015/tables/rpp2015-conservation-laws.pdf


Happy Birthday Shell !!
Nice! Thanks! Building and having some fun in the shop! I love this work!

Shell

Offline rfmwguy

  • EmDrive Builder (retired)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2166
  • Liked: 2684
  • Likes Given: 1124
Tangent Time - While there's a bit of a lull in data & news, thought I'd muse for a while on some of the other interesting things I've done in the past.

I did the book writing thing a few years ago with a fiction and non-fiction book, which was a lot of fun...a lot of work, but fun. I learned that the publishing industry loves celebrity authors, even though those authors usually farm aout their books to ghost or staff writers.

So, you can imagine my thoughts about writing a suspenseful (science) fiction book about the Emdrive...Don't worry, I have nowhere near the time.  ;)

http://www.amazon.com/A.D.-Distler/e/B004SRQDXO/

Offline CW

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 188
  • Germany
  • Liked: 141
  • Likes Given: 51
(...)

Most of us know Dr. Rodel does consulting work and also the stock markets for a living. He is easy to lookup and has a quite impressive history. Plus we all know from working with him here he is one of a kind and very very good at what he does.

I PMed him right after he went quiet and he replied he was working the stock markets and very very busy. Knowing the markets and how much flux they are in right now it's an ideal time to make a killing, if you know what your doing.  I for one have no doubt he is pillaging the markets. The man is very sharp!

If If Dr.Rodel is out doing what he needs to be doing to make a living, good for him and if it means for him to be quiet here to get-er done, then all I can say is I'll support him as he has supported us. Give em hell Dr. Rodel and make gazzilions!

We should all do the same and give him the space he needs and best wishes.

Shell

Dear Shell,

just one absolutely well-meaning remark (because you consistently get it wrong).. the good doctor's name is Rodal, not Rodel. Maybe the doc is earning tons of money, so there can be better and more EM-Drive research?

Happy birthday & BR ;)
« Last Edit: 10/08/2015 09:00 PM by CW »
Reality is weirder than fiction

Offline SeeShells

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2380
  • Every action there's a reaction we try to grasp.
  • United States
  • Liked: 3110
  • Likes Given: 2671
(...)

Most of us know Dr. Rodel does consulting work and also the stock markets for a living. He is easy to lookup and has a quite impressive history. Plus we all know from working with him here he is one of a kind and very very good at what he does.

I PMed him right after he went quiet and he replied he was working the stock markets and very very busy. Knowing the markets and how much flux they are in right now it's an ideal time to make a killing, if you know what your doing.  I for one have no doubt he is pillaging the markets. The man is very sharp!

If If Dr.Rodel is out doing what he needs to be doing to make a living, good for him and if it means for him to be quiet here to get-er done, then all I can say is I'll support him as he has supported us. Give em hell Dr. Rodel and make gazzilions!

We should all do the same and give him the space he needs and best wishes.

Shell

Dear Shell,

just one absolutely well-meaning remark (because you consistently get it wrong).. the good doctor's name is Rodal, not Rodel. Maybe the doc is earning tons of money, so there can be better and more EM-Drive research?

Happy birthday & BR ;)

I do, and I know I've messed up the fine Doctor's name before, no mean intent at all, just me being air head me.

Thank you for the happy birthday.

Shell

Added, Geez that makes me feel very bad. Sorry Dr. Rodal.
« Last Edit: 10/08/2015 10:58 PM by SeeShells »

Offline rfmwguy

  • EmDrive Builder (retired)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2166
  • Liked: 2684
  • Likes Given: 1124
500 Downloads on the NSF-1701 Phase I Test Report from this thread and last.

Moral of the story...people are still interested in the emdrive concept and they are starving for information.

Does not look like Cannae, Tajmar, Shawyer or Yang have anything new to report. Still have hopes that EW is busy at it from the rumors I heard last year.

If anybody else finds anything out there, be sure to post it here.


Offline SeeShells

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2380
  • Every action there's a reaction we try to grasp.
  • United States
  • Liked: 3110
  • Likes Given: 2671
500 Downloads on the NSF-1701 Phase I Test Report from this thread and last.

Moral of the story...people are still interested in the emdrive concept and they are starving for information.

Does not look like Cannae, Tajmar, Shawyer or Yang have anything new to report. Still have hopes that EW is busy at it from the rumors I heard last year.

If anybody else finds anything out there, be sure to post it here.

Haven't heard much from this side other than rumors that something might be happening. Who knows what it will be.

Back at it... still working at it.

Shell

Offline tchernik

  • Full Member
  • **
  • Posts: 273
  • Liked: 315
  • Likes Given: 638
500 Downloads on the NSF-1701 Phase I Test Report from this thread and last.

Moral of the story...people are still interested in the emdrive concept and they are starving for information.

Does not look like Cannae, Tajmar, Shawyer or Yang have anything new to report. Still have hopes that EW is busy at it from the rumors I heard last year.

If anybody else finds anything out there, be sure to post it here.

Haven't heard much from this side other than rumors that something might be happening. Who knows what it will be.

Back at it... still working at it.

Shell

Everybody is so tight lipped, that it's somewhat disquieting, like the calm before the storm.

Hopefully these happenings include EagleWorks proving their point to the NASA's internal review boards, and getting more appropriate funding, which could result in a news-worthy paper by end of the year.

Or maybe Dr. Tajmar and his diligent Ph.D. students have continued doing experiments, with much better results by now.

Well, that's maybe just me and my child-like desires to see this work, but this calm is indeed odd.

Tags: