Author Topic: Fairing reuse  (Read 551002 times)

Offline Jim

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Re: Fairing reuse
« Reply #380 on: 05/17/2016 06:29 PM »

Here's another idea from left field, is it possible there are any optical telescope resources on the Go Searcher which could resolve the fairings during the end of their flight rather than the shore based systems which obviously cant resolve the fairings with much clarity once they are 300+ miles downrange?

No, there is nothing on the boat, optical or RF.

http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=39766.msg1526042#msg1526042
« Last Edit: 05/17/2016 06:33 PM by Jim »

Offline RDMM2081

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Re: Fairing reuse
« Reply #381 on: 05/17/2016 06:47 PM »

Here's another idea from left field, is it possible there are any optical telescope resources on the Go Searcher which could resolve the fairings during the end of their flight rather than the shore based systems which obviously cant resolve the fairings with much clarity once they are 300+ miles downrange?

No, there is nothing on the boat, optical or RF.

http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=39766.msg1526042#msg1526042

Thanks for clarifying that for me. 

Can/Should they look into adding that capability, or is it presumed that the shore based optics are sufficient for them to determine what is happening to the fairings after separation well enough to inform changes to their recovery strategies?

Offline kevin-rf

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Re: Fairing reuse
« Reply #382 on: 05/17/2016 09:02 PM »
Thanks for clarifying that for me. 

Can/Should they look into adding that capability, or is it presumed that the shore based optics are sufficient for them to determine what is happening to the fairings after separation well enough to inform changes to their recovery strategies?
SpaceX when working on the Falcon recovery problem did at one point use recoverable data pods. If they wanted, they could do the same with the fairing.

They called them Talon Pods.
« Last Edit: 05/17/2016 09:04 PM by kevin-rf »
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Offline iamlucky13

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Re: Fairing reuse
« Reply #383 on: 05/18/2016 03:34 AM »
How much would a parachute, beacon, and a flotation bag add to the weight/cost?  Also, how much would a recovery boat operational costs add.  All that subtracted from the cost of the fairing? 

I'm guessing this is a bit larger than what each fairing half needs (similar size Ariane V fairing weighs 2675 kg), and it weighs 250 pounds. I'm guessing this model is static line deployed. SpaceX would need one that is mortar deployed, which will add a bit more weight. They may also need a drogue chute or ballute for stability in the upper atmosphere and initial slowing.
http://www.millsmanufacturing.com/products/cargo-parachutes/14-products/44-g-11-cargo-parachute-assembly

I'm not sure it will need a flotation bag. Most of the structure would be honeycomb, so the density should be low. I suppose bags could be used to help keep the fairing stable in the water.

I think it's generally assumed they use a cold gas thruster system to stabilize the fairing during entry. That has a weight penalty, too, but since they're already attempting re-entries, this is presumably already present. There may also be some additional TPS beyond what is normally needed for ascent.

I'm guessing all this plus integration to the fairing runs in the high 5 to low 6-figure range, not counting development costs.

It looks like offshore supply vessels like GO Searcher hire out for rates in the $10-15,000 per day range.
http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report-ongc-takes-charter-route-for-offshore-supply-vessels-1994093

So recovery costs in the 1/4 to 1/2 million dollar range don't seem inconceivable to me. There will be some refurbishment costs, too. I assume any TPS on the outside and acoustic lining on the inside will be likely places for damage. Obviously salt water exposure means a good cleaning and inspection, testing, or replacement of any parts that could corrode or be fouled by salt precipitation. My wild guesstimating leads me to think total recovery and refurbishment costs would be in the 1/2 to 1 million dollar range.

Musk's prior comment was that fairings cost "several" million dollars.

Offline Spidertracks

Re: Fairing reuse
« Reply #384 on: 05/18/2016 04:54 AM »
Spidertracks here - We're happy to donate a Spider to see if this might work.

They weigh 160g and can be fed with 10-32vDC drawing 1A every two-mins so a small battery should keep it alive long enough.

We attached one to a weather balloon recently and sent it skywards and it managed to get as high as 104,000ft with the Spider tracking every two-mins. We were able to put the Spider coords into our GPS and go right to the device when back on the ground. Video here -

But I'm also with Kevin, smoke would be a nice touch too.

Off the shelf: https://www.iridium.com/products/details/spidertracks-satellite-tracking

Quote
Spidertracks Satellite Tracking

Spidertracks is more than just a tracking system: as well as knowing exactly where people and valuable assets are at any moment in time, it can also tell you how they are. If something goes wrong, and the website loses contact with the spider device, the system will automatically send text and email alerts to the right people, including rescue services, within minutes of the accident occurring. Because the alert is generated by the system, it doesn’t rely on the device surviving an accident, so it will always be sent, enabling rescue services to locate the site quickly based on the last transmitted position. With Spidertracks, no one needs to be lost at sea, on land, or in the air again.

It combines a portable tracking unit, the Spider, with a web-based client interface, enabling users to access their flight following and tracking details from anywhere at any time via the internet. Powered by a 10 V – 32 V power source, it has no external antenna and can be moved between aircraft or vehicles, so it doesn’t require expensive installation or certification. Partnered with Iridium, it offers global coverage.

Spidertracks also offers simple two-way global communication. Customers can send and receive texts with a compatible phone from anywhere on earth, via Iridium, through the Spidertracks website—ideal for anyone who needs to communicate from a remote region without GSM/cellphone coverage.

The unit is portable, with the tracks accessed from any internet connected device, and it is AFF compliant, offering a cost-effective, simple and reliable tracking-based safety system for anyone working or traveling in remote locations or risky situations.

Problem solved. Though, adding a smoke generator and disco lights would be a nice touch.

Offline kevin-rf

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Re: Fairing reuse
« Reply #385 on: 05/18/2016 10:49 AM »
But no disco lights?
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Offline Hobbes-22

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Re: Fairing reuse
« Reply #386 on: 05/18/2016 05:24 PM »

If all the following are true, then what has stopped them before?

1)  SpaceX are and have been interested in fairing recovery
2)  The fairing's are trackable via range radar
3)  One landed intact enough to float to shore

Was the Bahamas fairing making it to shore unclaimed a case where they were simply not interested in tracking it down and attempting recovery?

What would be the point in recovering scrap?

Offline RDMM2081

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Re: Fairing reuse
« Reply #387 on: 05/18/2016 05:36 PM »

If all the following are true, then what has stopped them before?

1)  SpaceX are and have been interested in fairing recovery
2)  The fairing's are trackable via range radar
3)  One landed intact enough to float to shore

Was the Bahamas fairing making it to shore unclaimed a case where they were simply not interested in tracking it down and attempting recovery?

What would be the point in recovering scrap?

Identify weak points in the fairing design, either to strengthen those points of failure, or modify their recovery system to avoid creating loads which lead to that type of failure.

Online Lar

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Re: Fairing reuse
« Reply #388 on: 05/18/2016 05:58 PM »
Spidertracks here - We're happy to donate a Spider to see if this might work.

I would think SpaceX doesn't need a donation, they have money... (but maybe you give them one for their use in exchange for featuring them in your adverts?)

Also I think lights are better than smoke, usually smoke from electronics is not a good sign :)

Also, welcome to the forums, what an awesome first post!!!!
« Last Edit: 05/18/2016 05:58 PM by Lar »
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Offline Hobbes-22

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Re: Fairing reuse
« Reply #389 on: 05/18/2016 06:49 PM »

If all the following are true, then what has stopped them before?

1)  SpaceX are and have been interested in fairing recovery
2)  The fairing's are trackable via range radar
3)  One landed intact enough to float to shore

Was the Bahamas fairing making it to shore unclaimed a case where they were simply not interested in tracking it down and attempting recovery?

What would be the point in recovering scrap?

Identify weak points in the fairing design, either to strengthen those points of failure, or modify their recovery system to avoid creating loads which lead to that type of failure.

Sure, that has value when they start adding a recovery system to the fairing. I had the impression the Bahamas fairing (and all fairings before that) didn't have any recovery system, so the only thing they'd learn from recovering those would be the amount of damage an unbraked sea impact does. That has limited usefulness in my opinion, so to answer your question, that's what stopped them before.

Offline kevin-rf

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Re: Fairing reuse
« Reply #390 on: 05/18/2016 07:13 PM »
Sure, that has value when they start adding a recovery system to the fairing. I had the impression the Bahamas fairing (and all fairings before that) didn't have any recovery system, so the only thing they'd learn from recovering those would be the amount of damage an unbraked sea impact does. That has limited usefulness in my opinion, so to answer your question, that's what stopped them before.

Here is the odd thing about that. They attached a Go-Pro to it. A very odd thing to do if you have zero chance of getting it back. I wonder if they where hoping on an off chance of getting one back someday. And now one has washes ashore they are going, hmmm.....

I do think going from recovering a fairing to reflying it will be a stretch. You are going from a clean room environment to a swim and then have to clean it so it can again be used in a clean room. No saying it's impossible, but...
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Offline rickyramjet

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Re: Fairing reuse
« Reply #391 on: 05/19/2016 04:01 AM »
Sure, that has value when they start adding a recovery system to the fairing. I had the impression the Bahamas fairing (and all fairings before that) didn't have any recovery system, so the only thing they'd learn from recovering those would be the amount of damage an unbraked sea impact does. That has limited usefulness in my opinion, so to answer your question, that's what stopped them before.

Here is the odd thing about that. They attached a Go-Pro to it. A very odd thing to do if you have zero chance of getting it back. I wonder if they where hoping on an off chance of getting one back someday. And now one has washes ashore they are going, hmmm.....

I do think going from recovering a fairing to reflying it will be a stretch. You are going from a clean room environment to a swim and then have to clean it so it can again be used in a clean room. No saying it's impossible, but...
I would have assumed there was live video being transmitted back to SpaceX, that they wouldn't have relied on random chance to provide them a video.  Also, the fairing was built in a non-clean room environment, so I see no problem reusing one after clean up.  Perhaps they hope to snatch the fairings before they reach the ocean with some type of mid-air retrieval, so no salt water contamination.

Online envy887

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Re: Fairing reuse
« Reply #392 on: 05/19/2016 02:06 PM »
...
Perhaps they hope to snatch the fairings before they reach the ocean with some type of mid-air retrieval, so no salt water contamination.

This seems like the most reusability-friendly solution. Surviving re-entry is hard enough, no point in building it to survive impact with the ocean if they don't have to. A small chute, a long line, and a rather large helicopter should do. But first they have to get it down the lower atmosphere in one piece and track where it's going accurately enough to be there waiting.

Offline LouScheffer

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Re: Fairing reuse
« Reply #393 on: 05/19/2016 07:15 PM »
You are going from a clean room environment to a swim and then have to clean it so it can again be used in a clean room. No saying it's impossible, but...
The people who work in a clean room do exactly this every day.  Plus people are harder to pressure-wash or steam clean than fairings.

Offline Kaputnik

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Re: Fairing reuse
« Reply #394 on: 05/19/2016 07:28 PM »
...
Perhaps they hope to snatch the fairings before they reach the ocean with some type of mid-air retrieval, so no salt water contamination.

This seems like the most reusability-friendly solution. Surviving re-entry is hard enough, no point in building it to survive impact with the ocean if they don't have to. A small chute, a long line, and a rather large helicopter should do. But first they have to get it down the lower atmosphere in one piece and track where it's going accurately enough to be there waiting.

I don't have the numbers to hand... what is the downrange impact distance of the fairing? A big helicopter has a working radius of aronud 200nm so might not be enough to reach the area. Would this need a ship-based helicopter?
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Offline kevin-rf

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Re: Fairing reuse
« Reply #395 on: 05/19/2016 08:23 PM »
You are going from a clean room environment to a swim and then have to clean it so it can again be used in a clean room. No saying it's impossible, but...
The people who work in a clean room do exactly this every day.  Plus people are harder to pressure-wash or steam clean than fairings.
Never seen anyone pressure wash sound insulation like what is found inside a fairing... My point is that the fairing will be encasing something that has lived all it's life in a clean room. The inside of a fairing is not a solid hard surface that you can just apply some elbow grease to.
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Offline D_Dom

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Re: Fairing reuse
« Reply #396 on: 05/19/2016 08:42 PM »
Maybe, if you planned on R&R of the insulation? Nooks and Crannies could be avoided with sufficient detail design.
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Offline LouScheffer

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Re: Fairing reuse
« Reply #397 on: 05/20/2016 12:17 AM »
You are going from a clean room environment to a swim and then have to clean it so it can again be used in a clean room. No saying it's impossible, but...
The people who work in a clean room do exactly this every day.  Plus people are harder to pressure-wash or steam clean than fairings.
Never seen anyone pressure wash sound insulation like what is found inside a fairing... My point is that the fairing will be encasing something that has lived all it's life in a clean room. The inside of a fairing is not a solid hard surface that you can just apply some elbow grease to.
Sound insulation is not very structurally strong, or heat resistant, or wind proof.  I would guess they would strip off the soft stuff, carefully wash and inspect the structural parts, then re-apply the soundproofing.  Most of the cost of the fairing has to be in the large composite pieces, not the sound insulation.

Online envy887

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Re: Fairing reuse
« Reply #398 on: 05/20/2016 12:21 AM »
...
Perhaps they hope to snatch the fairings before they reach the ocean with some type of mid-air retrieval, so no salt water contamination.

This seems like the most reusability-friendly solution. Surviving re-entry is hard enough, no point in building it to survive impact with the ocean if they don't have to. A small chute, a long line, and a rather large helicopter should do. But first they have to get it down the lower atmosphere in one piece and track where it's going accurately enough to be there waiting.

I don't have the numbers to hand... what is the downrange impact distance of the fairing? A big helicopter has a working radius of aronud 200nm so might not be enough to reach the area. Would this need a ship-based helicopter?

Or a barge based helo...

Offline bioelectromechanic

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Re: Fairing reuse
« Reply #399 on: 05/28/2016 09:49 AM »
Fairing sep earlier on this one?
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