Eutelsat OneWeb: Constellation - General Thread

[meberbs]

The counterpoint being that starlink launch opportunities are listed on SpaceX's smallsat portal tell the end of 2021 and all of them are 53 degrees.

Except that isn't a full list of Starlink launches, just the ones with rideshare available, and at current rate of production and launch, they would be done the higher altitude 53 degree orbits as well by the end of 2021. There is no evidence that they wouldn't have done any of the polar launches yet by then though. Multiple reasons for not listing rideshare for the polar missions exist including, simply not having space available on the polar launches, not being certain they can accurately predict launch dates for them, or expecting other changes in the future to their deployment plans (may be dependent on how smoothly Starship development goes.)

But this is getting off topic. The point is OneWeb does not have a solid basis for claiming that SpaceX is less focused on coverage than they are.

[ncb1397]

But this is getting off topic. The point is OneWeb does not have a solid basis for claiming that SpaceX is less focused on coverage than they are.

Sure they do...

OneWeb

OneWeb, the UK-based global communications company, plans to construct three satellite ground stations in China, in bid to support its broader goal of offering internet access everywhere for everyone, the company CEO said.

Earlier this month, the company signed a framework agreement with Sanya, South China's Hainan province, to set up a satellite communication ground station in the city.

The first project still needs to get final authorization from the Chinese government, while the company is selecting sites for the other two ground stations, Adrian Steckel, CEO with OneWeb, told China Daily in a recent interview.

https://www.chinadaily.com.cn/a/201911/28/WS5ddf8fb2a310cf3e3557ab4f.html

SpaceX China...nothing

Especially when you consider that SpaceX is going to need more ground stations for their initial layer to have the same coverage because of the lower altitude satellites.

And it is also a good point that OneWeb currently has communication with every point on earth daily from their very first ring deployment..which could be applied to machine to machine or intermittent communication applications. That doesn't exist with starlink currently.

[lonestriker]

But this is getting off topic. The point is OneWeb does not have a solid basis for claiming that SpaceX is less focused on coverage than they are.

Sure they do...

OneWeb

OneWeb, the UK-based global communications company, plans to construct three satellite ground stations in China, in bid to support its broader goal of offering internet access everywhere for everyone, the company CEO said.

Earlier this month, the company signed a framework agreement with Sanya, South China's Hainan province, to set up a satellite communication ground station in the city.

The first project still needs to get final authorization from the Chinese government, while the company is selecting sites for the other two ground stations, Adrian Steckel, CEO with OneWeb, told China Daily in a recent interview.

https://www.chinadaily.com.cn/a/201911/28/WS5ddf8fb2a310cf3e3557ab4f.html

SpaceX China...nothing

Especially when you consider that SpaceX is going to need more ground stations for their initial layer to have the same coverage because of the lower altitude satellites.

And it is also a good point that OneWeb currently has communication with every point on earth daily from their very first ring deployment..which could be applied to machine to machine or intermittent communication applications. That doesn't exist with starlink currently.

Or perhaps SpaceX knows that the biggest customer will likely be the US military and they're prioritizing differently?  Or they're just not putting every discussion out as a press release?  We know OneWeb is lining up a lot of base stations, so good for them.  But that doesn't mean SpaceX isn't or that they're sitting idle.  I hope both providers succeed.

[meberbs]

SpaceX China...nothing

Assuming that my previous reply got removed for pointing out the political implications of why SpaceX could choose to avoid China, I'll just leave it at pointing out that whether one company or another decides to do business in a specific country is a completely different topic than the general "coverage" being discussed.

Especially when you consider that SpaceX is going to need more ground stations for their initial layer to have the same coverage because of the lower altitude satellites.

See the Starlink threads where this has already been thoroughly addressed, it would be off topic to go into detail here.

And it is also a good point that OneWeb currently has communication with every point on earth daily from their very first ring deployment..which could be applied to machine to machine or intermittent communication applications. That doesn't exist with starlink currently.

No, this is a terrible point, because if it would be true OneWeb would be offering this now, but they have already stated they won't be offering service until multiple more launches are completed, so they have continuous coverage over a sufficient polar region. Your point is countered by the reality of the situation.

[gongora]

Assuming that my previous reply got removed for pointing out the political implications of why SpaceX could choose to avoid China, I'll just leave it at pointing out that whether one company or another decides to do business in a specific country is a completely different topic than the general "coverage" being discussed.

Your post was removed more for berating someone else for this SpaceX digression when you've been very active in starting and perpetuating it.  You're also making dubious claims about the SpaceX deployment schedule.  I would not count on SpaceX having polar coverage by the end of 2021.

[gongora]

https://twitter.com/PeterGuggenbach/status/1230290493457735681

We are looking forward to the upcoming launches of @OneWebSatellit1. We deliver key products like structures, thermal insulation and dispensers!

[FutureSpaceTourist]

https://twitter.com/m_ladovaz/status/1230812232646320130

In few days we are going to do it again. Another full batch of satellites is ready to go to the launch site.🚀🚀@OneWeb @Arianespace

... and batch 1 is fully functional and starting orbit raising

[Rondaz]

We're committed to a sustainable Space for generations to come.

Connectivity can help the maritime industry lower emissions and minimize environmental impact

https://twitter.com/OneWeb/status/1231985697910816770

[thirtyone]

Anyone keeping track of the satellites' orbital altitudes? Actually, does anyone know if there's a place where you can look at historical TLEs, or have people just been saving data off of Celestrak or some other data source every day to generate their plots? I'm also a little confused about who is actually allowed to sign up and access data directly from space-track, and how some sites seem to be allowed to publish TLEs from them.

I don't remember the exact initial deployment orbit of each satellite, but I just looked at Celestrak and I could swear they haven't moved a whole lot since launch. Guessing they're doing a bunch of on-orbit checkouts? Or the orbital raise time is going to be a bit long.

[FutureSpaceTourist]

https://twitter.com/thesheetztweetz/status/1236995294543429632

Two announcements from OneWeb to start off #SATShow:

- global distribution partnership with Hughes (broadband satellite network company)
- contract with Intellian (builder of mobile satellite antennas) to manufacture user terminals for OneWeb's network.

[Asteroza]

https://twitter.com/thesheetztweetz/status/1236995294543429632

Two announcements from OneWeb to start off #SATShow:

- global distribution partnership with Hughes (broadband satellite network company)
- contract with Intellian (builder of mobile satellite antennas) to manufacture user terminals for OneWeb's network.

Well, that explains how HughesNet is going to fight back against Viasat and Starlink, but weren't they going to use the fancy pants antenna made by the startup owned by a OneWeb founder? Or maybe they will, but Intellian is the bulk manufacturer?

[Craftyatom]

Well, that explains how HughesNet is going to fight back against Viasat and Starlink, but weren't they going to use the fancy pants antenna made by the startup owned by a OneWeb founder? Or maybe they will, but Intellian is the bulk manufacturer?

SpaceNews: OneWeb, SpaceX optimistic about cheap user terminals

Dylan Browne, president of OneWeb’s government business unit, said the company is mirroring its satellite manufacturing approach of establishing a broad network of suppliers to build components in mass.

“We have a similar supply chain discussion around our user terminals, producing in such a volume — literally thousands a month — that we can’t have just one vendor,” Browne said.

The article also lists some expected price points.

OneWeb expects to have user terminals between $1,000 to $1,500 for community Wi-Fi services, Browne said.

Community Wi-Fi hotspots are often used to connect internet cafes and public spaces where dozens of devices connect simultaneously to the internet.

OneWeb’s “aspirational” goal for the core antenna chipsets needed to create user terminals for commercial aircraft is $150,000, Browne said.

“That would be about half of what the market price is currently,” he said. “I think we can do that.”

The article also states that Starlink user terminals are (somewhat predictably) going to be produced in-house (as opposed to OneWeb's distributed production approach), but there's a whole other thread for discussion of that.

[ChrisWilson68]

SpaceNews: OneWeb, SpaceX optimistic about cheap user terminals

Dylan Browne, president of OneWeb’s government business unit, said the company is mirroring its satellite manufacturing approach of establishing a broad network of suppliers to build components in mass.

“We have a similar supply chain discussion around our user terminals, producing in such a volume — literally thousands a month — that we can’t have just one vendor,” Browne said.

That's a pretty ridiculous reason to have multiple vendors.  Plenty of companies make consumer electronics at volumes of millions a month.

[FutureSpaceTourist]

twitter.com/jeff_foust/status/1237478861455138816

Jean Marc Nasr of Airbus says their OneWeb joint venture is now building 1.5 satellites a day at their Florida factory. First set of 34 launched last month working well in orbit. #SATShow

https://twitter.com/13ericralph31/status/1237483179629400064

This is extra great in light of SpaceX's "6 satellites per day" comment yesterday

[ncb1397]

SpaceNews: OneWeb, SpaceX optimistic about cheap user terminals

Dylan Browne, president of OneWeb’s government business unit, said the company is mirroring its satellite manufacturing approach of establishing a broad network of suppliers to build components in mass.

“We have a similar supply chain discussion around our user terminals, producing in such a volume — literally thousands a month — that we can’t have just one vendor,” Browne said.

That's a pretty ridiculous reason to have multiple vendors.  Plenty of companies make consumer electronics at volumes of millions a month.

I've yet to see one. Here is a mock up. Electronically scanned arrays usually are used in $100 million dollar fighter aircraft...stuff like that. Cheap in this case is $1000-$1500.

https://spacenews.com/oneweb-spacex-optimistic-about-cheap-user-terminals/

[ChrisWilson68]

SpaceNews: OneWeb, SpaceX optimistic about cheap user terminals

Dylan Browne, president of OneWeb’s government business unit, said the company is mirroring its satellite manufacturing approach of establishing a broad network of suppliers to build components in mass.

“We have a similar supply chain discussion around our user terminals, producing in such a volume — literally thousands a month — that we can’t have just one vendor,” Browne said.

That's a pretty ridiculous reason to have multiple vendors.  Plenty of companies make consumer electronics at volumes of millions a month.

I've yet to see one. Here is a mock up. Electronically scanned arrays usually are used in $100 million dollar fighter aircraft...stuff like that.

https://spacenews.com/oneweb-spacex-optimistic-about-cheap-user-terminals/

Your reply to my post doesn't actually address my post in any way.

[ncb1397]

SpaceNews: OneWeb, SpaceX optimistic about cheap user terminals

Dylan Browne, president of OneWeb’s government business unit, said the company is mirroring its satellite manufacturing approach of establishing a broad network of suppliers to build components in mass.

“We have a similar supply chain discussion around our user terminals, producing in such a volume — literally thousands a month — that we can’t have just one vendor,” Browne said.

That's a pretty ridiculous reason to have multiple vendors.  Plenty of companies make consumer electronics at volumes of millions a month.

I've yet to see one. Here is a mock up. Electronically scanned arrays usually are used in $100 million dollar fighter aircraft...stuff like that.

https://spacenews.com/oneweb-spacex-optimistic-about-cheap-user-terminals/

Your reply to my post doesn't actually address my post in any way.

Well, sort of. There is no supply chain for this. Run of the mill consumer electronics had a supply chain built up over years. First year of iPhone sales was 1.49 million units (measured in thousands per month rather than millions) and rather expensive. In this case, high volume is the F-35 production line at 15/month.

[ChrisWilson68]

SpaceNews: OneWeb, SpaceX optimistic about cheap user terminals

Dylan Browne, president of OneWeb’s government business unit, said the company is mirroring its satellite manufacturing approach of establishing a broad network of suppliers to build components in mass.

“We have a similar supply chain discussion around our user terminals, producing in such a volume — literally thousands a month — that we can’t have just one vendor,” Browne said.

That's a pretty ridiculous reason to have multiple vendors.  Plenty of companies make consumer electronics at volumes of millions a month.

I've yet to see one. Here is a mock up. Electronically scanned arrays usually are used in $100 million dollar fighter aircraft...stuff like that.

https://spacenews.com/oneweb-spacex-optimistic-about-cheap-user-terminals/

Your reply to my post doesn't actually address my post in any way.

Well, sort of. There is no supply chain for this. Run of the mill consumer electronics had a supply chain built up over years. First year of iPhone sales was 1.49 million units (measured in thousands per month rather than millions) and rather expensive. In this case, high volume is the F-35 production line at 15/month.

Your iPhone example just proves my point -- a single supplier can easily produce a new product in the thousands per month.

And SpaceX is also proving the point with their user terminals, which they will be producing by the thousands per month from one supplier -- themselves.

The truth for OneWeb is more likely that they haven't convinced a single supplier to invest heavily to ramp up production because the suppliers aren't convinced of the demand.

[thirtyone]

I've yet to see one. Here is a mock up. Electronically scanned arrays usually are used in $100 million dollar fighter aircraft...stuff like that.

https://spacenews.com/oneweb-spacex-optimistic-about-cheap-user-terminals/

To be clear, ESAs are a particularly expensive, complex type of phased array antenna that's necessary to er, blow things up with great accuracy. The number of antennas is ridiculous, and the amount of performance required out of each antenna is ridiculous. A normal communications phased array is considerably less expensive and I think definitely feasible in the $100s at consumer equipment volumes. I'd estimate a brain-dead 8x8 design would probably cost in the low tens of thousands of dollars, definitely not millions. Smaller phased arrays are something you play around with in a university lab, so they're hardly that difficult to implement, but of course making them at lower cost or higher performance is difficult. Remember, any ESA radar is trying to detect or ping with big hunks of specially shaped metal that aren't exactly trying to talk back.

The product does not exist yet, which is good reason to be concerned, but a few critical components required for that cost point exist. Many of them are already being demonstrated, right now, in 5G designs. They aren't called phased arrays, because that isn't really particularly meaningful when you're not doing line of site communication, but they sort of do similar things ("MIMO" antennas).

(edit) - saw your edit, would probably agree that a conservative cost estimate of an antenna at volume is more like the low $1k range. Having seen some pretty impressive consumer tech that leverages similar technologies at the $100-$200 range, I suspect it's possible to hit the low $100s, but time will tell. If I had more time I could attempt to see what all the required elements put together might cost.

Also, to be clear, MIMO is missing a few key elements of a phased array, but it's a good way to get a sense of the volume cost of some components inside a consumer-scale phased array.

[ncb1397]

Anyone have rough cost/unit and unit production numbers for the Kymeta u7 terminals?

https://www.kymetacorp.com/products/terminal/

The case studies of FEMA disaster relief and firefighting aren't encouraging that they are high(ish) volume and low(ish) cost.