Eutelsat OneWeb: Constellation - General Thread

[DistantTemple]

This is also representative of the accuracy and tennor of this paper:

The committee chair added: "Only today, SpaceX has put up a rival satellite capability programme to OneWeb.

"NASA and the American Government have been pumping billions into getting the rival SpaceX cartel in orbit.

although they are the words of the politician David Morris, and not the paper.

Worryingly this politician is lying to the British Public on the BBC, about SpaceX.

Personally I hope Some good comes of One Web and the recent acquisition, despite very suspect explanations given for the Government's decisions, and their intenetions.

[ncb1397]

Our deal with One Web puts the UK at the forefront of the space race.

https://twitter.com/davidmorrisml/status/1296046245904101377

From the article:
"If we can produce two satellites a day, which is phenomenal and no other facility can do that in the world, we'll be world leaders.

I guess they missed that SpaceX is currently producing 120 satellites a month.

If they launch 60 per month and are producing 120 per month, there must be a warehouse full of the things.

[high road]

oh, there's also

Mr Morris continued: "If you look at the technology pound for pound, SpaceX are trying to copy what we've actually devised with OneWeb.

The committee chair added: "Only today, SpaceX has put up a rival satellite capability programme to OneWeb.

I think SpaceX 'trying' puts them quite a bit ahead. Although I don't know when Starlink would specifically be able to cover Canada and Alaska. Seems like they chose that because of its relation to Brexit rather than good business sense.

"NASA and the American Government have been pumping billions into getting the rival SpaceX cartel in orbit.

ugh

Business Secretary Alok Sharma said it would help deliver the "first UK sovereign space capability".

I though there was an Indian co-investor? Doesn't really count as sovereign, does it?

If there's 'Brexit' in the title what follows is usually mostly fictional.

Edit: sorry, I did a Bezos. (Started my post before the two above and took too long)

[gongora]

[Space News] Bharti Enterprises asks ISRO for help developing OneWeb user terminals

Test services will start in late 2021 once OneWeb’s coverage extends over arctic regions and down to northern European countries, Mittal said.

With that coverage, “we will have started to test a lot of ground and user terminals,” Mittal said. “It is here we would like to see ISRO’s hand and support in work to develop user terminals which cater to the needs of Indian requirements.”

constellation size hasn't changed
service in early 2022
Bharti has demonstrated cars connected to OneWeb

[ChrisWilson68]

Has there been a new launch schedule issued since the bankruptcy purchase?  It would be interesting to see when the rest of the launches are planned and on which vehicles.

Maybe they're still renegotiating the launch contracts.  Pre-bankruptcy launch contracts probably don't mean much now.

[gongora]

Has there been a new launch schedule issued since the bankruptcy purchase?  It would be interesting to see when the rest of the launches are planned and on which vehicles.

Maybe they're still renegotiating the launch contracts.  Pre-bankruptcy launch contracts probably don't mean much now.

I haven't seen anything.  I'm guessing the launch contract doesn't end up changing a whole lot, maybe they can negotiate it down a little but I expect the Soyuz rides to continue.  Bankruptcy docs seemed to say a number of flights were already paid for.

[soltasto]

I would bet on them launching on the already contracted rockets and gradually switch to Indian and UK launchers.

[DistantTemple]

I would bet on them launching on the already contracted rockets and gradually switch to Indian and UK launchers.

UK launchers? https://www.forbes.com/sites/jonathanocallaghan/2020/06/26/we-have-lift-off--orbital-launches-from-scotland-move-a-step-closer-to-reality-after-planning-application-is-approved/#:~:text=The%20U.K.%20has%20only%20ever,and%20Skyrora%20hope%20to%20achieve.

The U.K. has only ever conducted a single orbital rocket launch, which took place from Australia back in 1971. No rocket has ever been launched to orbit from the U.K. itself before,...

So atm there is no UK launch service.

however the quote finishes with ...

... something both Orbex and Skyrora hope to achieve.

So on the positive side, One web launching their relatively small satellites on Orbex or Skyora etc, from Sutherland in Scotland, could create a UK space industry, and the £500M of takpayer funds would be a useful investment.

The rude and uninformed comments about SpaceX upthread, may indicate a future claim to "national Security" to justify OneWeb (and their launch partners) military satellites,  and a refusal to consider cheaper prices from SpaceX. This will likely help support a UK space industry.

It will be interesting if all this comes together and the recent purchase of OW turns out to be a success for the UK. The UK / One Web may be able to carve out an alternative LEO constellation business that captures military/Gov/security contracts from a range of countries, on claims of being independent of the growing monopoly (in a couple of years) of SpaceX, and of having more control of their payloads and communications without being subject to SpaceX systems, or American access!
Separately
Elon Musk stands strongly for renewable energy, and sweeping away related entrenched interests and systems. (which wholeheartedly agree with) but it threatens interests in the UK. Some influencers of the UK/OneWeb project may well be strongly antagonistic to anything that comes from the Musk stable.

[soltasto]

Yes, by the time they use all the launchers they have contracts with, Orbex or Skyrora might have a vehicle ready. And if they don't, they would still have the Indian launchers available. Of course they might also keep launching on Soyuz if needed, but I think Ariane-6, New Glenn and Launcher One are unlikely to fly more than the few contracted missions.

[ChrisWilson68]

Yes, by the time they use all the launchers they have contracts with, Orbex or Skyrora might have a vehicle ready. And if they don't, they would still have the Indian launchers available. Of course they might also keep launching on Soyuz if needed, but I think Ariane-6, New Glenn and Launcher One are unlikely to fly more than the few contracted missions.

Small launchers are cheaper per launch than the big launchers, but much more expensive per kg launched.

Orbex and Skyrora would be ridiculously expensive ways to launch large constellations.  They would be far more expensive than putting big batches of satellites on a large launcher.

OneWeb's launch costs already put it at a significant disadvantage to SpaceX.  Using these small launchers would just make that disadvantage much, much worse.  They probably wouldn't be able to find funding to launch in such a wasteful way.

[alanr74]

Good if you want to replace 3 or 4 however for whatever reason. 
 
I suspect once they get their first launchers up and running, they may be looking at a larger craft.

[DistantTemple]

Yes, by the time they use all the launchers they have contracts with, Orbex or Skyrora might have a vehicle ready. And if they don't, they would still have the Indian launchers available. Of course they might also keep launching on Soyuz if needed, but I think Ariane-6, New Glenn and Launcher One are unlikely to fly more than the few contracted missions.

Small launchers are cheaper per launch than the big launchers, but much more expensive per kg launched.

Orbex and Skyrora would be ridiculously expensive ways to launch large constellations.  They would be far more expensive than putting big batches of satellites on a large launcher.

OneWeb's launch costs already put it at a significant disadvantage to SpaceX.  Using these small launchers would just make that disadvantage much, much worse.  They probably wouldn't be able to find funding to launch in such a wasteful way.

This is a country that is going it alone, and trying to set up its own space program. Spending money on an expensive launch is generating UK jobs, and giving the readers of the newspaper above a reason to see that the government is successful. The question was never how to access the most cost effective orbital services!

[jstrotha0975]

I don't believe Oneweb is going to be competing with Starlink anymore. It's a Government program now.

[alanr74]

I don't believe Oneweb is going to be competing with Starlink anymore. It's a Government program now.

I suspect it will be competing but it will mean the UK has its own infrastructure, something that the EU has now also mentioned. 
 
Obviously we won't see GPS until the MK2 satellites but having non US secure low latency communications is something the government can use. Bharti obviously now has the means to keep itself as a major player in the mobile world and extend further afield.

For £500Mn it won't break the bank and probably lead to further investment in the space tech arena in the UK, if we start launching satellites also.

[gongora]

I don't believe Oneweb is going to be competing with Starlink anymore. It's a Government program now.

The UK government has 45% of the company, I would guess Bharti does more of the running.  Also, large constellations of satellites this size will never do their deployments on small launchers.  Even constellation replenishment on small launchers will be a niche business at best.

[ChrisWilson68]

Good if you want to replace 3 or 4 however for whatever reason. 

Better to have on-orbit spares so you don't have to do a launch to replace small numbers of satellites that go bad.

I suspect once they get their first launchers up and running, they may be looking at a larger craft.

It would cost an enormous amount to enter the large launch market, and the market is intensely competitive.  I don't know where they'd get that kind of money.

[ChrisWilson68]

Yes, by the time they use all the launchers they have contracts with, Orbex or Skyrora might have a vehicle ready. And if they don't, they would still have the Indian launchers available. Of course they might also keep launching on Soyuz if needed, but I think Ariane-6, New Glenn and Launcher One are unlikely to fly more than the few contracted missions.

Small launchers are cheaper per launch than the big launchers, but much more expensive per kg launched.

Orbex and Skyrora would be ridiculously expensive ways to launch large constellations.  They would be far more expensive than putting big batches of satellites on a large launcher.

OneWeb's launch costs already put it at a significant disadvantage to SpaceX.  Using these small launchers would just make that disadvantage much, much worse.  They probably wouldn't be able to find funding to launch in such a wasteful way.

This is a country that is going it alone, and trying to set up its own space program. Spending money on an expensive launch is generating UK jobs, and giving the readers of the newspaper above a reason to see that the government is successful. The question was never how to access the most cost effective orbital services!

There's a difference between wasting some money for jobs and wasting many billions.  I think the political hit from wasting so much money would be more than the political gain from the jobs.

Anyway, the UK government is only 45% owner.  They can't force a horribly wasteful rise in costs on the other shareholders just for a UK jobs program.

[zubenelgenubi]

Cross-post:

https://ria.ru/20200821/kosmos-1576072315.html
Google translate:

MOSCOW, August 21 - RIA Novosti. The only one launch this year from the Vostochny cosmodrome can be carried out in December, 36 British communication satellites OneWeb are supposed to be put into orbit, a source in the rocket and space industry told RIA Novosti.
Initially, in 2020, five launches were planned from Vostochny - four with OneWeb satellites in April, May, June and July and one with the Meteor-M meteorological spacecraft in November. However, the launches were postponed due to the bankruptcy of OneWeb and the need for additional testing of the "Meteor".
"The launch of the Soyuz-2.1b carrier rocket with the Fregat upper stage and 36 OneWeb satellites is preliminarily planned for December," the source said.

Pre-bankruptcy: Four launches from Vostochniy in April, May, June, July.
Post-bankruptcy: Three launches from Vostochniy in October, November, December.
Now: One launch from Vostochniy in December.

[gongora]

Pre-bankruptcy: Four launches from Vostochniy in April, May, June, July.
Post-bankruptcy: Three launches from Vostochniy in October, November, December.
Now: One launch from Vostochniy in December.

That's really not so bad with a trip through bankruptcy during the year.  When they get into a regular launch cadence is more important than when exactly the next launch happens.

[ChrisWilson68]

Pre-bankruptcy: Four launches from Vostochniy in April, May, June, July.
Post-bankruptcy: Three launches from Vostochniy in October, November, December.
Now: One launch from Vostochniy in December.

That's really not so bad with a trip through bankruptcy during the year.  When they get into a regular launch cadence is more important than when exactly the next launch happens.

I wonder if the December launch will be the beginning of a regular launch cadence or just launching the satellites they have already completed.

My understanding is that they laid off all the people who built the satellites.  Some of them probably moved on to other things, so it will take time to staff up again and train new workers.  Also, the talk was that part of the deal for the UK government stepping in was that production would move from Florida to the UK.  If they really do move production to the UK before restarting production, they'll probably be able to retain even fewer of the old staff and have a much larger issue with staffing up again.  They'll also need to find factory space, move equipment, etc.  All that takes time.