Eutelsat OneWeb: Constellation - General Thread

[Lar]

The private market has the ability to get rid of bad programs ... It was just about to...  And in swept the cavalry.

As usual, eh.

[jak Kennedy]

It seems on paper like a very illogical investment. But as an unemployed UK engineer I'm all for it! With a bit of luck there could be a job in it.

The satellites are built in the US, and the launchers are built in the EU and Russia. Both are already established production lines. About the best UK-bound companies could hope for is the ground terminals purely because production of those does not appear to have started yet.

Except Qualcomm is building the user terminals and several articles state that Greg Wyler self-funded the antennas. It's not clear who controls the IP to any of this.

"OneWeb founder Greg Wyler announced that his self-funded side project, Wafer LLC, has developed a flat, low-power phased-array antenna that could be mass-produced for $15."

https://spacenews.com/wyler-claims-breakthrough-in-low-cost-antenna-for-oneweb-other-satellite-systems/#:~:text=WASHINGTON%20%E2%80%94%20OneWeb%20founder%20Greg%20Wyler,priced%20between%20%24200%20and%20%24300.

http://www.circleid.com/posts/20190210_electronically_steerable_flat_panel_antennas_for_connectivity/

[gongora]

I haven't seen anything lately about that Wyler backed antenna actually coming to market, and OneWeb hasn't mentioned using it.

[russianhalo117]

I haven't seen anything lately about that Wyler backed antenna actually coming to market, and OneWeb hasn't mentioned using it.

Generation 2 sat at the earliest which is a complete design refresh/upgrade. Will it make it to Gen 2 who knows.

[jongoff]

Scott Manley video on OneWeb purchase.

That was a pretty good and even-handed summary. Thanks for sharing!

~Jon

[john smith 19]

That was a pretty good and even-handed summary. Thanks for sharing!

~Jon

I'm not sure where this is going

I don't think anyone does. 

A satellite navigation system makes a lot of sense for  continent sized countries or geographical regions.

Like, the US, China, India or Russia or Europe (as a whole). 

The UK alone? That's just bizarre.  BTW the UK already has a military comms satellite network called "Skynet"

It has been operational since the late 1960's.

[Oli]

This is weird. I didn't see OneWeb as a particularly British company. I don't think there's much to gain from this politically. To the extent OneWeb's financing problems are due to Corona I can understand the rescue, otherwise it seems misguided.

[ncb1397]

Statement from Bharti Enterprises Founder/Chairman...

“OneWeb’s platform will help to reduce the digital divide by providing high speed, low latency broadband access to the poor and hard-to-reach rural areas. A low-earth orbit constellation is the only viable mechanism through which the ‘last billion’ can be connected. As one of the largest telecoms operators in India and Africa, I know what a powerful social and economic enabler this can be,” Mittal said in a statement. The negotiations were led by his son Shravin Bharti Mittal.

https://www.thehindubusinessline.com/info-tech/sunil-mittals-bharti-enterprise-emerges-top-bidder-for-uks-oneweb/article31976975.ece

[john smith 19]

Now this thread has drifted to political bickering, it has lost any utility. Very disappointing.

I would appeal to the moderators, but they appear to be contributing to the OT discussion. I came here to read about OneWeb, not read ideological propaganda.

WRT to the thread title.

How close are OneWeb to IOC? How many more sats have to be launched to get to a minimal working constellation?

What parts of this process can be re-located to the UK, the supposed reason for making this investment?.

How can the constellation be pivoted to offering the navigation services that are also supposed to be a reason for injecting £500m into this venture? Can it be done with a SW fix to the existing satellites, or is this a whole new build?

Obviously any questions about how big a contribution to party funds was made by the owner of the Indian telecomms group that's mostly looking to use it is completely OT for this thread.

[donaldp]

Just to throw some more mud into this already muddy water, I found this quote which seems to refer to possible ISRO involvement:

“Bharti will be leading the effort to deliver the promise of universal broadband connectivity through OneWeb, with active support and participation of the British government. Further, India’s leading-edge capabilities in the space programme through the Indian Space Research Organisation can be leveraged to accelerate OneWeb’s ambitions,” Bharti Enterprises chairman Sunil Mittal said in a statement.

https://www.news18.com/news/tech/bharti-enterprises-uk-govt-win-auction-worth-1-billion-for-satellite-company-oneweb-2701139.html

[ringsider]

I've been following this from afar. To me the Bharti move makes complete sense, as Bharti Airtel is one of the largest mobile telephony groups on the planet - they already provide service to regions where at least one third of the Other 3 Billion that forms the O3B name live.

To extend their network coverage outside the major routes and population centres in e.g. India and Bangladesh using base stations would be prohibitively expensive. A $500m investment in universal coverage is actually quite cheap by terrestrial network costs - they are spending $8b on 4G and 5G rollouts over the next 3 years according to press articles.

Bharti Airtel has a market cap in the multiple tens of billions. Their nearest competitor Reliance recently raised $10b without any trouble. This is chump change for them, a minor stock issue. In return they can control a satellite network that enhances their terrestrial offer and puts them well ahead of Reliance in terms of service reach, speed, cost and technology. And they get in relatively cheap compared to what was spent so far.

The UK Govt thing is more about bringing jobs to a UK satellite manufacturing industry that is now locked out of the EUs Galileo development programs, and maybe a way to build a global milcomsat network on the cheap. UK-based launchers might get a piece of it longer term, but the bulk will be deployed per contract by Arianespace.

The whole GNSS thing is just a side issue, a red herring. It's been brought to the front but it's irrelevant to the core decision. In fact there may be a trading card for the Brits in owning the OneWeb network. "Hey, EU: want access to our secure, global, non-US-controlled milcomsat network? Trade you that for access to Galileo PRS....."

[alexterrell]

I've been following this from afar. To me the Bharti move makes complete sense, as Bharti Airtel is one of the largest mobile telephony groups on the planet - they already provide service to regions where at least one third of the Other 3 Billion that forms the O3B name live.

To extend their network coverage outside the major routes and population centres in e.g. India and Bangladesh using base stations would be prohibitively expensive. A $500m investment in universal coverage is actually quite cheap by terrestrial network costs - they are spending $8b on 4G and 5G rollouts over the next 3 years according to press articles.

Bharti Airtel has a market cap in the multiple tens of billions. Their nearest competitor Reliance recently raised $10b without any trouble. This is chump change for them, a minor stock issue. In return they can control a satellite network that enhances their terrestrial offer and puts them well ahead of Reliance in terms of service reach, speed, cost and technology. And they get in relatively cheap compared to what was spent so far.

The UK Govt thing is more about bringing jobs to a UK satellite manufacturing industry that is now locked out of the EUs Galileo development programs, and maybe a way to build a global milcomsat network on the cheap. UK-based launchers might get a piece of it longer term, but the bulk will be deployed per contract by Arianespace.

The whole GNSS thing is just a side issue, a red herring. It's been brought to the front but it's irrelevant to the core decision. In fact there may be a trading card for the Brits in owning the OneWeb network. "Hey, EU: want access to our secure, global, non-US-controlled milcomsat network? Trade you that for access to Galileo PRS....."

There is huge potential in marketing broadband services across Asia, and Bharti could do that. (Not in China as India and China are having a spat - but then China is having a spat with everyone at the moment).

For all SpaceX's brilliance in getting their satellites up, I don't think they know anything about selling to consumers and small businesses in Asia. So OneWeb could be the satellite broadband provider of choice in Asia - the world's biggest market.

The UK's investment might work from a financial point of view, provided they leave OneWeb and Bharti to run the thing, and don't interfere as part of their Brexit industrial policy.

[ChrisWilson68]

For all SpaceX's brilliance in getting their satellites up, I don't think they know anything about selling to consumers and small businesses in Asia. So OneWeb could be the satellite broadband provider of choice in Asia - the world's biggest market.

They didn't know how to build communication satellites either a few years ago.  And yet they managed to hire people with the skill sets they needed.

Starlink can hire people and it can partner with local companies.

I don't find it plausible that selling to consumers and businesses in Asia is a something Starlink can't find a way to do.

Their CEO's car company does very well in the biggest Asian consumer market.

[john smith 19]

I'm betting you pretty much know most of the answers. The gap between goals and capability/performance so far can be measured in parsecs.

That's flattering but LEO and MEO comm sat constellations is not something I really follow closely so I'm always interested in hearing from anyone who's more knowledgeable than me, which in this area means quite a lot of people. 

I'm thinking could you do a GNSS without atomic clocks on the satellites but using them to distribute a time standard some how without scrapping the satellite design? The ground terminals are tough because all the known systems run in the 1-2GHz range but Ku band is more like 12-18GHz

This sort of RF stuff and software jiggery pokery is well beyond my skillset.  I don't think it can be done without a clean sheet design of the satellite (in which what's the point of the stake in OneWeb to begin with?) but then I didn't think you could do GPS decoding with 1 bit sampling (I was wrong).

And, I wouldn't say that investment motivation is OT. The reasons this venture is still theoretically alive sounds relevant to me. Surviving on technical merit would be nice, but not likely.

so far if Bhati is that rich why they even saw the need to have the British govt involved at all is quite baffling. Given that the UK has spent a long time getting rid of all of its state owned industries this seems eccentric to put it mildly*


*A few other adjectives come to mind the sites filtering system will prevent me from using them. 

[ncb1397]

Their CEO's car company does very well in the biggest Asian consumer market.

If by very well, you mean .16% market share last year. In a rank of brands, they would be #42 in unit sales.

[LouScheffer]

The astronomers were VERY happy when OneWeb went bankrupt.  For astronomy, the higher the orbit the worse, since the satellites are illuminated longer after sunset and earlier before dawn.  1200 km orbits are MUCH worse than those lower SpaceX orbits, and SpaceX is already working with the astronomers to reduce the impact.  No such cooperation exists yet with OneWeb, and the astronomers are worried.

Also, perhaps the space debris community is also un-breathing a sigh of relief.  Any debris created at 1200 km will be there for a LONG time.

[thirtyone]

The astronomers were VERY happy when OneWeb went bankrupt.  For astronomy, the higher the orbit the worse, since the satellites are illuminated longer after sunset and earlier before dawn.  1200 km orbits are MUCH worse than those lower SpaceX orbits, and SpaceX is already working with the astronomers to reduce the impact.  No such cooperation exists yet with OneWeb, and the astronomers are worried.

Also, perhaps the space debris community is also un-breathing a sigh of relief.  Any debris created at 1200 km will be there for a LONG time.

How much does the UK government pay into astronomical research per year? Might help things out if it turns out their stake in OneWeb would conflict with other government investments if OneWeb didn't take measures to reduce astronomical interference.

[RedLineTrain]

We'll see if this passes muster with CFIUS.  There could be a negotiation ahead...

[meekGee]

Their CEO's car company does very well in the biggest Asian consumer market.

If by very well, you mean .16% market share last year. In a rank of brands, they would be #42 in unit sales.

"Very Well" is an apt description.  This data is for a factory on its first year, a partial year.

By your numbers, it should be obvious (in the context of the OP) that Musk's companies are pretty capable when it comes to establishing demand in foreign market.

[Sam Ho]

We'll see if this passes muster with CFIUS.  There could be a negotiation ahead...

I would guess CFIUS thinks that this outcome is better than the alternative.

The US Government did make a filing to remind everyone they can block transactions they don't approve of.  They didn't explicitly mention China, but they really didn't have to.

https://casedocs.omniagentsolutions.com/cmsvol2/pub_47378/827911_339.pdf