Author Topic: Fairing reuse  (Read 440228 times)

Offline darkenfast

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Re: Fairing reuse
« Reply #800 on: 03/31/2017 06:30 AM »
"Look, Ma!  I caught a big one!"

Offline manoweb

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Re: Fairing reuse
« Reply #801 on: 03/31/2017 07:05 AM »
Anyway - has anybody seen this image with the landed fairing? Or was it only shown to Mr. E. Musk during the press conference and never shown to the public, yet?

Offline Lars-J

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Re: Fairing reuse
« Reply #802 on: 03/31/2017 07:27 AM »
I guess the fairing landed, but was not recovered. (sunk before they could get to it?)
https://twitter.com/SpaceBrendan/status/847599001746644996
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Brendan Byrne @SpaceBrendan
Musk: Correction, not recovered, but it was directed to a landing area. Will have "bouncy" castle soon.

Aha! So it looks like my guess that they will try to land it on an inflated surface was correct.  8)

Offline john smith 19

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Re: Fairing reuse
« Reply #803 on: 03/31/2017 07:42 AM »
Thinking about faring reuse raises some interesting questions.

Historically there seems to have been a fair bit of customizing on the fairing for each payload. Custom sized (and shaped) doors and access panels. Specialized fluid and electrical connectors and windows for RF and various optical wavelengths.  I think they've been a nice options-at-extra-cost addition to the basic launch service for all LV mfgs.

In principle any fairing could wrap any payload, since they all have basically the same interior, but those different fittings will change the mechanical properties a bit. Any given hole is a potential stress concentrator so increase the risk of failure.  There is also the issue that composite structures can suffer impact damage leading to 30% loss of strength with no visible damage (NASA COPV tests).

The upside is that not being a closed surface (more like 2 canoes with the tails chopped off) the two halves can absorb a lot of stress by flexing in a wide variety of modes during the re entry.

So the question is will SX continue the practice of customized PLF's, and if so do customers get to choose which ones are used.Likewise if they chose the "no special mods" option do they get a stock PLF, or just get the next one that's available, regardless of what fittings are on it, as it's good enough to do the job?

BTW
First attempted PLF recovery (but plenty of data collected)

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2017 is looking to be an exciting year.  With luck it will also see SLC 40 working again and the long awaited FH maiden flight.

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Offline Lars-J

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Re: Fairing reuse
« Reply #804 on: 03/31/2017 07:53 AM »
So the question is will SX continue the practice of customized PLF's, and if so do customers get to choose which ones are used.Likewise if they chose the "no special mods" option do they get a stock PLF, or just get the next one that's available, regardless of what fittings are on it, as it's good enough to do the job?

I don't think SpaceX customizes their PLF's. (unless I am mistaken) There is only one model available.

Offline woods170

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Re: Fairing reuse
« Reply #805 on: 03/31/2017 09:36 AM »
Thinking about faring reuse raises some interesting questions.

Historically there seems to have been a fair bit of customizing on the fairing for each payload. Custom sized (and shaped) doors and access panels.

SpaceX doesn't do customized fairings (yet). "Historically" applies to other LSP's.

Offline Welsh Dragon

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Re: Fairing reuse
« Reply #806 on: 03/31/2017 09:41 AM »
So the question is will SX continue the practice of customized PLF's, and if so do customers get to choose which ones are used.Likewise if they chose the "no special mods" option do they get a stock PLF, or just get the next one that's available, regardless of what fittings are on it, as it's good enough to do the job?

I don't think SpaceX customizes their PLF's. (unless I am mistaken) There is only one model available.
I think the customisation here would be adding the recovery mods. So in a sense you'd have two models, with or without those mods.

Offline rpapo

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Re: Fairing reuse
« Reply #807 on: 03/31/2017 10:19 AM »
I don't think SpaceX customizes their PLF's. (unless I am mistaken) There is only one model available.
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Online Robotbeat

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Re: Fairing reuse
« Reply #808 on: 03/31/2017 11:24 AM »
Did he really say bouncy house? I said that upthread a ways.
"Bouncy castle" and he said it with a straight face and no one else laughed. 😂
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Offline john smith 19

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Re: Fairing reuse
« Reply #809 on: 03/31/2017 11:30 AM »
Thinking about faring reuse raises some interesting questions.

Historically there seems to have been a fair bit of customizing on the fairing for each payload. Custom sized (and shaped) doors and access panels.

SpaceX doesn't do customized fairings (yet). "Historically" applies to other LSP's.
Interesting. I recalled both Orbital (for Pegasus) and ULA offering PLF mods for various services and assumed it was SOP for all LV mfgs.

Keeping them standardized let's them do a batch and allow them them to swap PLF's round if one is damaged.

I note it took them a year to re-fly a first stage. Obviously a PLF is simpler but they still need to recover one intact. AIUI they were only trying to recover one of the pair of segments. My guess would be their next attempt will be for both halves to get a full set.

This is clearly the start of a journey. I think they will want to accumulate quite a lot of PLF's before they start re-flying.

It's interesting to ask if this could have been done decades ago if anyone was prepared to do so, or if only the advent of small, powerful GNC hardware has allowed something this complex to be flown.
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Offline john smith 19

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Re: Fairing reuse
« Reply #810 on: 03/31/2017 11:35 AM »
Did he really say bouncy house? I said that upthread a ways.
"Bouncy castle" and he said it with a straight face and no one else laughed. 😂
That suggests either an inflatable structure draped over the ADRS or an even bigger "crash mat" towed behind it.


Either is quite possible, provided you can deliver enough air flow to keep the structure a couple of psi above atmospheric.  It should (in principle) allow a smaller parachute on thePLF, which is clearly a good thing, given how close the PLF gets to orbit.
BFS. The worlds first Methane fueled FFORSC engined CFRP structured A380 sized aerospaceplane tail sitter capable of flying in Earth and Mars atmospheres. BFR. The worlds biggest Methane fueled FFORSC engined CFRP structured booster for BFS. First flight to Mars by end of 2022. Forward looking statements. T&C Apply So, you are going to Mars to start a better life? Picture it in your mind. Now say what it is out loud.

Offline JamesH65

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Re: Fairing reuse
« Reply #811 on: 03/31/2017 11:49 AM »
I'm assuming something along these lines




Offline Jcc

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Re: Fairing reuse
« Reply #812 on: 03/31/2017 12:03 PM »
I'm assuming something along these lines



Yes, only considerably larger than a bus, and floating in the ocean. And probably they need 2 of them. Then, visit with a ship with a crane, pick them up and put them on the deck, deflate and retrieve the "bouncy castle". All in a day's work.

Maybe they stay close together with the ship. Not much danger to the crew if they stay sheltered when they land. Or, possibly already on the deck. If the ship is big enough, it can hold 2 bouncy castles.

Offline rpapo

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Re: Fairing reuse
« Reply #813 on: 03/31/2017 12:06 PM »
Yes, only considerably larger than a bus, and floating in the ocean. And probably they need 2 of them. Then, visit with a ship with a crane, pick them up and put them on the deck, deflate and retrieve the "bouncy castle". All in a day's work.

Maybe they stay close together with the ship. Not much danger to the crew if they stay sheltered when they land. Or, possibly already on the deck. If the ship is big enough, it can hold 2 bouncy castles.
Since the fairing descends without a tail of flame, if the landing is reasonably accurate, it may be possible for the tender to be closer than the tugs are at present to the ASDS.
« Last Edit: 03/31/2017 12:13 PM by rpapo »
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Offline rsdavis9

Re: Fairing reuse
« Reply #814 on: 03/31/2017 12:47 PM »
I think 2 separate barges with air bags on deck for the landing. Maybe transfer after landing to one ship to make fast trip back to land. Could even keep barges out there instead of making trip back and forth withlong trip back with barge.
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Online matthewkantar

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Re: Fairing reuse
« Reply #815 on: 03/31/2017 01:21 PM »
Is anyone else surprised the fairing sank? They were close enough to photograph it, they didn't have the gear to retrieve it? Also, isn't it filled with air pockets from the construction method? A sizable piece floated to the Bahamas not so long ago.

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Online AncientU

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Re: Fairing reuse
« Reply #816 on: 03/31/2017 01:46 PM »
Did he really say bouncy house? I said that upthread a ways.
"Bouncy castle" and he said it with a straight face and no one else laughed. 😂

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Offline sghill

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Re: Fairing reuse
« Reply #817 on: 03/31/2017 01:50 PM »
I fly paraplanes and paragliders. The control mechanism setup is be very easy and cheap for a steerable parachute (parafoil).

Parafoils use wing warping for heading changes and throttle or thermals for altitude changes. One servo with a capstan holding both control wires will provide perfect directional control. Pulling on one set of risers while  releasing the other set is how control is maintained. Pitch is mostly irrelevant with a parafoil, and altitude can be bled off by circling as needed. 

They can circle down and fly the shell halves back towards shore remotely for helicopter pickup just off the coast or airbag landing in the water (Elon's "bouncy house").  Or just land them right in the brush at LZ-1. They are going to want a fairly low glide ratio (like 2:1 or 3:1) because the huge surface area of the aeroshell half underneath that is also catching the wind.
« Last Edit: 03/31/2017 01:54 PM by sghill »
Bring the thunder Elon!

Offline Norm38

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Re: Fairing reuse
« Reply #818 on: 03/31/2017 02:03 PM »
Of the next 4 launches, two are RTLS, two are expendable.  So OCISLY is going to be mighty bored with nothing to do.  So maybe they'll use it to land fairings on?

Offline padrat

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Re: Fairing reuse
« Reply #819 on: 03/31/2017 03:03 PM »
So the question is will SX continue the practice of customized PLF's, and if so do customers get to choose which ones are used.Likewise if they chose the "no special mods" option do they get a stock PLF, or just get the next one that's available, regardless of what fittings are on it, as it's good enough to do the job?

I don't think SpaceX customizes their PLF's. (unless I am mistaken) There is only one model available.

There isn't really much customization done to the fairings. We're working towards keeping them very generic, obviously an advantage when you want to eventually reuse them. The goal, at least for the commercial customers, is to get to a basic universal design where the only differences are the logo and antenna setup. The most customization gets done to the payload adapter, of course. But yet, even those are surprisingly the same few basic setups (mostly)
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