Author Topic: Fairing reuse  (Read 551074 times)

Online southshore26

Re: Fairing reuse
« Reply #400 on: 05/28/2016 01:23 PM »
Didn't seem like it.

Offline Silmfeanor

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Re: Fairing reuse
« Reply #401 on: 06/02/2016 08:54 PM »
https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/738471747540783104

in response to a question: Are RCS thrusters the sole component for fairing recovery? Are chutes required?

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@mattyteare @karaswisher @waltmossberg @YouTube autosteering chutes will be added soon

So, we'll perhaps see some fairing halves coming back under chutes!

Offline AncientU

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Re: Fairing reuse
« Reply #402 on: 06/02/2016 09:07 PM »
Soon!

Wonder how far a self-steering chute could travel from the top of the atmosphere?
Hundreds of miles??? Seems doubtful, but gliders do travel that far from few 10k ft releases.
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Offline bstrong

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Re: Fairing reuse
« Reply #403 on: 06/02/2016 09:41 PM »
A bit of googling on "autosteering chutes" turns up that there are some available from the folks who make the Dragon chutes that sound pretty close to their needs. I wasn't expecting this to be available off-the-shelf.

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Nov 7/12: JPADS 10k. HDT Global subsidiary Airborne Systems announces that their “Dragonfly external link” JPADS 10K is in full rate production, with the first 243 type classified systems set to be delivered by April 2013.

The renamed JPADS 10K is the 2nd type classified JPADS platform to be fielded by the U.S. military. Unlike the lighter JPADS 2K’s 150m accuracy, the 10,000 pound capacity JPADS 10K is accurate only to within 250 meters. On the other hand, it can be used with Type V airdrop platforms to carry vehicles like Humvees, artillery pieces like an M777, or irregularly shaped items like shelters, generators, etc.

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/jpads-making-precision-airdrop-a-reality-0678/

Offline Jim

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Re: Fairing reuse
« Reply #404 on: 06/03/2016 01:26 AM »
Soon!

Wonder how far a self-steering chute could travel from the top of the atmosphere?
Hundreds of miles??? Seems doubtful, but gliders do travel that far from few 10k ft releases.

The chutes wouldn't come out until much lower in the atmosphere.  The ACS on the fairing is to keep it oriented until it is lower.

Online envy887

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Re: Fairing reuse
« Reply #405 on: 06/03/2016 02:05 AM »
Soon!

Wonder how far a self-steering chute could travel from the top of the atmosphere?
Hundreds of miles??? Seems doubtful, but gliders do travel that far from few 10k ft releases.

The chutes wouldn't come out until much lower in the atmosphere.  The ACS on the fairing is to keep it oriented until it is lower.

Gliders ride thermals to get that distance and have better glide ratios than chutes. Tens of miles is more likely. Think they will try to land it on a ship?

Offline arsenal

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Re: Fairing reuse
« Reply #406 on: 06/03/2016 06:52 AM »
Soon!

Wonder how far a self-steering chute could travel from the top of the atmosphere?
Hundreds of miles??? Seems doubtful, but gliders do travel that far from few 10k ft releases.

The chutes wouldn't come out until much lower in the atmosphere.  The ACS on the fairing is to keep it oriented until it is lower.

Gliders ride thermals to get that distance and have better glide ratios than chutes. Tens of miles is more likely. Think they will try to land it on a ship?
My guess would be similar to what they did with recovering the first stage. First they will pick a target in the ocean and see how close they can get to it. Additionally, this time they probably will send one of their boats try and recover it since unlike the first stage a fairing will probably stay in tact on impact with water. Then they may potentially try to land it on a ship, but I doubt it would be the same on that the first stage lands on. Pretty high chance that stuff collides.
« Last Edit: 06/03/2016 06:57 AM by arsenal »

Offline Kaputnik

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Re: Fairing reuse
« Reply #407 on: 06/03/2016 06:59 AM »
A mid-air capture by a helicopter would seem feasible, but a fairly expensive exercise- especially as you'd need two. But any other option means either splashing the fairing, or fitting (heavy) equipment to deal with impact. Plus I really doubt a steerable chute could have the accuracy to get it down onto a boat anyway.
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Offline savuporo

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Re: Fairing reuse
« Reply #408 on: 06/03/2016 07:28 AM »
Plus I really doubt a steerable chute could have the accuracy to get it down onto a boat anyway.
Military precision airdrop steerable parafoils ( Atair, MMIST, SPADES, Zodiac etc) had accuracy of about 50-200 meters ~8 years ago. Depending on payload size and drop altitude of course. Not hitting a barge with that, but i guess military never had a land on a dime requirement.
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Online envy887

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Re: Fairing reuse
« Reply #409 on: 06/03/2016 01:29 PM »
Plus I really doubt a steerable chute could have the accuracy to get it down onto a boat anyway.
Military precision airdrop steerable parafoils ( Atair, MMIST, SPADES, Zodiac etc) had accuracy of about 50-200 meters ~8 years ago. Depending on payload size and drop altitude of course. Not hitting a barge with that, but i guess military never had a land on a dime requirement.
Maybe the boat can drive the last 50-100m to get under the fairing. It doesn't have to land on a droneship, since a fairing coming down under a chute isn't all that dangerous... mass in only ~2t, terminal velocity is probably a few m/s, and there's no explosives aboard. Land it on a airbag sitting on the deck.

Offline Kaputnik

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Re: Fairing reuse
« Reply #410 on: 06/03/2016 05:14 PM »
Look up the old episode of Top Gear (UK) where they tried to land a stunt parachutist in the back seat of a convertible car. It took a whole day of filming before they got it right.

My bet is
A) splash the stage, write off the foam but reuse the composite structure.
B) Much less likely, snag it out of the air with a pair of helicopters. But replacing the foam might be cheaper.
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Offline Lar

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Re: Fairing reuse
« Reply #411 on: 06/03/2016 05:20 PM »
Look up the old episode of Top Gear (UK) where they tried to land a stunt parachutist in the back seat of a convertible car. It took a whole day of filming before they got it right.

My bet is
A) splash the stage, write off the foam but reuse the composite structure.
B) Much less likely, snag it out of the air with a pair of helicopters. But replacing the foam might be cheaper.

Er, splash the FAIRING... they tried the "splash the stage" thing already :)

As for the landing in a convertable, you don't really have x and y authority, all you can do is turn... with thrusters an ASDS like catcher could move in any desired direction.

I agree that replacing the foam is probably cheaper than helicopters ... especially because you have to figure out how to base them at sea since they don't have the range/loiter to fly out 500 nm, loiter around through a whole launch cycle and return.
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Offline AncientU

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Re: Fairing reuse
« Reply #412 on: 06/03/2016 05:27 PM »
Soon!

Wonder how far a self-steering chute could travel from the top of the atmosphere?
Hundreds of miles??? Seems doubtful, but gliders do travel that far from few 10k ft releases.

The chutes wouldn't come out until much lower in the atmosphere.  The ACS on the fairing is to keep it oriented until it is lower.

Understand using ACS to control orientation until it hits the top of the atmosphere, and control that part of the descent where parachutes are useless, but wondering how high the parachute could deploy and how far it could travel back toward land to see if it is possible to get back to within helecopter flight range of the launch site or where ever helos can fly from.
« Last Edit: 06/03/2016 05:29 PM by AncientU »
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Offline Chris_Pi

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Re: Fairing reuse
« Reply #413 on: 06/03/2016 06:20 PM »
Soon!

Wonder how far a self-steering chute could travel from the top of the atmosphere?
Hundreds of miles??? Seems doubtful, but gliders do travel that far from few 10k ft releases.

The chutes wouldn't come out until much lower in the atmosphere.  The ACS on the fairing is to keep it oriented until it is lower.

Understand using ACS to control orientation until it hits the top of the atmosphere, and control that part of the descent where parachutes are useless, but wondering how high the parachute could deploy and how far it could travel back toward land to see if it is possible to get back to within helecopter flight range of the launch site or where ever helos can fly from.

I was was thinking the same about the possibility for the fairing to fly itself back. It's already pretty light for it's size, Adding parachutes might be more for the steering than anything else. Paragliders https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paragliding can manage a 9:1-16:1 glide ratio. Get the parachutes open nice and high and a fairing could cover a whole lot of distance back towards land.

Offline manoweb

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Re: Fairing reuse
« Reply #414 on: 06/03/2016 06:24 PM »
especially because you have to figure out how to base them at sea since they don't have the range/loiter to fly out 500 nm, loiter around through a whole launch cycle and return.

What was ULA's plan to recover the engines then?


Offline Jim

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Re: Fairing reuse
« Reply #415 on: 06/03/2016 06:44 PM »
but wondering how high the parachute could deploy and how far it could travel back toward land to see if it is possible to get back to within helecopter flight range of the launch site or where ever helos can fly from.

It takes different chutes for different altitudes,  Chutes for landing are usually deployed low in the atmosphere, 10kft.  They have issues opening higher.  Drogues open around 50kft.  There isn't going to be a parafoil that will open at high altitudes.

Online envy887

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Re: Fairing reuse
« Reply #416 on: 06/03/2016 06:45 PM »
especially because you have to figure out how to base them at sea since they don't have the range/loiter to fly out 500 nm, loiter around through a whole launch cycle and return.

What was ULA's plan to recover the engines then?

The Falcon 9 1st stage engines and thrust structure weigh more than 12,000 kg, and Vulcan would probably be heavier. Would need multiple choppers or a heavy airplane to catch that.

Offline cambrianera

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Re: Fairing reuse
« Reply #417 on: 06/03/2016 06:59 PM »
especially because you have to figure out how to base them at sea since they don't have the range/loiter to fly out 500 nm, loiter around through a whole launch cycle and return.

What was ULA's plan to recover the engines then?

The Falcon 9 1st stage engines and thrust structure weigh more than 12,000 kg, and Vulcan would probably be heavier. Would need multiple choppers or a heavy airplane to catch that.
Nine M1D engines are about 4000 kg, octaweb and piping should be one ton.
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Offline Lar

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Re: Fairing reuse
« Reply #418 on: 06/03/2016 07:01 PM »
especially because you have to figure out how to base them at sea since they don't have the range/loiter to fly out 500 nm, loiter around through a whole launch cycle and return.

What was ULA's plan to recover the engines then?

The Falcon 9 1st stage engines and thrust structure weigh more than 12,000 kg, and Vulcan would probably be heavier. Would need multiple choppers or a heavy airplane to catch that.
We do have threads to cover SMART, probably should review those, IIRC some of these questions were answered... To this specific question I don't think the engines return nearly as far down range as a fairing does so it's within reach of a land based helo to get them.

Not sure this is the best thread but it's a start  http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=37777
This one also has a lot of good background and links to papers and presentations:  http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=38403
« Last Edit: 06/03/2016 08:29 PM by Lar »
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Offline sewebster

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Re: Fairing reuse
« Reply #419 on: 06/03/2016 08:20 PM »
I agree that replacing the foam is probably cheaper than helicopters ... especially because you have to figure out how to base them at sea since they don't have the range/loiter to fly out 500 nm, loiter around through a whole launch cycle and return.

You can do in-air refueling of helicopters.

Basing them at sea.... whoa... I mean, we just figured out how to land a simple rocket on a ship, now suddenly you're talking about moving directly to something with huge spinning blades!

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