SpaceX and space-relevant hyperloop updates and discussion thread

[go4mars]

Let's keep this thread tidy and not bug Chris by going overly into discussion about non-SpaceX related aspects of Elon's hyperloop program.

The following replies didn't seem appropriate on the Boeing fusion jet thread, hence this one.

You really think there's a secret agenda behind the hyperloop competition?  You think it's a cover to work on high-altitude electric aircraft?

Yes, and in part yes.

There's no reason whatsoever to say it's about hyperloop if it's actually about aircraft, and plenty of reasons not to, starting with the fact that having a competition for something related but not the same as what you actually want is never going to be as effective as having a competition for what you already want.

I think hyperloop is interesting and worth working on in its own right.  And yes, it will attract talent. But Elon would not waste time on it unless it directly supported his Mars architecture.  So how does hyperloop tech support the Mars architecture?

Several ways -
1)  Governing bodies will only become comfortable allowing widespread VTVL when the safety statistics can be demonstrated.  The worldwide VTVL launch infrastructure play isn't just orbital rockets, it's also high-speed intercontinental travel.  Once again the Terran masses support the Martian's antecedent infrastructure.  Elon is a pilot, his dad was a pilot, and Elon has mused for almost 2 decades about advancing airline technology by 3 or 4 generations rather than little iterations.  Plus Steve Jurvetson and Kimbal Musk are on the SpaceX board - and I know they want to see these happen.        But that point 1 is only peripherally related to the Mars architecture.

2)  The pods will need to keep people sealed in and breathing happy in external Mars-like atmospheric pressure.  Obviously useful in de-risking similar systems for Mars.
3)  The electric propulsion modules will be high-speed electric fans that allow supersonic travel in extremely rarefied atmosphere.  Obviously useful hopper technology on a planet with no roads.  The payload will increase even further in a scenario of broadcast power or laser-photovoltaics or new form of Uber-Capacitor/battery.  Which could be developed and de-risked on Earth in various iterations in hyperloop tubes and at about 80,000 feet altitude. 
4)  Technology level and logistical comfort.  It would be a lot harder to fund the development of the Mars-relevant vehicles or sell those vehicles to customers, unless there is analogy on Earth that funders/customers/design engineers can draw from.  The Unfinalized Flying Objects for the Martians will be much more realizable if this path is taken.  In my opinion. 

[DigitalMan]

I don't think HyperLoop has anything to do with Mars, I think it was put forward in hopes of avoiding California traffic.

[Prober]

I don't think HyperLoop has anything to do with Mars, I think it was put forward in hopes of avoiding California traffic.

Its more gov. money....end of story

[Owlon]

I don't think HyperLoop has anything to do with Mars, I think it was put forward in hopes of avoiding California traffic.

Its more gov. money....end of story

Elon Musk had been pretty clear in multiple statements that he is not currently or planning to be personally involved in commercializing the hyperloop. He had said that he might get involved (though Tesla, I believe) if there was no movement on it within several years, but there are now multiple companies working on it. SpaceX is only really involved through a  self-funded engineering design competition that has the ever-so-convenient bonus of filtering out engineers that are a great fit for either of his companies.

[beancounter]

I don't think HyperLoop has anything to do with Mars, I think it was put forward in hopes of avoiding California traffic.

Its more gov. money....end of story

How do you arrive at this conclusion?  Just asking!
Cheers

[R7]

Here's a transcript of the meeting where SpaceX involvement was decided:

Elon: Hyperloop needs a boost, suggestions?

Minion: Lets hold a competition for students.

Elon: Excellent, make it happen.

Minion: Sir, which company should host it?

Elon: Eeny, meeny, miny, mo... SpaceX.

[JasonAW3]

Let's be honest, Amtrak, the way it is currently run, is a mess.

     Current railroad companies would much prefer that Amtrak didn't use the same rail system as they do.  Currently, long distance passenger rail service is effectively dying, primarily due to cost and speed of service.

     By establishing a seperate, high speed long, distance mass transit system, passenger rail service would explode.

     By enclosing the system in a tube, accidental collisions cease completely.  By raising it above ground, ground traffic interference ceases.

     By mostly depressurizing the tube in which the train travels, you allow the train to travel as speeds faster than normal aircraft.  Also, by depressurizing the tube, accidental fires are minimized due to lack of oxygen.

     By suspending the train above the inside of the tube magnetically, you avoid mechanical wear and tear as well as avoiding potentile derailment scenerios.

      By using the tubes upper surface for solar panels, you make the entire system both self powering as well as a conduit that can be used for power distribution.

      As to it's application for SpaceX?  Add magnetic coils around the tube, elevate same at a fourty-five degree angle, place a break away lid on the upper end, and you have a pretty good magnetic linear accelerator that could act as a first stage for putting payloads into orbit even cheaper tham SpaceX is doing now.  Using such a system on Mars or the Moon would allow a fully fueled space craft to launch into orbit using only a minimal amount of fuel to circularize the orbit.   Remember, getting to orbit takes most of the fuel required to get anywhere in space.

[rickyramjet]

Hyperloop has nothing to do with Mars.  It's a sci-fi-ish idea that Elon got from one of his many science fiction novels he read (probably).  Transportation systems are developed based on need and on existing infrastructure to develop a given system.  Looking at the development of transportation systems on Earth: Steam ships and steam powered locomotives were fine for a long time.  The transcontinental railroad was finished in 1869.  The population of the Earth was roughly 2 billion people at the time.  And obviously transportation systems on Mars will be much different, but there will be no need for 800 mph systems for a very very long time.  If ever.  Assuming we even establish a self sustaining colony on Mars, transport will probably be slow, big lumbering vehicles providing life support and able to traverse minimally improved "dirt" roads.  In other words, a bulldozer moved the big rocks out of the way.  My 2 cents!

[quanthasaquality]

I don't think HyperLoop has anything to do with Mars, I think it was put forward in hopes of avoiding California traffic.

As such, I can see the logic in a space related forum prohibiting discussion of hyperloop. I've already seen a few hyperloop threads vanish. Hyperloop discussion would be better suited elsewhere. http://www.skyscrapercity.com/  for big buildings and big cities, and transportation between cities, such as a hypothetical hyperloop.

Let's be honest, Amtrak, the way it is currently run, is a mess.

Amtrak is the way it is, in part because many rural state senators, want to keep the trains running, just like the "Essential Air Service". But, this is not a ground transportation forum.

[Nomadd]

 If a Hyperloop reached orbital velocity, would it be related?

[sanman]

Heh, this Hyperloop-for-Mars notion seems to be gaining traction in the media:

http://www.houstonchronicle.com/local/gray-matters/article/Elon-Musk-will-test-a-superfast-train-inTexas-6381452.php

[jzjzjzj]

     [..]
     By suspending the train above the inside of the tube magnetically, you avoid mechanical wear and tear as well as avoiding potentile derailment scenerios.
     [..]

[..] capsules ride on an air cushion [..]

[BusterSky]

      As to it's application for SpaceX?  Add magnetic coils around the tube, elevate same at a fourty-five degree angle, place a break away lid on the upper lid, and you have a pretty good magnetic linear accelerator that could act as a first stage for putting payloads into orbit even cheaper tham SpaceX is doing now.  Using such a system on Mars or the Moon would allow a fully fueled space craft to launch into orbit using only a minimal amount of fuel to circularize the orbit.   Remember, getting to orbit takes most of the fuel required to get anywhere in space.

But that wouldn't be possible right ? To reach sufficient speed you would need the launch track to be enormously long and enourmously high, or so wikipedia says 2000 km long and 80 km high 

[oldAtlas_Eguy]

      As to it's application for SpaceX?  Add magnetic coils around the tube, elevate same at a fourty-five degree angle, place a break away lid on the upper lid, and you have a pretty good magnetic linear accelerator that could act as a first stage for putting payloads into orbit even cheaper tham SpaceX is doing now.  Using such a system on Mars or the Moon would allow a fully fueled space craft to launch into orbit using only a minimal amount of fuel to circularize the orbit.   Remember, getting to orbit takes most of the fuel required to get anywhere in space.

But that wouldn't be possible right ? To reach sufficient speed you would need the launch track to be enormously long and enourmously high, or so wikipedia says 2000 km long and 80 km high 

At a 3g acceleration, in order to be a replacement for a first stage (3km/s Delta V) the tube would need to be 51km long. The vehicle being accelerated would be a little larger than a current LV US and more streamlined as well as sporting wings and probably a scramjet to increase speed even more as it travels up through the rest of the atmosphere to up to 4-5km/s before the rocket engines take over for the remainder of the 8.6km/s needed to reach orbit.

A 3km high mountain next to a near sea level plain in which it is possible to have a gentle curve from the horizontal to a high upward angle >60 degrees in which most of the tube is on the plain and only the last 5-10 km is the curve and trip up the mountain. This also helps in lowering the power requirements for acceleration since only the last part needs to overcome earths gravity to maintain the 3g acceleration.

[Kansan52]

Let's see, destroy portions of untouched environment for a slower more expensive system or make a leap to a faster system with less environmental impact at less cost. High Speed Rail vs Hyperloop.

Elon believes in creating a better world. He believes Space X and Mars do that. He believes Telsa and recharging stations do that. Even his work with Solar City and uber batteries does that.

Plus, if he believes synergies coming to and from Hyperloop and his other projects will help each succeed and therefore help us, he will do everything he can to accomplish Hyperloop.

IMHO, batteries and solar power is the link among them and Mars.

[oldAtlas_Eguy]

Let's see, destroy portions of untouched environment for a slower more expensive system or make a leap to a faster system with less environmental impact at less cost. High Speed Rail vs Hyperloop.

Elon believes in creating a better world. He believes Space X and Mars do that. He believes Telsa and recharging stations do that. Even his work with Solar City and uber batteries does that.

Plus, if he believes synergies coming to and from Hyperloop and his other projects will help each succeed and therefore help us, he will do everything he can to accomplish Hyperloop.

IMHO, batteries and solar power is the link among them and Mars.

Talking about batteries the automotive temp range is -40C to 125C very close to that of the Mil spec range of -55C to 125C. If the Tesla batteries are made to not only automotive specs but meet or exceed Mil specs then these batteries are useful for space applications as well. One battery design for all applications: Automotive, Aeronautical, Home, Industry, Military, and Space. By having one battery design and one production line the batteries are produced at cheaper costs because of the larger quantities due to be used not only for the Tesla cars but eventually a larger quantity in the other industry areas combined.

Yes, using the combined products from other EM businesses can produce lower development and operational costs, For hyperloop this would be using Tesla batteries, Solar city power tech, and SpaceX hyper-velocity computer models for atmospheric flight of LV shapes.

[spacenut]

The Hyperloop idea can be built on existing interstate highway mediums or along the sides.  No new areas would have to be destroyed, trees cuts, etc. to build the hyperloop system.  Hyperloop's can also be constructed on Mars between various colony cities or twos.  This would avoid dust and pressure-depressurization from a wheeled vehicle. 

[Lee Jay]

The Hyperloop idea can be built on existing interstate highway mediums or along the sides.

How would you like to go around a corner designed for 55mph, at 550mph?  Remember, g-forces go up with velocity squared.

EDIT:  Just looked it up.  Highway curves are generally designed for a g-load of 0.28g.  So, at 10 times the velocity, that's 28g's.  Hmmm.....don't think so.

[JasonAW3]

If a Hyperloop reached orbital velocity, would it be related?

     You really wouldn't want to reach obital velocity even in the Hyperloop tube.  A pressure leak would almost act as a brick wall to a hypersonic tube train.

     At full orbital velocity?

     You'd pancake the entire train.  Not very conducive to the passengers good health.

[spacenut]

The interstate highway system was designed in the 1950's for 90 mph, not 55 mph.  The corners could be cut via crossing the road.  Also, If you are going between towns in the East, one wouldn't go 700mph, but probably 200-300mph.  Popular science had some ideas in the early 1970's for 300 mph elevated trains along the interstate system.  In the real world, It would not replace planes, nor automobiles.  We have a speed-transportation-time gap between 70 mph and 600mph taking longer than 2 hours, so 300 mph would be right in the middle.  It would fill the gap that puddle hopper planes fill now.  At least that is the way I see it.  Yes, across the plains states or desert, 600 mph is possible, but we have too many people who drive all day between cities that are 200-300 miles away for business trips, thus the interstate highway system is full of vehicles.  I drove 150 miles for many many business trips from where I was located to a larger city where the meetings were held.  Took me 2-1/2-3 hours each way, depending on traffic.  I see hyperloop as a gap filler, not replacing planes for trips taking longer than two hours.  I could have taken this trip in 30-45 minutes with a hyperloop.  I worked normally 8-5 with an hour for lunch.  Meetings were 9am and usually lasted to 3 or 4pm.  So, I had to leave home at about 6am, and get home round 7pm.  That was for a long day.  With a hyperloop, I could have stayed within my normal 8-5pm.