Eutelsat OneWeb: Constellation - General Thread

[NaN]

https://amp.ft.com/content/50c3b6dc-2d2f-4bb4-aa9b-b24493315140?__twitter_impression=true

UK government considering buying OneWeb and add GPS to satellites.

That is behind a paywall, but this public Reuters article looks like a rewrite -- plus I found a recent article on the proposed GNSS in question. Interesting concept but seems unlikely that this will happen

https://www.reuters.com/article/britain-eu-satellite/britain-to-scale-back-on-independent-satellite-system-ft-idUSL4N2DW3HI
https://spacewatch.global/2020/05/pressure-grows-to-scrap-proposed-uk-global-navigation-satellite-system/

[gongora]

This is a document from Arianespace filed in the OneWeb bankruptcy case.  It seems to show OneWeb owing money for Soyuz flights 10+.

[grimlocks]

Are final bids still due this Friday?

[king1999]

Are final bids still due this Friday?

Haven't heard any changes. You only have a few days to get ready 

[gongora]

https://twitter.com/planet4589/status/1276183261891485699

Meanwhile, OneWeb mostly still in parking orbit, although OW-0013 has joined the test sats in higher orbit.

[jongoff]

This rumor for FT is interesting. Supposedly at least one of the bids includes a consortium with some UK gov't backing, to the tune of £500M.

https://twitter.com/Megaconstellati/status/1276380004578922496

It'll be interesting to see how this all plays out tomorrow. Is tomorrow still the deadline for all of the proposed bids? How much info (if any) about the bids will be public information? Will we even know who actually placed bids? Or will we only hear whoever had the best bid, once the bankruptcy judge rules on things? Anyone here with Chapter 11 experience care to weigh in on what next steps look like?

~Jon

[ChrisWilson68]

This rumor for FT is interesting. Supposedly at least one of the bids includes a consortium with some UK gov't backing, to the tune of £500M.

Interesting.  I wonder if this will mean a lengthy delay before resuming launches so they can develop the positioning payload.  It sounds like the positioning payload is more of an idea right now that will take a couple of years, at least, to develop into a deployable system.  It sounds like the positioning payload is the only reason the UK government is putting up the money, as a face-saving way of backing out of their promise to spend 5 billion pounds on a full GPS-style system.

[nacnud]

The Guardian has the UK Gov OneWeb story too. If Boris is trying to invest in it then it's probably doomed.

UK poised to invest £500m in satellite rival to EU's Galileo system

PM and chancellor back purchase of 20% stake in troubled US operator OneWeb


Britain has begun the process of purchasing its own satellite navigation system for defence and critical national infrastructure purposes, according to reports.

The Times says Boris Johnson and the chancellor, Rishi Sunak, signed off on the purchase of a 20% stake in satellite operator OneWeb on Thursday night, after the UK was unable to access the EU’s Galileo satellite navigation system because of Brexit...

More at link

[daedalus1]

The Guardian has the UK Gov OneWeb story too. If Boris is trying to invest in it then it's probably doomed.

UK poised to invest £500m in satellite rival to EU's Galileo system

PM and chancellor back purchase of 20% stake in troubled US operator OneWeb


Britain has begun the process of purchasing its own satellite navigation system for defence and critical national infrastructure purposes, according to reports.

The Times says Boris Johnson and the chancellor, Rishi Sunak, signed off on the purchase of a 20% stake in satellite operator OneWeb on Thursday night, after the UK was unable to access the EU’s Galileo satellite navigation system because of Brexit...

More at link

This is not a GPS satellite. The payload is only broadband?

[Bean Kenobi]

For satellites already on orbit, yes, only broadband. But they seem to wish to buy the system in order to add positioning payload on future satellites of the constellation, in addition to main broadband payload.

[daedalus1]

For satellites already on orbit, yes, only broadband. But they seem to wish to buy the system in order to add positioning payload on future satellites of the constellation, in addition to main broadband payload.

The quote implies that it is already a GPS system.

[ChrisWilson68]

For satellites already on orbit, yes, only broadband. But they seem to wish to buy the system in order to add positioning payload on future satellites of the constellation, in addition to main broadband payload.

The quote implies that it is already a GPS system.

The link in the tweet jongoff posted above explains Bean Kenobi is correct.

https://www.ft.com/content/a1da90e8-8869-4740-b5eb-d8c6339d8e2f

The prime minister appears to have been won over by proposals from the Satellite Applications Catapult this year to develop an innovative positioning technology that could be installed on OneWeb’s low-earth-orbiting satellites, several people with knowledge of the discussions said.

British companies were barred from the EU’s Galileo global navigation system after Brexit. But following 18 months of studying proposals for its own service — with the price tag soaring from £4bn to more than £5bn — the UK government decided to bid for OneWeb instead.

The government’s potential participation in a OneWeb bid has been the focus of fierce opposition in some parts of the space industry, which had hoped to win positions on a Galileo-style navigation project. Critics have dismissed the low-earth technology as unproven and fraught with risk.

However, a deciding factor appears to have been support from US defence officials who have told the government they do not want the UK to develop a replica of the GPS system. A low-earth navigation service would complement the US system and offer extra resilience to US allies, say several parties close to the subject.

[ChrisWilson68]

I have to wonder if the UK would be better just building its own, smaller satellites for its LEO positioning system rather than adding them to OneWeb.  If the OneWeb communication network isn't economically viable, attaching it to the LEO positioning system might just cause the UK government to spend more than it would if it just built its own LEO constellation dedicated to positioning alone.  Especially if it could launch them cheaply via SpaceX.

[daedalus1]

I have to wonder if the UK would be better just building its own, smaller satellites for its LEO positioning system rather than adding them to OneWeb.  If the OneWeb communication network isn't economically viable, attaching it to the LEO positioning system might just cause the UK government to spend more than it would if it just built its own LEO constellation dedicated to positioning alone.  Especially if it could launch them cheaply via SpaceX.

Yes that is why I questioned it. Doesn't the UK build most of the Galileo satellite anyway. It surely can't be a great leap to install it on a standard bus and get a cheap launch.
The hundreds of broadband satellites are going to need a substantial investment for something that isn't required.

[ChrisWilson68]

I have to wonder if the UK would be better just building its own, smaller satellites for its LEO positioning system rather than adding them to OneWeb.  If the OneWeb communication network isn't economically viable, attaching it to the LEO positioning system might just cause the UK government to spend more than it would if it just built its own LEO constellation dedicated to positioning alone.  Especially if it could launch them cheaply via SpaceX.

Yes that is why I questioned it. Doesn't the UK build most of the Galileo satellite anyway. It surely can't be a great leap to install it on a standard bus and get a cheap launch.
The hundreds of broadband satellites are going to need a substantial investment for something that isn't required.

Sadly, I think OneWeb management bamboozled people in government who don't know any better.  Ironically, since French companies both build and launch OneWeb, this move is just going to benefit the very people who kicked the UK out of the Galileo program in the first place in retaliation for leaving the EU.

[Bean Kenobi]

For satellites already on orbit, yes, only broadband. But they seem to wish to buy the system in order to add positioning payload on future satellites of the constellation, in addition to main broadband payload.

The quote implies that it is already a GPS system.

Sorry, but I don't understand this quote the same way as you do.
To me, it's saying they're buying Oneweb to make it also a GPS provider, in addition to broadband.
I searched the web : i haven't found any mention of any GPS signal delivery equipement installed on satellites already on orbit.

[nacnud]

Sadly, I think OneWeb management bamboozled people in government who don't know any better. 

Bingo

[edzieba]

I guess it could be considered as using the Onewab satellites as a mostly ready made bus (I'm sure there are satellites in full or partial construction that could come along with purchasing the company) that a GNSS payload could be attached to. Whether that actually saves you any time and money over using a dedicated bus, or whether a Oneweb bus can even be inserted into a useful orbit for GNSS functions, or whether the a notional GNSS payload can co-exist with a broadband payload (if part of the concept is to pay for the GNSS constellation by broadband proceeds) is the sort of full consideration of plans before flashing the cash that the current government is not exactly known for.

this move is just going to benefit the very people who kicked the UK out of the Galileo program in the first place in retaliation for leaving the EU.

That's a rather tail-wags-dog way of putting things. The UK decided to leave the EU, and decided they did not want to abide by the terms of non-EU states for participating in the Galileo project.

[agp]

What GNSS hardware are the in orbit OneWeb satellites missing?

My understanding is that a navigation satellite needs three things, it's location, the precise time, and a way to broadcast that information. The OneWeb satellites should be able to broadcast, since they're designed for the internet. The position should also be easy to get since orbits are stable and ground stations can always give corrections. Is the concern that the on-board clocks are not precise enough?


Using OneWeb for satellite navigation isn't a new idea, this article from three years ago suggested it. The idea is that by being in LEO the signals should be stronger and are able to work in urban canyons and indoors.

 https://www.gpsworld.com/innovation-navigation-from-leo/amp/

That article was published before any satellites were launched, so I don't think it has special information about the hardware onboard.

[nacnud]

You need very, very precise and accurate clock for GPS. The better the clock the better the location can be determined. There is no way current one web sats would have accurate enough clocks.